From Earth orbit to the Moon and Mars, explore the world of human spaceflight with NASA each week on the official podcast of the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas. Listen to in-depth conversations with the astronauts, scientists and engineers who make it possible.
On episode 435, ISS National Laboratory Public Affairs and Outreach Lead Patrick O’Neill reflects on 15 years of science aboard the space station and looks ahead to what’s next. This episode was recorded August 12, 2026.
Transcript
Gary Jordan
Houston We Have a Podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, episode 435: National Lab 15. I’m Gary Jordan, and I’ll be your host today. On this podcast, we bring in the experts, scientists, engineers, and astronauts, all to let you know what’s going on in the world of human spaceflight and more.
The Center for the Advancement of Science in Space, or CASIS, is celebrating 15 years of managing the International Space Station U.S. National Laboratory. In those 15 years, there have been 1000s of experiments on the space station that have contributed to advancing science for space exploration and the benefit of humanity, economic growth, and inspiration. On this episode, we go back in time to the beginnings of the ISS National Lab, reflect on some of the accomplishments and discuss what’s in store for the future. Our guest today is Patrick O’Neill, Public Affairs and Outreach Lead of the ISS National Laboratory, who we’re excited to welcome back as a guest of Houston We Have a Podcast after more than eight and a half years, first appearing for Episode 29.
Lots to discuss. Let’s get right into it.
Enjoy.
Gary Jordan
Patrick O’Neill, welcome back to Houston We Have a Podcast. It has been a while.
Patrick O’Neill
It has been almost 10 years, I want to say! This is- We were chatting about it earlier, and I was even looking at some of the the previous broadcasts where it was season one, and now here we are in season…
Gary Jordan
Funny enough, it’s- we’re still the season one technically, but we just, because we’re just so continuous. But you could say our- we have passed nine years.
Patrick O’Neill
It’s almost like we have continuous presence on the International Space Station in the same capacity, right?
Gary Jordan
Continuous presence on the audio landscape, if you will.
Well, for this one, we’re going to be talking about the ISS US National Laboratory, and when we last talked, we were I think maybe seven or eight years into CASIS, into the ISS National Lab. Part of the reason we have you on here today is one, you’re in town. Two, we are talking about 15 years of the ISS National Lab. We’re doing a look back. We’re going to talk about some of the highlights of everything that the U.S. National Lab has accomplished, but why don’t we start with a little bit of background? The early, early years. Tell us about the the how this all began. We’re talking about the ISS U.S. National Lab. What is it?
Patrick O’Neill
Yeah, so I get a paycheck every two weeks from the Center for the Advancement of Science in Space. That is known as CASIS, and CASIS has been designated to manage the ISS National Laboratory through a cooperative agreement with our friends at NASA. A little bit of background on the ISS National Lab: It was designated a national laboratory in 2005 by our friends in Congress, and the reason for that was because in the early origins of building the space station, when the astronauts did have a little bit of time to support investigations and research projects, you could just see that that microgravity environment had a profound impact on what was being done from a scientific perspective. And it got our friends in Congress thinking, “Well, what if we, you know, opened access, opportunity? What if we gave other researchers that maybe were not NASA affiliated, but whether it’s researchers from academia or private sector entities, nonprofits. The ability to leverage this space station for Earth benefit, what could we learn from that? Could we create more effective therapeutics? Could we create more effective consumer goods?” And so that was the genesis of them designating the ISS a national laboratory.
Let’s fast forward from 2005 to 2010. There was a NASA Authorization Act that said that while we have this national lab, we need somebody to manage this national laboratory, and it can’t be NASA. Because NASA’s role is to focus more on living and working in space, better understanding technologies that will allow for us to go beyond low Earth orbit to places like the Moon or Mars or beyond. So we need someone else, a nonprofit entity, to manage this national laboratory that doesn’t have a dog in the fight. And so the Center for the Advancement of Science in Space is a brainchild of the state of Florida. They submitted their name into this this RFP that came out as part of this NASA Authorization Act. In 2011 we were selected, and then we signed our cooperative agreement with NASA on August 31st, 2011, which means that this month marks our 15th anniversary of managing the ISS National Lab.
Gary Jordan
We are recording this at the right time, then.
Patrick O’Neill
We are, yeah! So again, thank you so much for the opportunity to be here. And again, to your point, there’s been so much that’s happened over the last 15 years, and to just kind of you know kind of look back at that and say, “man, the places we’ve been, the people we’ve engaged with the research that’s been done on station,” to be in this forum with you to be able to talk about that it’s fantastic so thank you.
Gary Jordan
We have a lot to talk about a lot of investigations and examples I want to keep keep on the early years too and just talk about a national lab right it might be something that of course in the scientific community is very maybe commonplace because you. Talk about opening access to researchers around the country, around the world. It’s not necessarily a unique thing that only is in space, right? There’s national labs all over, but tell us about the model of national labs and why the U.S. National Lab on Station is a little different.
Patrick O’Neill
So this could be a this could be a while for a conversation. So most of the national labs are part of the Department of Energy system, and there’s obviously a lot of money that is allocated towards these facilities that are open to researchers around the nation that are focused on specific types of R and D. Now that being said, this is a very different national laboratory because we’re not in the United States; we are off our planet, which really separates things from the ability to to leverage this. First and foremost, if you want to launch an investigation to this national laboratory that is off our planet, for our planet, you have to launch it in flight certified hardware. That’s difficult in and of itself because you don’t have that in a normal laboratory setting. On top of that, now you have to be able to find a rocket where you can play the game of Tetris, where this this investigation that’s in flight-certified hardware is now lumped alongside a variety of other investigations that are all going to be flying up to the space station. Then the next component is who’s going to be supporting that investigation? How is that investigation going to be worked on on the space station? Is it going to be supported by one of the visiting astronauts? Is it going to be something that is put into an autonomous platform? All of these things really factor in. So if you’re a researcher, it’s it’s it kind of looks like it’s a very daunting experience for you to be able to launch something to space.
But this is the beauty of the national lab construct and working alongside our friends at NASA is we take a lot of that hard work out of the equation for you, so that you only have to focus on your investigation. The ISS National Lab works alongside dozens of companies that have flight-certified hardware, where they can take your concept, put it into this engineering vehicle, and then help to send it to space. And then we can also work with the astronauts so that they understand how to be able to perform your investigation while it’s on Station. So all of that combined makes this a very different, novel environment for you to want to do something in a national lab setting that you actually don’t have the ability to go to and support yourself. So again, that’s a very, very differing, a differentiating factor compared to what we have with a lot of these other national labs that are supported by the Department of Energy. But I would also argue too that that’s what makes ours so doggone cool!
Gary Jordan
Yeah, it’s the it’s the only U.S. National Lab that has that microgravity aspect.
Patrick O’Neill
The only national lab in space, and you know, again, we’re incredibly fortunate to be able to manage that. But again, it’s it’s it’s been a process to help educate a lot of these these researchers on how you can use station and why you would want to use station.
Gary Jordan
It is unique, right? I feel like if you were a researcher, you would want access to the facilities, the unique facilities that are part of a national lab somewhere, and you would want to go there and have your hands on it. This is a completely different paradigm, where you want to have you know you want to have this research in the microgravity environment, but it doesn’t necessarily mean it grants you a ticket to space, right? You have to hand that over to an astronaut to conduct, come up with processes, procedures for them to be able to successfully conduct it, and maybe not all of them are in the science community. You know, you have all kinds of astronauts, pilots, you have engineers. You know, not necessarily scientists, but they’re trained. They’re trained to do it. So you gotta, you gotta think about it in a very unique way on how to actually- and this is where the management of it comes in, you’re managing expectations, you’re managing the relationships, you’re in the middle, you’re making it all happen.
Patrick O’Neill
Well, and to your point too, in a lot of the conversations I’ve had with astronauts over the years, and I’m sure that you’ve had the similar ones where there is a profound sense of stewardship that they have in being able to support these investigations. And so when they end up talking with some of the research teams, and maybe we’ll talk a little bit more about how we’ve engaged over the years with the research community to to help educate them on why they would want to do something on station. But one of the things that astronauts have always said is, “astronaut-proof it as best you can.” And and what I mean by that is you know to your point, let’s detail every aspect of it because not everyone. If you’re doing a life science investigation, not everyone is a microbiologist or a medical doctor or a PhD. To your point, sometimes they are pilots, they are engineers. So let’s make sure that we engineer this properly so that they could be best fit for executing your investigation to its fullest capability. Thus, you know, really promoting the notion of scientific integrity.
Gary Jordan
Yes, exactly. And and so so let’s dive into that concept. The concept that this national lab is a little different. You want to maybe perhaps sell the idea of microgravity in a sense that, like you said, maybe sell is not the word. Educate might be a better word because the research community might not understand all the benefits that microgravity and the space environment can have, and why they would want to come up with some sort of concept to to be in this space.
So, how do you do that? How do you how do you market? How do you drive the interest? How do you engage with different companies, researchers, institutions to let them know that this is a possibility for them?
Patrick O’Neill
So that’s a great question, and I think that that really dives into. Evolution of how we have managed this national laboratory because early on, when CASIS assumed management of the ISS National Lab, I think that there is this notion that everyone is going to be like, “Man, I just want to send my stuff my stuff to science or to the space station, and nobody really knew that that was a viable option. So it took a lot of going to conferences, events, and trying to shake hands and really meet with a lot of the research community to let them know first and foremost, yes, there is a space station because a lot of times they didn’t really understand that. And then, second of all, you can send your research to the space station.
And then you also talked about the selling aspect of it. A lot of people would say, “Man, that sounds really cool and exciting. How much is this going to cost?” And that’s the beauty again of the national lab concept: the ride up, the ride down. The astronaut supporting your investigation on the space station was assumed by NASA. So that is a great level of incentivization right off of the bat, where that money is not going to be passed off to a company that wants to do an investigation on station because this is a government-supported facility. And I think that once they realized that that was part of the equation, they’re like, “Wow, well, why would we not want to do something on the space station?”
And so I think that that really led to a lot of positive conversations in the first couple of years. Again, it was a build-up process. I mean, there there had never been a national lab construct in space before. There had never been the idea of trying to quote unquote sell or incentivize people to use the space station. So it took a couple of years, I think, for for people to really understand the capabilities of station, the facilities that were available, and then ultimately the the benefits of why you would want to do something in space. But once we started to get a couple of those wins, it really it was a cascading effect where it it really helped to drive a lot of opportunities, partnerships, and research associations that have stayed with us through the duration of our managing the national lab.
Gary Jordan
See, it’s interesting in the national lab landscape, right, you are the new kid on the block. You’re trying to say, you know, like there might be researchers that are familiar with all kinds of facilities around the globe that have these very unique pieces of hardware to do their research. Now you have to you have to educate this whole community, right? And you said it was a slow process.
Let’s talk about some of those early wins. What were some of the some of those first successes that really helped to build that reputation? That hey, this is a national lab, and this is something that you can utilize for research and finding out very cool things in the scientific community.
Patrick O’Neill
So one of the areas I think that we’ve seen a lot of interest in over the years is in you know biomedical research, pharmaceutical research. With that, we’ve seen a lot of the major pharmaceutical companies like a Merck or an Eli Lilly or a GlaxoSmithKline, a Bristol Myers Squibb, they became very early adapters, if you will, to leveraging the space station, and I think that that also helps to provide some level of “well, if they’re doing it, then why wouldn’t we do that?” If they see the value of sending multiple investigations, and it seemed as though a lot of these companies were focused on protein crystallization early on. Protein crystal growth is something that has been in normal laboratory settings, and also has been something that’s been worked on on the shuttle program, as well as early origins of the space station program before there was that national lab concept. So this was an area where they all wanted to try to dive into, if you will, an attack so that they could create more effective therapeutics for patients here on the ground, as well as astronauts living and working off our planet. And so I would use Merck as a great example because they really did kind of set the foundation for a lot of other companies that, from a pharmaceutical standpoint, that wanted to do R&D on station.
Now that’s what I would call more traditional research. I think that you you hear again a lot of pharmaceutical companies or life science investigators leveraging station, but part of our job too is also to look at non-traditional partners that want to push the boundaries of science and innovation for maybe enhancing consumer products for us here on the ground. And a couple of interesting ones that happened for us. One of them was Procter & Gamble right off the bat, where they were looking at colloidal investigations that are now associated with consumer goods like Febreze that you can actually use in in your house. Conversely, Cobra Puma Golf. Like you would not normally think of a golf company that wants to do research in space, but also golf is a 20 plus billion dollar a year industry. So when you take a step back, you’re like, if they can find a way to create a more innovative or a more effective golf club for that large community. Well, then that’s going to be something that’s quite marketable, and also something that really helps to set station away from how you can do things in a normal laboratory setting.
And then, lastly, I would look at Adidas. They they were a fun one for us to work with because they launched multiple investigations to the space station. One of them was looking at trying to create more effective, longer-lasting shoes for those that are avid runners. But then another fun one too is so that was one investigation for consumer goods for shoes. But we just had the World Cup, and the World Cup was influenced by a ball that had a spin dispersion study that was on Station from Adidas, and Adidas was the maker of that soccer ball. And so you could actually make the argument that this past World Cup again had direct influence from Adidas and the research that they did on the Space Station, so that it could create a more effective ball for the players to be using on the ground. And it’s now going to be something that’s going to be available for consumers across the world to be able to purchase themselves.
So those are like examples of traditional as well as very non-traditional, but all of that together, like it takes a village. So if you have those fun projects, then now that creates opportunities for other research investigative teams to think about how they can use this orbiting laboratory.
Gary Jordan
Yeah, I wonder, was it was it difficult to bridge the gap between the traditional? Maybe there was had been protein crystal growth experiments prior to even the when a national lab was established, so they already had some semblance of hey, this is a possibility for us to continue that research, or maybe I can do my own. So you’re getting those early wins, but then how do you bridge the gap between you know maybe there’s some some aspect of microgravity that is known, and therefore a company may want to go in and continue that research versus this novel concept that maybe a company or an institution may not have even thought of microgravity as a possibility. Now you’re really trying to bridge the gap of hey, this there’s there’s more to this than just what has been accomplished in the past.
Patrick O’Neill
So great question because there’s multiple layers associated with this. What makes bringing some of those non-traditional partners on in early stages of station a little bit more difficult is because NASA is a is a as a federal institution. You know, there’s there’s limitations on what you can do from a marketing perspective. If you have a non-traditional partner, sometimes they want to bring marketing into the equation, and obviously, when we’re using something like the space station, which is an incredibly expensive asset for humanity across the board, we want to ensure that anything that goes up there has scientific viability. If you want to tell a unique story, you’re more than welcome to do so, but it has to be fact-based, and it has to be something where that does not override the actual R&D. And so, I think that part of the learning curve of managing the national lab is learning how to engage with those non-traditional partners to ensure that the message does not get lost, that the science doesn’t get lost in them trying to communicate that they are doing something different that helps to separate them from their competition. We want to focus on the results that derive from what it is that they did in space on that space station, and how that is helping to influence their product design in the future, and so I think that those were elements where we always needed to be mindful of, because again, we we want to make sure that anything that is being discussed about the space station is done on you know on on the level and on the facts.
Gary Jordan
Very good. All right, and so I think an important aspect of this is that you are you are managing the national lab component, but one of those those early wins is making sure that you are not doing so maybe in isolation and partnering with other organizations to expand the breadth of, you know, access and and knowledge of this capability. NIH and NSF were some of those early partnerships. Can you talk talk about those and expand on some of those partnerships?
Patrick O’Neill
Absolutely. So the importance of the National Institutes of Health and the National Science Foundation is that they support fundamental research on the ground, and now through the collaborations with the ISS National Lab and CASIS, they are able to support fundamental investigations that are happening off our planet. Our budget, from a CASIS perspective, has been fairly minimal to the point where we can we can fund some investigations, but we don’t have a robust budget to be able to fund a lot of them. Whereas the beauty of an NSF or an NIH is that’s what they’re focused on. They are focused on trying to provide that government incentive of funding critical investigations that can lead to profound impacts into the scientific community that might eventually lead to applied or other companies building on what it is that has been done from a fundamental perspective. So these relationships were critically important for us because we’re having these fundamental investigations that are flying to station. So with NIH, it was looking at tissue chips in biomedical research. With NSF, it was biotechnology, but then it also has fluid dynamics as well. So we really encompass a lot of different scientific variables with these respective partners. But because of their funding, I want to say it’s been around 100 projects in total. Like these are projects that are flying that are also, because most of them are academia, they’re also trying to get their their science published in peer-reviewed journals. So they are imparting that scientific knowledge across the board, so that other companies or other researchers can build on that. And so that’s that’s the critical importance of fundamental research on station is that it leads to applications. It leads towards you know investigations that are much more driven, that could could lead to a true product that is being derived.
Gary Jordan
Hmm. So you have these you have these early collaborations. You have these partnerships that help you to expand and then you know one of those, the funding is obviously a huge component of this, right? Because it’s not like you can just kind of walk and walk into a lab and say, “Hey, here’s my experiment. Thank you. I’ll take that off your hands and ship it up to space for you.” No, it’s it’s this it’s this it’s this whole process, and so you’re working with those. Now, I think there’s also maybe new markets and and startups that are part of this too. So so not just these larger organizations, but maybe you’re you’re trying to build up even even some of the newer again non traditional markets. How how has that influenced in the expansion of CASIS?
Patrick O’Neill
Yeah. So the startup community has been a very large entity that has leveraged the space station over our years, and it’s one where we’ve put a lot of emphasis around that, because when we talked earlier about the idea of enabling access and opportunity for station, it’s not just for Fortune 500 companies. It’s for those innovative startups. It’s for nonprofits. It’s for academia. And so those those startups oftentimes, what do they need? They need support in being able to get their project to the Space Station. They might have a great idea or a great concept, but they don’t necessarily have the funding or the the mechanisms to be able to support some of the the hardware engineering that might be a third party entity that is costs beyond their control. So we started to work with a variety of startup accelerator programs. One of them in particular was with MassChallenge, which I believe was one of the largest startup accelerator programs in the world, where us as well as Boeing put together what we call the Technology in Space Prize, wherein we would fund up to $500,000 per year for multiple projects that could fly to the space station from the startup community. That has then led to dozens of startups that have now flown their projects to station, and also on top of the two, what we love is that a lot of these companies not only they’re flying one time, but they’re flying multiple times.
There’s there’s one company called Land Division. They have now flown to the space station under national lab sponsorship nine times, and we found them through the MassChallenge Startup Accelerator program. So they’ve actually flown more than anybody else has under our sponsorship, and I think it gives a great idea of why we like startups so much because they have the ability to do great things, and so this company, for instance, they are looking at trying to create or manufacture a retinal implant in the space environment and bring that down for patients on Earth from suffering from macular degeneration. And their thought is that I guess the way that it works is you have films, if you will, that layer on top of each other in an Earth-based environment where you have gravity as a variable, there’s the potential for one of those films to maybe not be in alignment the way that you want it to. And if one of those films is off, then that means that the implant is not going to work as in the way that you want. Conversely, if you do it in a space environment where you no longer have gravity as a variable, maybe they can layer more effectively, and because of that, you can now manufacture that in space, bring that back down to the patient on Earth, and voila, they can see more effectively. So that’s a great example of one of the startups that we’ve been very, very proud to work with over the years.
On top of that, too, it’s not just that when you are a startup, you just you fly and then you know you you focus on what’s next. For a lot of these startups, they’re trying to get additional funding, so private investment. So from startups that have leveraged the ISS National Lab post flight, they have been able to ascertain nearly $3 billion in additional private investment, which allows for them to either think about doing research in space further or expanding their business model based on what it is that they’ve already learned in space.
And one final thing I will say about startups, because our leadership is is very keen to this is because of the success that we had working with so many startups in the past. We actually created our own startup accelerator program called Orbital Edge, wherein we are working with a variety of venture capitalists where they have equity stake in companies that are part of this program. So we have just selected eight companies. This is the second year we’ve done our Orbital Edge Accelerator program, we’ve just selected eight companies that are part of this cohort, and so they are going to be moving forward in their ability to now launch a project to the space station while also having the ability to get private equity funding, mentorship, and learn how to grow their business, hopefully in space. So this is exciting times for us, where again we not only saw the value of startups from being able to partner with other entities, but now it’s us creating our own environment, our own space for these startups to grow and to thrive.
Gary Jordan
See, this is an important concept right here because we’ve been talking about research and the and the research community, and of course, there’s you know your traditional aspects of of you know universities, you know academia that that have these research projects and they want access to national labs. What you’re talking about is is another aspect of this, which is very very important, and this is important to NASA as well, is this idea of commercialization, right? This is where we’re this is this has been a slow. I want to- I was about to say slow, but man, has it been rapid! It’s been you know maybe like a decade or so. But from commercial crew commercialization, the bringing in different companies, and really trying to make space a robust economy, right? Because ultimately. Space station, as beautiful as a platform as it is, it is not meant to last forever. So one of the things that we’re doing is, well, what comes next? Well, why don’t we have companies take on a lot of the work to build stations, to maintain stations, to create a market. And this is where, and this is part of what you’re talking about here is is trying to have companies and institutions realize that the low Earth orbit, that the microgravity environment, that there is economic viability to it.
And so you have these startups, you have you know these investors. You’re talking about you know all of this money going into the low Earth orbit economy. This is a huge part of building something that can ultimately be sustained, like we said, ISS, the International Space Station, beautiful platform, not meant to last forever. How do we sustain this momentum? Because what we do know is the reason that we’ve built, that we’ve spent the time building this these relationships and bringing in all of these institutions is not to just have it have it you know just end abruptly right? It’s the idea that we are building something that we are building something to sustain. So so how has how has the ISS National Lab been a very important player in building this a space a robust space economy?
Patrick O’Neill
So that is a great segue. Love that because right in the back of my mind, I was thinking right off the bat: is when CASIS assumed management of the ISS National Lab in 2011, there were two commercially owned facilities that were on the space station. Now we have more than two dozen, and that does two things. One, it now has a robust, diverse portfolio of research that can be performed on the space station, and that you have these facilities that can that can enable that. Conversely, to your point, it also allows for these companies to launch their facilities, to validate their facilities, to build business models, and get an understanding of what the use case might be on, in low Earth orbit, so that eventually, when we do go to commercial destinations in low Earth orbit, these facilities can move over. These business concepts can move over, and you just have this peaceful transition, if you will, of of research power. And so that I think that that’s the beauty of this space station and through the national lab is again you have a lot of these companies that have the ability to test, validate, verify, and then also grow their own customer base.
So early on, it was CASIS doing a lot of the quote unquote business development for the space station and for the national lab. Now what you have is you have these companies that have their own facilities on station. They have the ability to go and quote unquote hunt for their own food. They can go build their own customer base. And in some ways, we’re like proud parents, where we kind of sit back and say, “This is great. You’re growing up, and you have the ability now to understand who to target, why to target, and how to target them, and you’re having success doing that.”
And again, as we move beyond this space station, that’s going to be something that’s going to be critically important for a lot of those companies is to continue to build that that that pipeline of research, and so to me, if I look at the overall legacy of the space station, I think that you’re spot on. Where you know our role was to enable access and opportunity, and to grow a robust and and diverse, sustainable market economy in low Earth orbit. But the only way that you’re going to do that is by having this test kitchen, if you will, and that’s what this space station has been for the better part of 25 plus years, and with CASIS managing the ISS National Lab for more than 15 years, hopefully we’re putting ourselves in a position to be successful when we do deorbit this platform.
Gary Jordan
I think, and that right there, the the length of time, and we’re celebrating 15 years as part of this discussion. But that length of time is so critically important because an economy doesn’t just happen overnight. You can’t just say, “And now there is an economy, right? We’re gonna try to enable this.” It takes time. It takes effort to build something like that. And like you said, it’s you know, first we were talking about the early years of of the national lab, and there was this this element of education because you had to start, you had to build a foundation, and just let people know that this was an option. And you said even in the community, people didn’t even know there was a space station, right? Now, you have these facilities, these companies that are you. You can leave the the hunting, like you said, to them. You know that you have you have educated them on the value. They understand the value. They’ve invested in in capabilities and facilities in orbit, and they want to continue it too. Because you know we’re talking about commercial destinations of these orbiting platforms. They want their facilities on their platform, whether it’s a centrifuge or a glove box or LED lights or you know an external capability to just expose to vacuum, whatever it may be, there’s all these facilities on station. But to translate that to something else is so critically important when you talk about the length of time. So in that length of time, we talked about an economy. We talked about the businesses. I think a key aspect of this, and where and where this is something that that is important to NASA as well, and one of those key anchors as to why we do what we do is- of course, you could talk about the the logical, the you know we’re gonna we’re you know developing science and capabilities, expanding knowledge. You could talk about the the economical aspects, businesses growing the knowledge and base of who is ultimately contributing to low Earth orbit research. But at the end of the day, you know, you talk about length of time. You want to also excite young young people to ultimately contribute. If you want to build an economy, you want young people to eventually have careers and and be inspired by this effort, and then eventually, you know, study in school and and really get excited about these opportunities, and ultimately contribute to it. Inspiration, engagement with students has is is a big part of what we do, and I think, of course, is what ISS National Lab’s doing as well.
Patrick O’Neill
Absolutely, yeah. And you know, to your point, inspiring the next generation of researchers and explorers is a critical component of what it is that we have done over the last 15 years, we’ve launched hundreds of student-led investigations. Some of them are, you know, MixStix projects or autonomous projects. Some of them are like hardcore genetics experiments too. I mean, it really does span the the gamut as far as R&D is concerned. But I think that what’s also important about a lot of these education programs that we have been associated with over the years is that it gives them an understanding that yeah, we all might want to be an astronaut, but not everyone’s going to be an astronaut. That being said, this does take a village for us to be able to launch something to space, to be able to have a space station sustained in the first place, and then to be able to launch an investigation. So maybe maybe I won’t be an astronaut, but maybe I could be an engineer, maybe I could be a researcher, maybe I could be a scientist, maybe I could be even a communicator, for that matter. It takes all kinds. And so I think that that’s been really exciting for us to have the opportunity to work alongside a lot of these programs to really drive the inspiration of of what’s possible when you go beyond the boundaries of of Earth horizons.
But I think on top of that too, we’ve also had the chance to work with some pretty interesting and novel partners that help to drive what’s happening on the space station because of their vast audience to begin with. And I’ll give you a couple of fun examples. So Nickelodeon, I think that most people are familiar with their slime. We like to call it non-Newtonian fluidics in space. But one of the- obviously we see a lot of water or fluids that are being transferred in space, but what happens when you have something that’s a little bit more viscous? You know, how does that react in a space environment? Does that open up avenues for us to better understand how those types of properties would work on this space station or future space platforms? So Nickelodeon had this idea of, could we slime an astronaut in space? And I said, “Well, that might be a bridge too far, but that’s an interesting concept for us to explore.” Like, what would happen if an astronaut or something on station came into contact with a viscous property like that? Would it expand around it? Would it just bounce off of it? Would it just you know act like you know normal water would be? And so we finally had the opportunity to do this, and it was performed in front of you know millions of children through the Nickelodeon’s Kids Choice Awards. But you know, I think that that’s a fun way to get people thinking about this is different. You know, doing something in space is completely different than what it is that we are associated with here in a normal laboratory setting, or just what you’re seeing in your household on a daily basis.
We’ve also had fun collaborations with entities like a Barbie, where we had multiple Barbie dolls that were launched at the space station. As I mentioned earlier, not everyone’s going to be an astronaut, so what we did with Barbie is we put them in strategic locations throughout the space station, looking at facilities or looking at you know science experiments and trying to create curriculum that showcased these are types of careers that could coincide with somebody that’s doing something like this. And it was also done too with the intention of inspiring young women towards STEM and STEAM initiatives. So again, you know, I think that there’s been a lot of great collaborations we’ve done over the years where it’s helped to bring millions of additional eyes and ears towards what’s happening on the space station and how you can also get involved in this growing space economy.
Gary Jordan
I had the pleasure of so so you talked early in the conversation about conferences and so one of the conferences that we work on together is this ISS R&D really really cool conference because you know we get to it’s it’s it’s really you can visualize the community, right? We’re talking about it now, but you’re actually shaking hands with people, and and and you’re building this excitement. And I remember listening to some some presentations from students for the genes in space program, and there was this competition, and and ultimately a winner. But just how invested and how how just intelligent these kids are, and and just and ultimately not just proposing something, but coming coming up with something that has potential, that has value, and building on that about you know gene expression and all of these different studies that is unique to the microgravity environment.
Patrick O’Neill
The first CRISPR investigative. I want to say too was a genes in space project that was supported by astronaut Kate Rubins.
Gary Jordan
That’s right. Yes, sequencing genes. Yes. Right. Yeah. Very very cool. Yeah. So so just seeing and and you know it’s one thing to talk about the excitement and and but but to visualize it is something something very very unique. Just to see how excited they are and yes, ultimately at the end of the day, the goal is: this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. I want to be a part of this. It’s you know we talk about building something that is can ultimately be sustained.
And so with that, let’s go into you know what we have left, what’s next, right? So so we’re talking about we mentioned a couple of times space stations not meant to last forever, but you know we talked about the value of just these 15 years of National Lab, even more than that of sustained human presence, more than 25 of sustained human presence in space. So we still have we still have life left, and it’s not and it’s not ramping down. We’re really trying to make the most out of it. With that in mind, how is this national lab making the most out of station.
Patrick O’Neill
So, what I would say first and foremost is that during our 15 years of managing the ISS National Lab, we have greatly increased demand and throughput to the point now where we have a robust backlog of individuals that are trying to leverage the space station, which is exactly what you would want! You know, we we we don’t want to launch these rockets and have empty space, and that has no longer been the case for for many many years because of the collaboration that we have had alongside NASA to help drive interest and awareness and utilization of station.
What I would say about the remaining years of the space station is it’s going to be very busy, as you said. And on top of that, though, at this juncture, the science that we are selecting, the science that’s going, most of it builds off of previous investigations. We’re not normally seeing you know companies launching for the first time and the last time. We’re now seeing companies that are launching for the third, fourth, fifth, sixth time. So they’re just continuing to build on the the research that has been ascertained on previous missions, and I think that that’s going to coincide with having the best science, like the the best discoveries that we can have, that will lead us into that next generation of what future space platforms look like, and also give us a really good idea about where the ripe areas of R&D are at for these companies to be able to build their own business models again, as we alluded to, or for researchers to say, I want to keep expanding on this.
You know, this space station. Maybe we have limited capabilities as far as manufacturing is concerned. But who’s to say that one of these future space platforms will have robust manufacturing capabilities? And because of that, I want to learn as much as I can on this space station, so that when I do go to that space station, and maybe it’s a different model, maybe a different makeup. I can maximize that to my my capabilities and either create more effective profits for us here on the ground or products. So I would say that you know again the remaining years of station are going to be fruitful as far as research is concerned, and the reason for that is because of the shoulders of what we’ve been able to stand on from the research that’s been done over the last 15 to even 25 years.
Gary Jordan
And so you talk about the remaining years of station, but you also mentioned building, you know, having these facilities and capabilities that go beyond station. What about CASIS? What’s the plan for CASIS? Is is there a plan for CASIS to continue beyond station?
Patrick O’Neill
So as of right now, we have a cooperative agreement with NASA that is through 2030. So our job is to utilize the space station to its fullest capabilities until we have exhausted that contract. And so, at that point in time, we’ll we’ll kind of you know maybe reevaluate. Maybe I’ll have to go get a real job. But in the meantime, I would simply say that you know our job is to fulfill the needs of the American taxpayer by leveraging this national laboratory by ensuring that we select the best science and that we provide the best support that we can to our hardware partners. And again, as of right now, that’s through 2030. But we’ll see where the chips fall, where where they may from there beyond that.
Gary Jordan
All right. Well, yeah, certainly not the end. You know, we’re gonna we’re gonna go out with a bang. But looking back at 15 of 15 years for, and just thinking about we we we talked from the from its initial conception and education all the way to building this expansive this expansive list, and you even mentioned a backlog. That’s how much interest there is. There’s a backlog of folks that want to go to the station. And there’s these repeated experiments, more data is is fantastic for having more robust science. So, in terms of looking back on the 15 years, looking from the beginning to where we are now, let’s talk lessons learned for a second. Let’s talk about what you know, what what are some of the things that you look back on and say this was good and this could be improved?
Patrick O’Neill
Wow. So I we we talked about it a little bit earlier, and my job’s different. I mean, as as a communicator, as a as a PR person, you know, I think that one of the the fun aspects of my job is to work alongside these companies that want to tell unique narratives. And I think, as I alluded to, you know, making sure that we do not allow for that narrative to get in front of the science. And I think that in the early origins there were a couple of instances where, because we wanted to work alongside large, recognizable companies, perhaps they took the narrative in a direction that maybe was a bridge too far. And we had to learn through the hard ways of no, no, no, no, this this is the space station. This is a research platform, and because of that, we need to focus always on the research first, the marketing second.
Gary Jordan
I want to end with the thought of with more personal aspect of your contributions to the ISS National Lab. You know, you’ve been talking about CASIS, right? But you have been with CASIS for a long time, and have been a part of these conversations, have gone to the conferences, have put in the hard work to to really try to build something that ultimately I think you personally can be proud of, of course, the of course the institution. But looking back at your own career and and your experience with ISS National Lab, you know, of course, 15 years of National Lab, but your your time in it, and then what you know what is to remain. How do you reflect on your personal experience or your professional experience, and what is yet to come?
Patrick O’Neill
You’re gonna try to get me all emotional at the very end.
Gary Jordan
I’m trying to get a tear at the end of this.
Patrick O’Neill
I like that. Yeah, to your point, it’s been almost 14 years with with CASIS and the ISS National Lab, and I’ve been fortunate to be a part of almost every launch that has had national lab sponsored research fly to it under CASIS’s leadership. So just to have that ear to the ground and to kind of see the evolution that we have had with this space community as a whole, I look at that and I say that it has been the absolute privilege of my life. And I don’t think that there’s anything that I can do beyond this that would surpass what it is that I’ve had the opportunity to be a part of.
Again, this is an amazing community, and and I’m happy to say that it’s it’s one where it’s allowed me to grow, and it’s one where I’ve been able to forge so many great relationships. Obviously, we’ve had the opportunity to work together for gosh more than 10 years, I want to say. So it’s just it’s it’s a family. It’s a and truly, I mean that. And so, what I take from this is knowing that we’ve had the opportunity to grow something collectively together. If I’ve had a small part in being able to communicate some of the things that have happened on station and why this matters to us all, then that’s been my honor. And I look forward to continuing to tell these great stories on station through the end of its program and even beyond.
I mean, gosh, there’s the story has just begun on what it is that we’re capable of doing in low Earth orbit, and I hope that there’s communicators like yourself and myself that will continue to be telling those great stories down the road.
Gary Jordan
I can’t think of a better way to end. Patrick O’Neill, thank you for coming back on Houston We Have a Podcast.
Patrick O’Neill
Thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it.
Gary Jordan
Hey, thanks for sticking around. I hope you had a good time. There have been 1000s of experiments conducted on the International Space Station, many of which were enabled through CASIS and the ISS National Lab. We’ve published a few episodes recently highlighting results that have been published thanks to research in low Earth orbit. Check out episodes 427, 430, and 432 that highlight space station experiments that have led to published results, and go to NASA.gov/stationresults for more.
Our full collection of episodes and all the other wonderful NASA podcasts can be found at nasa.gov/podcasts.
On social media we are on the NASA Johnson Space Center pages of Facebook, X, and Instagram. If you have any questions for us or suggestions for future episodes, email us at nasa-houstonpodcast@mail.nasa.gov.
This interview was recorded on August 12, 2026.
Our producer is Dane Turner. Audio engineers are Will Flato and Daniel Tohill, and our social media is managed by Leah Cheshier and Kelcie Howren. Houston We Have a Podcast was created and is supervised by me, Gary Jordan, and of course, thanks again to Patrick O’Neill for taking the time to come on the show.
Give us a rating and feedback on whatever platform you’re listening to us on, and tell us what you think of our podcast.
We’ll be back next week.
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