Suggested Searches

Digital Space

Season 1Episode 45May 18, 2018

Annette Moore, the Director of Information Resources and the Chief Information Officer at the Johnson Space Center, tells us about data and information in space as well as the tech we use for human spaceflight operations, including space station imagery and how it's changed over time. HWHAP Episode 45.

Digital Space

Houston, we, have, a podcast, NASA, johnson, space center, digital space

“Houston We Have a Podcast” is the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, the home of human spaceflight, stationed in Houston, Texas. We bring space right to you! On this podcast, you’ll learn from some of the brightest minds of America’s space agency as they discuss topics in engineering, science, technology and more. You’ll hear firsthand from astronauts what it’s like to launch atop a rocket, live in space and re-enter the Earth’s atmosphere. And you’ll listen in to the more human side of space as our guests tell stories of behind-the-scenes moments never heard before.

Episode 45 features Annette Moore, the Director of our Information Resources Directorate and the Chief Information Officer at the Johnson Space Center, who tells us about data and information in space as well as the tech we use for human spaceflight operations, including space station imagery and how it’s changed over time. Moore discusses how the Johnson Space Center is handling the multiple petabytes of data to preserve the history of the human spaceflight program. This episode was recorded on April 18, 2018.

Transcript

Houston, we have a podcast

Gary Jordan (Host): Houston, we have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, episode 45, “Digital Space”. I’m Gary Jordan, and I’ll be your host today. So, in this podcast, we bring in the experts, NASA scientists, engineers, astronauts, sometimes our leaders. We bring them right here on the show to tell you about all the cool stuff that’s going on right here at NASA. So, today, we’re talking about data and information in space and here at the Johnson Space Center with Annette Moore. She’s the Director of our Information Resources Directorate and the Chief Information Officer here in Houston. And, we had a great discussion about the tech we use for human spaceflight operations, including space station imagery and how it’s changed over time. And then, how the Johnson Space Center is handling the multiple petabytes of data. It’s actually unbelievable how much data we have. The multiple petabytes of data and information that we use all the time in our everyday lives. So, with no further delay, let’s go light speed and jump right ahead to our talk with Ms. Annette Moore. Enjoy.

[ Music ]

Host: All right. Annette, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today to talk about this digital space.

Annette Moore: Well, I’m pretty excited about this, and I’m glad I had the opportunity to sit down and talk with you.

Host: Absolutely. And, it’s, I’m particularly excited about it because we’re talking about data, that not only we deal with every day, but was we were, we were just chatting just a little bit before this. There’s a whole history of data, and we have, you know, we have records of all of the history of our flights that we have to maintain to a certain level, and we are required to maintain in a way that is going to, I guess, we’re going to pass forth and make sure that we can retain for years to come.

Annette Moore: Absolutely. Yeah.

Host: There’s a lot of stuff here.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: And, we’re talking about data from, from some of the Legacy programs, too, right?

Annette Moore: You bet.

Host: We’re talking about Apollo, Gemini.

Annette Moore: Apollo, Gemini. You bet. Yes, yes.

Host: Wow. So, why don’t we start, start with that? Why don’t we start with some of the data that we’re, that we’re dealing with? Kind of continuing from the conversation that we were talking about earlier. What is some of the historical data that we have, and how are we keeping it?

Annette Moore: So, we have data that dates all the way back to the Apollo program, and that data is kept in various forms of media. So, originally, you might imagine when we first started getting that data, that data was on paper. It was on tape. And, I mean the old fashioned, reel-to-reel tape.

And, as we’ve moved more into the digital age, we’re converting that to digital. Of course, NARA has, which is the National Archives, they have certain requirements for how they will receive data, how long data has to be retained at the federal agency. So, we have retention schedules. And so, we follow those retention schedule for when a program ends and how long we actually keep that data at the center. And then, it transfers over to NARA. But, again, as I said, NARA has some stringent requirements on how they will or will not except that data. So, we are certainly abiding by those requirements from NARA, the retention schedule and the media in which we store that data and send that data to NARA. But, it is a plethora of history, a plethora of data and information, and it tells an incredible story of NASA and the space program.

Annette Moore: Yeah, a lot of the things that you see on documentaries, you know. And, I’m imagining is you have to, you have to sort of cradle the data, take care of it, raise it to be.

Annette Moore: Absolutely.

Host: I guess what NARA is requiring it to be.

Annette Moore: Yeah, absolutely.

Host: And then, send it off into the world to.

Annette Moore: Yeah, yeah.

Host: I guess, I guess explore and be used.

Annette Moore: Yeah. Well, we value that data very much. We have some of that data in the form of oral history where folks have actually interviewed folks from the old programs, and they have a wealth of information and data that they share. And, that data is not just used for the purposes of memorable content, but it’s actually used to inform some of our programs moving forward.

Host: Yeah. And, talking about data, just, the landscape where we are now, we’re dealing with just insane amount of data. Yeah, and you’re talking multiple petabytes.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: You were talking before.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: Just billions. It’s.

Annette Moore: Billions and billions of data. Yeah.

Host: It’s incredible. So, let’s, I guess, start from the beginning and see how we got to this point. How did we get so much data? What were we dealing with, what were some of the legacy technology and information that we were dealing with, and the start of the space program?

Annette Moore: So, you know, it’s really interesting because I’m going to kind of date myself here. So, I started back in the shuttle day, and I can remember working over in building 30. And, pretty much like, and I wasn’t, I wasn’t this far dated back. But, when you go to the bank, and you have the pneumatic tubes that they send your money through, through the teller. You know, that actually started as far back as that, you know, in terms of how you transmitted the data. Now, we transmit the data over network lines. We transmit the data via station coming downlinked to the Mission Control. We transmit the data in various forms. We receive the data in various forms. We analyze the data, and then we store the data in various forms. And so, that dates all the way back to the beginning of the shuttle program, all the way back to the beginning of the Apollo era, all the way back to when we were looking at data and deciphering that data and deciding how we needed to store that data, what we needed with that data. And, what data was important and what data wasn’t. I think back then, everything was data.

We kept everything. We stored everything. When programs expire, they’re supposed to actually bring those, that data current and put that data in a format and a form that can go to NARA. We have boxes and boxes of data over, and our archivist is storing that data when a program ends. And so, I’ve been across several of the centers, and I’m just astounded by the data that they have that they’re collecting and that they’re storing. So, that’s something that we’re known for. That’s part of our legacy. And, I think it’s a great legacy that we have.

Host: Yeah.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: That’s, well, the history is phenomenal.

Annette Moore: The history is, it’s phenomenal. It is. Yeah.

Host: So, when you’re talking about different kinds of data, going back to those tube days, the pneumatic tubes. You’re not talking about information that’s stored electronically. You’re talking about.

Annette Moore: That’s right.

Host: Physical copies of data that have to be.

Annette Moore: That’s absolutely right.

Host: Physically filed away.

Annette Moore: That’s absolutely right. I’ll tell you, that’s true even in our medical profession. Think about when you used to go to that, again, I’m going to age myself. When you, you know, I’d go to the dentist’s office, and they’d role out the file cabinet, you know. They’d have the tall file cabinets, and they literally would have a rotary. And, they would roll out, and that’s how they stored data. That data now, because there are government requirements now to go to an electronic format for that data. And so, we’ve moved into that age. We weren’t always there. We’ve moved into that age but think about the cycles of individuals that it takes, the cycles of time, the cycles of transferring across the age of technology to convert that data into a format that is now usable in this current age. So, we’ve gone through quite a transition with the data.

Host: Now, there was, there was a lot of data in our history, too, and, you know, file cabinets, right? You’re rolling stuff out. But, not only that, even the technology that was digital.

Annette Moore: That’s right.

Host: Took up a lot of space.

Annette Moore: Took up a lot of space. It did. You know, I can remember in my early days of program, and we had the big, round discs that had all of the data for your program files that you would store. It’s quite different, and now, you have, what, a little disc that you pop in. You have a little thumb drive that you pop in.

Host: Yeah.

Annette Moore: But, that actually has tons of data on it as well.

Host: But, that’s just because of how technology has progressed. Now.

Annette Moore: Absolutely.

Host: What used to take an entire room, maybe even a floor, we can go back to store the amount of data that you can now store on a thumb drive.

Annette Moore: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. You bet.

Host: Now, I’m thinking about Mission Control. This is always one of my, one of my just, I’m blown away by this statistic is the comparison of the data that Mission Control was dealing with versus what a current smartphone can deal with.

Annette Moore: Yeah. [laughs]

Host: Is it true a smartphone can actually compute more?

Annette Moore: That’s absolutely true. Back in the Apollo era, that is absolutely true. You bet. Yeah.

Host: Wow. Because you were dealing with kilobytes of data, right?

Annette Moore: You bet. You bet.

Host: Unbelievable.

Annette Moore: Yeah, that is.

Host: How did that, how did, how can you fly a rocket, how can you communicate a deal with space systems with such little data? It, I mean, why can I not fly a rocket with my phone right now?

[ Laughter ]

Annette Moore: Well, technology has advanced over time. What we have done with that technology has also changed over time. And, I think our goals and our objectives and where we were trying to get, that’s changed over time. And so, with that, all of the things that are associated with it, not just the technology, but the smarts that it takes to do that. That’s changed over time. How we test has changed. How we prepare for flight readiness has changed. And so, all of that with that, that advancement of technology has been very necessary. I always tell people NASA hires smart people, and they absolutely do. I look back in the John Glenn day, and I look at what those guys were doing and what they were computing in their heads, what they were computing with pen and paper and how we do it very differently now. But, it’s still the same, math is math, yeah.

Host: That’s true. Yeah, we just have a lot more, I guess, computer help.

Annette Moore: We have a lot more computer help. We absolutely do.

Host: Yeah.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: So, the processes of just working in Mission Control, working here and dealing with data. Now, you’re talking about converting from a time of you’re doing math with hand.

Annette Moore: With hand.

Host: And, a pen, on your desk, and just dealing with all of the computer. How have you seen the workplace shift over time or know about the shift over time between just dealing with more and more data?

Annette Moore: So, it’s shift everywhere from the physical construct of the work environment to what’s necessary, the tools that are necessary for you to do your job, to the whole thought process behind how you do your job. That has shift. If you look back into even how we were simulated in our work environment, how we work closely together in big rooms where information was being shared. You share information. I share information across the continent to other folks. I share information across to other centers that are on opposite ends of the spectrum from me. So, you share information, and you look at how you do that and how we had to do it once. And, it really composites setting with everyone in the same place at the same time. But, now, technology affords us an allows us to share that information across the globe. I mean, that’s phenomenal to me. You know, I think that’s how we learn, and that’s what we’ve learned so well.

Host: It is, I consider it a fortunate thing that we can access so much information so readily. But, at the same time, sometimes I just want to shut off my phone.

Annette Moore: I know.

Host: And, just ignore [inaudible].

Annette Moore: I know, yeah.

Host: We are very connected.

Annette Moore: Yes.

Host: Almost too connected.

Annette Moore: Well, you know, that, so that’s interesting that you say that because the conundrum associated with that is you’re concerned then, what about the security of that data that I’m sharing.

Host: Yeah.

Annette Moore: That becomes a huge concern, and certainly, in my environment, in the CIO environment, in the IT world, you hear it every day. You hear about breeches and compromises. So, we used to be concerned about the device and making sure that the device is secure. What you’re really concerned about, and it’s a conversation we’re having right now, is the data that’s on that device. You want to make sure that that data is secure. So, that’s huge.

Host: Yeah. Because the kinds of data we [inaudible], and we should probably clarify this, is there’s so much data, but it’s pretty diverse, too. You know.

Annette Moore: It is.

Host: We’re dealing with just regular math equations, like we were saying before, but then, also, there’s sensitive aspect to it.

Annette Moore: Yeah. You bet you.

Host: There’s stuff that is preliminary that can be, there’s certain sensitivities that you have to protect.

Annette Moore: Absolutely. You have scientific data. You have engineering data. You have health data. You have PII data. Very sensitive data at very different levels of that data. You have data that’s associated with flight equipment and flight hardware. You have software, and so, yes, it has to be protected, and it has to be protected at different levels.

Host: Now, we as a federal agency, I’m sure, have much more restrictions on these kinds of things.

Annette Moore: Absolutely.

Host: So, what’s the environment on what we do to protect this data?

Annette Moore: Absolutely. So, we have requirements that all federal agencies are accountable to through OMB, through NIS. Cybersecurity related requirements that require us to secure the data, to protect the data. Now, it’s interesting because, as a federal agency, one of the things that NASA has to do is to share that data. That is publicly available data, and so we share that data. We have a Space Act agreement that talks about the sharing of that data with the public, but we also have a requirement and a responsibility to protect that data. And so, with that comes a lot of requirements. Currently, I will tell you at the agency level, through the Office of the CIO, Department of Homeland Security, and it’s not just for NASA. It’s for all federal agencies. They’re providing tools and capabilities that enable us to store that data, to secure that data, and to ensure the security and the protection of that data.

Host: And, what’s, I guess, unique about this, and you kind of eluded to this before was you’re protecting the data that you have, because it’s your data, right? But, in order to operate, because we are, we’re not just NASA. We are partnered with international.

Annette Moore: Absolutely.

Host: You know, we’re partnered with nations across the globe.

Annette Moore: Yes.

Host: And, you’re right, we have to share this information. So, how do you ensure that we can share what we need to share but that we’re going to stay protected, and we’re not going to have some sort of incident where people are going to be exposed?

Annette Moore: So, they have the same requirements levied on them, and I can assure you they have the same concerns that we have ensure that they share the right information, that they share the right data, and that they protect the data that they share. And so, through our IT security program here at the Johnson Space Center, we’re accountable to the OCI, or the Office of the CIO at the agency level. We’re accountable to external entities such as Department of Homeland Security, Office of Management and Budget. There are requirements that are levied on us for our cybersecurity program. And, at the center here, through my office, we have a cybersecurity office that’s actually our IT security office. With each organization here at the Johnson Space Center, you have representatives within those directorates that are responsible for the security of the systems and the data within their organization. And so, that accountability goes across the board. So, cybersecurity is a responsibility of everyone. That’s everyone’s responsibility.

In your work environment as well as in your home environment.

Host: You’re right, because ultimately, it’s your data, and you might not be a person who’s a technical person to deal with it, but ultimately, it’s your data that you’re responsible for. So, you have to make sure that it’s protects, and you’re constantly thinking about, am I protected.

Annette Moore: Yes.

Host: Yeah.

Annette Moore: Yes.

Host: So, you’re talking about requirements, and you’re talking about, from the federal level, these restrictions being imposed. What are some of the things that we are required to do? What are some of the, give me an example of a requirement.

Annette Moore: Right.

Host: That may be, maybe is more difficult to do business. But, is essentially to make sure that we are protected.

Annette Moore: So, every system that we have here at the Johnson Space Center has to be under security plan. And, it has to have the authority to operate. So, as the Center’s CIO and as the authorizing official for some of those systems, I have to say that that system has the authority to operate. Well, that system has to meet certain requirements. It has to make sure that it has patching. There is scanning and vulnerability testing that’s done on those systems, and if any of that is not successful, there has to be a plan of action and milestones and a mitigation plan and strategy to make sure that those systems are healthy. Or, those systems should not be connected to our network. That’s a requirement for every system on this Center. And so, when I sign my name to a system as authorizing official, I’m saying that that system is healthy, it does not put the Center at risk, it does not put us in a situation of possible vulnerability occurring with that system. And, I’m signing off on that, as are the other authorizing officials for systems here at the Center.

That’s a requirement, not just for NASA, but for other federal agencies for their systems. The PIV implementation that we’re doing right now, that’s securing access to your devices, to your computer, and making sure that where you’re going on the network, you have authority, and you have the right to access those systems and that data on those systems.

Host: So, that’s the, that’s the badges that we carry around.

Annette Moore: That’s the badges.

Host: That identify us, but then also say I am Gary, and I can access this computer.

Annette Moore: Absolutely. You bet.

Host: On the available access that’s on this chip.

Annette Moore: You bet.

Host: Okay.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: And so, basically, you’re saying that all of these, all of these systems are carefully watched, and if some, and they are scanned.

Annette Moore: Yes.

Host: And, if something is revealed to say there is a vulnerability, there’s a chance that something bad could happen, you make a plan of action to go fix it.

Annette Moore: Absolutely.

Host: Okay.

Annette Moore: Absolutely. We don’t want things connected to our network that could put us at risk. So, we have critical mission data. We have sensitive human health and performance data. We don’t want anything on our systems, in our data, that could put us at risk or that could put our crew at risk or the vehicle at risk.

Host: Do you see a lot of instances of folks trying to hack us, trying to, trying to get into our systems and, just you realize, because you understand probably the scope more than any of us. You know, we’re sitting pretty. We’re on our email. We’re doing our thing, but you’re saying maybe there’s a side to this where we are being attacked. And, maybe we just don’t know it, but our security is good enough where we don’t know it.

Annette Moore: Yeah. Yeah. I think you should always assume that your best posture is to be a posture where you’re secured, and you’re protected. I think everyone should always assume. I assume that at home with my home computer. You know, I don’t click on links. I don’t download things that are not credible. I assume that on my home system, I assume that on my work systems. We all should at all times. I mean, I’m not sure about you, but I’ve gotten a letter or two from LPM about my data being compromised because of a store that I’ve shopped at and my credit card number got out, as did other folks. I’ve been in that situation before. I just recently sent one of my siblings a text message. I said, “Hey, I know you were shopping here last month. I just saw on the new where they had a breech.” I said, “You probably want to write them, and you probably want to contact your bank.” I think we should always all assume that I’m going to be safe and I’m going to make sure that my systems and my data is secure.

Host: Yeah. You have to be, it’s kind of, you have to be constantly vigilant.

Annette Moore: Yes, you do.

Host: You have to be constantly aware.

Annette Moore: Yes. Yes.

Host: Which is kind of a burden, but also necessary.

Annette Moore: It’s necessary. Yeah, yeah.

Host: Now, I was talking about, we were talking about requirements before, and there’s obviously security requirements to make sure we’re safe. But, going back, we were talking a little bit about NARA and requirements for storing data. What do we have to do to make sure that we are archiving all these great things that we’re doing properly so that it could be stored properly? Like, mission videos, like when we do cool things in space and have video of it. I want to make sure that that’s kept.

Annette Moore: So, we have a records manager. We have each organization has someone within their directorate who is responsible for making sure that we’re following the guidelines of NARA. That actually should start at the very beginning of a program, at the very beginning of a program, and it’s the same way you do security. You don’t do security at the end of the system. You do security at the very beginning, from cradle to grave. And, it’s the same way with records retention. When you start kicking off a program, you should, then, start actually recording your records and keeping your records and keeping them according to the requirements for NARA. And so, when that program ends, you’ve got all your records according to how you’re supposed to capture your records, record your records, save your records, file your records. You’ve got all of that in order. And, that’s critically important. As I said, a lot of that data is used on newer programs from previous programs. I had a visit out to Wallace, actually to, I’m sorry, White Sands a couple of months ago.

And, years ago, at the very beginning of my career, I worked on small ICPM missiles, and I worked at Peacekeeper and Minuteman. And, to my surprise, I walked in, and there was the missile head from Peacekeeper that I worked on years ago, early in my career. And, we’re using information from that to help inform us as we move forward with our new programs such as Orion. And, I was just like, “Wow, that was at the beginning of my career. I can’t believe I’m seeing this,” you know.

Host: Blast from the past.

Annette Moore: But that shows the criticality and the importance of maintaining good records and keeping those records from the beginning of a program to the end of that program and making sure that that data and that information, then, can be passed on for future programs.

Host: Yes, because it’s learning.

Annette Moore: It’s learning. Absolutely.

Host: It’s learning. In order to make things better, you need to know how they were first.

Annette Moore: Absolutely.

Host: Yeah.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: So, so, we have these requirements to document thing a certain way. Were these, have we captured everything successful, or are there things that we’re just, we’re just not going to get?

Annette Moore: I think what we’ve done is we’ve learned along the way. I think we’ve learned and we’ve gotten smarter with how we have captured records, how we have retained those records, how we have stored those records. And, I think that program has improved over the years. I’ve seen it just in the span of time that I’ve been working in the office of the CIO. I’ve seen where we’ve gotten really smart. We’ve partnered with other organizations. We’ve partnered with other federal agencies. NARA is very helpful and very good at helping federal agencies [inaudible] because that is a legacy, not just of a federal agency, not just of a program. That’s the legacy of our country.

Host: Right.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: Yeah. You know, they want to make sure that it’s not lost.

Annette Moore: They want to make sure. Yeah.

Host: So, they will help us along the way to make sure.

Annette Moore: They help us, yeah.

Host: Okay.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: So, so, where, yeah, make sure that we capture all this great history that we’re doing.

Annette Moore: Yeah. Yeah.

Host: Now, I think one of the biggest challenges is it’s got to be technology because what used to be maybe a little datapoints with kilobytes of information, now we’re getting video. Now, we’re going to HD video.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: There’s not only a different kind of data that we’re dealing with, but it’s larger.

Annette Moore: It’s larger.

Host: And, we got to figure out where to put it because that’s a lot of data.

Annette Moore: Larger, very sophisticated.

Host: Yeah.

Annette Moore: Different ways to manipulate the data, different ways to manage the data and maintain the data. And so, we have to progress with the progression of the technology. We have to get smarter with the technology, and we have to really learn how to use it and leverage it to the best advantage that we can and to ensure that it provides capability that we need.

Host: So, it sounds like one of the biggest challenges is going to be balance. Balance on the requirements that you have for certain technologies, but then also making sure that you’re keeping up with the technology itself.

Annette Moore: You bet. Absolutely.

Host: So, maybe technology, and people talk about this all the time, is progressing so fast.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: Not a lot of people can keep up with it. So, how do you write procedures and rules to make sure that we can keep up with it, at least to the best of our knowledge and capability?

Annette Moore: So, one of the things that I think is hugely important is that we are staying out there ahead of the technology, or at least in sync with the technology. So, one of the things that we like to ensure that the folks on our team are doing, that they’re exposed to this growth in technology, that they’re partnering with other organizations outside of federal government, outside of NASA, because folks outside of federal government are, they’re taking the risk that we sometimes don’t take because we just don’t have the opportunity to take that risk. Our schedules, our projects, our timelines, the fact that we’re doing, dealing with humans in space, it maybe allows us to not take some of the risks that other folks take in terms of progressing technology. But, in partnering with those folks, benchmarking with those folks, we’re learning where the technology is going. I was just at a CIO face to face last week, and we’re talking about what are we going to look like three to five to ten years from now. We’re not talking about what are we going to look like a year from now. We’re talking about what is it going to look like three to five to ten years from now.

We have to do that.

Host: Yeah.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: Now, the difficulty is you can, looking ahead, try to think three, five, ten, but then, there’s so many technologies that maybe we don’t even know are on the horizon.

Annette Moore: We don’t know. Yeah.

Host: That you have to plan for.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: That’s got to be difficult.

Annette Moore: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Host: I know there’s just a lot of challenges with dealing with this data, and we were talking about, we’re talking about HD video, and now I know recently, we were doing 4K downlinks. Where, now, we’re dealing with 4K.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: So, one of the biggest things I’m thinking of is storage. Do we store a lot of things here on the Center?

Annette Moore: We do. We have a data center here, and it’s interesting. I love that you just asked me that because we just entered a wonderful partnership that I’m very proud of with Station where we moved over to a new storage content platform for them for all of the imagery that we get, the still, the video. Everything that we get that’s downlinked from Station. This is data that we’re getting every day. So, just imagine, just the flood of data that’s coming in every day. And, we actually entered a partnership with them just last year on a content platform for their storage, and we presented a business case to them. And, this was so exciting for us because it provided us an opportunity not look at where they are just right now. But, at the rate that we’re getting data from Station, and that rate is not going to slow down. We wanted to provide a storage platform for them that would allow them to look years out and continue to build on that and not have to be concerned about I’m going to run out of storage space.

And so, we sat with them, and we worked with them to understand what their requirements would be, not just for today, but where they saw themselves, five, ten, years from now and built this platform for them out in our data center. And, we’re very proud of that. It was a great partnership that we had with them, and we’re going to continue to build on that.

Host: It was very exciting.

Annette Moore: Yeah. Very exciting. Yeah.

Host: Now, I think, you know, you’re talking about planning, planning farther ahead, even.

Annette Moore: Yes.

Host: With these, with these servers. So, I’m sure you’re thinking of this is going to meet our capabilities for storing now, and then, going back to the requirements of we have to keep our data for.

Annette Moore: Yes.

Host: A certain amount of time, and then, fit it for NARA requirements.

Annette Moore: Exactly.

Host: I’m sure that’s part of the plan, too.

Annette Moore: Yes. Yes. And, part of what we look at when we look at that, as well, particularly in the subject of storage, is we look at, so, when do we move or what do we move into the cloud environment. Because, that allows us more elasticity in terms of storage capability for our data. You know, there’s that security element around that as well.

Host: Yeah.

Annette Moore: Who owns your data?

Host: Right.

Annette Moore: You know, what are the requirements for your data being in the cloud? What’s the cost of being in the cloud? So, those are all of the things that you have to consider, and that’s certainly part of the conversation when we look at what our options are for storage. And, not just storage, but how we can securely store our data and affordably store our data.

Host: It’s a big balance, right?

Annette Moore: It is.

Host: Secure but affordability. Because you can keep it here, but then you have to buy these servers. Now, you have to have this machinery, this hardware that’s going to keep everything. That can get up the costs. It’s yours, and you’re secure because it’s not, you know it’s your data. So, you got that, but then, at the same time, technology is maybe going toward the cloud, and how do we fit things into the cloud but make it still ours? I can see where there’s a lot of back and forth there.

Annette Moore: I love where this conversation is going because we were just talking earlier about requirements that are imposed on us at a federal level. We’re a federal agency.

Host: Yeah.

Annette Moore: And, one of the things that we had a requirement for, and not just us NASA, but federal agencies, was to reduce our footprint for our data center. Reduce our physical footprint, the number of data centers that we have. And so, that’s when you look at technologies like going to cloud and how you can enable that.

Host: Wow. So, okay. So, it’s actually looking at requirements to limit what we have physically, and to.

Annette Moore: Absolutely.

Host: Actually opt into using cloud technology.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: That’s pretty significant.

Annette Moore: That is.

Host: But, now, you have a whole bunch of more challenges of security and ownership and.

Annette Moore: Absolutely.

Host: Stuff like that that you have to deal with down the road.

Annette Moore: Absolutely. Yes.

Host: Lot of challenges going on.

Annette Moore: Lot of challenges, but you know, I will tell you, I really see those challenges as opportunities. And, that’s what I tell my team. Those challenges are really opportunities for us to move forward, you know. I want to be in control of my destiny.

Host: Yeah.

Annette Moore: I don’t want someone to be in control of that for me. I want to be in control of that. I want to be at the table when we’re talking about where this agency is going to be three, five, ten years from now, what our future looks like. That’s hugely exciting.

Host: It is very exciting. Now, thinking towards the future and making sure we can, we can get there, I actually am going to redivert this to the past. And, we were talking about, you know, we have data centers that have this digital technology stored in these servers. So, we can, we can house our own data here, but we have different types of data. We have, we have tapes from the Apollo days and from, and from shuttle days that we need to convert. What’s that process look like? How are we doing that? How are we taking this older technology and converting it?

Annette Moore: I would love to take you on a tour out to what we call our farm, because.

Host: Okay.

Annette Moore: We literally have the reel-to-reel tapes that I can remember as a kid. You probably can’t, but I can.

[ Laughter ] You know, the reel-to-reel tapes, and we are actually converting that to digital format. And so, that’s happening right here on site. That’s happening at other centers because other centers have that same challenge. When you think back to that era where all you had were the reel-to-reel tapes. That’s all you had. So, now, you’ve got to convert that because some of that tape also is going through what they call the vinegar syndrome where it’s deteriorating. So, that’s history. That’s information. You’ll never recapture that if you lose that. So, you want to convert those things to their appropriate format. And, of course, that’s not something that NARA would accept. If you’ve got film that’s going through the vinegar syndrome that would not be a good storage solution for NARA with all of the responsibilities that they have for maintaining the legacy for our nation. So, we are, we have moved to technology that is allowing us to convert it. Now, here’s the challenge. As you said, plethora and plethora of data.

Host: Oh, so much.

Annette Moore: So, the time that it takes to do that conversion, trying to do that quick and where that data is still good, and you can get it converted to that new format.

Host: You’re right. Because you’re talking about, I mean, like, shuttle missions, for example.

Annette Moore: Exactly.

Host: That lasted for weeks, and you just have a continuous stream of weeks of data.

Annette Moore: Absolutely.

Host: That you have to convert.

Annette Moore: Absolutely.

Host: But, it’s, I like how you’re saying that it’s, not only is it a requirement that we have to have it digital in order to store it with NARA, now you’re talking about just saving the film itself.

Annette Moore: The film itself. Yeah.

Host: The film itself is going to disappear if we don’t do something.

Annette Moore: Absolutely.

Host: So, we have to do something to save that data.

Annette Moore: Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I’m so proud that the folks in my organization understand the importance of that, the importance of that, the history that that has a legacy that that has, and that they’re committed to that. And, I, when I visit the other centers, I see that same commitment to that, you know. And, it’s great.

Host: It’s a lot of hard work.

Annette Moore: Yeah, it is.

Host: Because it’s very monotonous labor, right? You have to, all right. Put in another film reel. Here we go. I mean, there’s a lot to it, but it’s vital to save that stuff.

Annette Moore: And, I got to tell you, I’m going to, you want you to hold me to this. I’m going to take you on a tour out to our farm where the guys are doing that.

Host: All right.

Annette Moore: They understand that when they pick up that reel of film, that’s history that they have in their hand.

Host: Yeah.

Annette Moore: I can recall getting a call from the guys out there, and they had found a reel of film that showed the original construction of Johnson Space Center. And, they were so excited. They were, “You won’t believe what we came across. You won’t believe what we found.” You know, I mean, they had, they take great pride in doing that, and that’s so cool, I think.

Host: To be, I mean, to be the first person to hold that.

Annette Moore: Yeah, yeah.

Host: Film reel in decades.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: That’s got to feel very special.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: And, to say, “I’m going to save this!”

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: “I’m going to be the person that going to save this.”

Annette Moore: Exactly, exactly.

Host: “For somebody else.” It’s on record, though, so I’m going to hold you to it.

Annette Moore: Yeah, yeah.

Host: The tour.

[ Laughter ]

Annette Moore: You bet. You bet.

Host: So, this is probably a very important question to follow up on is we’re saving all this data. It’s history. We’re putting into the archives. What, what are some of the ways that we can use that data? Why would we save all of it versus just, eh, this is important? We don’t need it. We don’t need to save it. It’s just going to take up space. How do you decide what’s important, what’s not, and why to save it?

Annette Moore: So, there are certain requirements for what you have to save. NARA has some requirements on that in terms of the kinds of things you save. I’ll give you an example. Even senior executives, things like their email records, that is considered a record. Think about that. Think about what’s documented with our Presidents. You know, speeches that they’ve had, decisions that they’ve made, you know, law that has been enacted. There is a reason we say that it tells a story. It is our legacy. It says who we are. It informs us. It’s in our textbooks. It informs us. It helps us in terms of building our future. Those are things that are vitally important to us as individuals, vitally important to us as a nation, vitally important to us on this globe.

Host: Yes, yeah. So, it’s, you recognize the importance. I think one of the things on my mind is immediately going to is whenever we’ve had, whenever we’ve had some of the recent accidents, right?

Annette Moore: Absolutely.

Host: So, like, if you’re talking about the Columbia accident.

Annette Moore: Absolutely.

Host: Now, you have this data where you can go back.

Annette Moore: Absolutely.

Host: Look at every excruciating detail.

Annette Moore: Absolutely.

Host: Because we have it. Because you saved it.

Annette Moore: Yes.

Host: And, it’s crucial to find out what went wrong, what can we do to fix it, what can we do to prevent it from happening in the future.

Annette Moore: You can even think in everyday terms of how we study weather data. You know, so, I was impacted by Hurricane Harvey.

Host: Yeah.

Annette Moore: And, when I think about the studies that go behind weather and weather patterns and things that they watch for the weather, I’m very grateful for that because that alerts us, it alarms us in a way that keeps us safe. But, that’s important for our survival. This data is as well.

Host: Yeah.

Annette Moore: The survival of our crew.

Host: Exactly. It’s like the more you know, the more informed decision you can make to make the best decision.

Annette Moore: Absolutely. Yeah.

Host: Yeah. I’m sorry to hear about Harvey. You were talking.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: A little bit before, and you are just, it’s been crazy with all the traveling. You can’t even unload the boxes into the house. It’s got to be brutal.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: You know, looking at, looking at, going back to imagery, I think this is one component of your division that I think is just absolutely fascinating.

Annette Moore: Yeah. It is.

Host: When you’re talking about the beautiful images we’re getting from 250 miles above the space station, but all of the rest. What are we, what’s the story there? What’s the story of the whole imagery component of the division?

Annette Moore: So, we have imagery online. We have, as I said, we’re getting around the clock. And, I don’t think people realize this, but over in building eight, we’re getting around the clock downlink from Station. If it’s still, if it’s video, it’s imagery, it’s photo shots. We get imagery from test data, and when engineering directorate does test data, we get photos from that. I mean, we get this data around the clock. That’s, it tells a story.

Host: Yeah.

Annette Moore: It absolutely does. That data is used for tests. It’s used for engineering analysis. It’s used for data analysis. It’s used for capturing and telling the story for when the crew is onboard, and what’s happening throughout their duration of their crew time. It’s used for all of those things, and we keep that data. That imagery is stored. It’s very important for us. It’s very important for the crew. When they come back, and they’ve got that data from their flight, they can use that data to do analysis, to do some forward work. That’s hugely important. It’s hugely important for folks in the engineering directorate as they’re making decisions about test data and what they need to tweak, what works, what doesn’t work. Hugely important. Yeah.

Host: Now, that’s actually, I think, one of the coolest parts about the imagery department is you have these still photographers, and not only are they taking artistic photographs and the ones you see online, the films you see of rockets going up. But, it’s not, the purpose isn’t because it’s pretty.

Annette Moore: No.

Host: The purpose is, like, they’re taking close up pictures of hardware.

Annette Moore: That’s right.

Host: They’re taking photos of even the crew.

Annette Moore: That’s right.

Host: Is grabbing a camera onboard and taking photos.

Annette Moore: That’s right.

Host: Of things that don’t really look too great, but it is vital for engineering purposes. Because it’s, like what you said. I love that phrasing. It tells a story. All right. What’s going on here? What’s the layout? How can we fix it? There’s a lot of, it’s important, and not only to store but to keep track of, to organize. That must be a pain to organize all those images.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Annette Moore: That, well, I think the folks who do that, I’ve walked through our area where we have all of our imagery, and the folks who are doing that, they love that. And, they, it’s like you get to experience having been on station, and you are not really there. You get to experience it as they go through all of these photos, as they go through this still imagery, as they go through the video. They get to be a part of that experience.

Host: Yeah. They’re part of the story.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: Because they’re living through it, and they’re, they have to organize it in their head and come up, like you said.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: With a story. And, I think the, you hinted at this before, where they’re putting it is called imagery online, right?

Annette Moore: Yes, it is.

Host: That’s the repository, right?

Annette Moore: It is.

Host: That’s where everything’s going. And, it’s just I use it all the time, but it’s a place where you can search the images you need.

Annette Moore: Yeah. Yeah.

Host: So, I’m, you know, me being in PAO, I search the ones that are prettier.

That we can put on the web and share with people.

Annette Moore: Well, you know, you guys have a pretty cool, cool role. So, I was at the last [inaudible] launch, and you know that we have folks who travel there from PAO who are taking the pictures. And, they’re taking the pictures of the launch absolutely. They’re taking the pictures of the crew coming out, and they’re in their gear, and they’re getting ready to get on the bus to go over to the launch pad. Absolutely taking pictures of that, but you know what they’re also taking pictures of? I watched one of our astronauts interact with the children of one of our crewmen who is going up. And, you capture that. That’s nothing like that. You know, the time that he took with these kids. Their father was getting read to go up. You know, the time that he took with them, and there was someone capturing all of this. You know, that’s, do you know what that will mean to them years from now when they look back at that?

Host: Oh, yeah.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: You know, I’ve talked with quite a few folks on the podcast, and sometimes it just comes down to a single moment. It comes down to, you know, I had one guest write a letter to NASA just say, “Hey, I’m trying to be an astronaut. What should I do?”

Annette Moore: Yeah. Yeah.

Host: And, they wrote back, and they sent something.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: Back to her.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: And, she’s like, “Yes. I am so motivated.” She dedicated her entire school career and career after that to eventually getting to the Center.

Annette Moore: There’s nothing that compares to the experience of the human element, one person to. Nothing that compares to that. And, the fact that we can capture that through photos, through imagery, through video, that we capture it in so many ways. That we capture that in the records that we keep and that we pass on from one program to another, that informs the next program and the next mission. Yeah.

Host: So, how much of it do we, do we keep for these informational purposes, that we keep for the engineering purposes, for learning and making our systems better and assessing and stuff like that? But, and then, how much are we looking at historical photos and maybe current photos and then sharing them out? What are we doing to share with the public?

Annette Moore: So, our imagery online. Anyone within the NASA community can get through that. We also have an agreement with U of H Clear Lake. So, we have some imagery and some things through U of H Clear Lake. So, they actually have some records as well on file. So, NASA, if you look in our Space Act agreement, you know, we’re a public entity. We’re not an entity unto ourselves, so we exist for the purpose of, you know, of furthering humans in exploration, in space, and in all of those avenues. And so, the data that we have is not just unto ourselves. Certainly, there is a proprietary piece of that data that is used for research, that’s used for human exploration, that’s used for the furtherment of other missions and other programs. But, there’s also a portion of that data that we are obligated to make available to the public. There is a portion of that data for historical purposes that we’re obligated through NARA to make available as well.

And so, that data is not just something that we parse out amongst the NASA community, but that data is shared across all kinds of venues for various reasons. Research and development, engineering, scientific and data analysis, for the general public. You know, and that’s absolutely obvious when you look at our education program and how we make information available through our education program.

Host: That’s interesting that they’re obligated. That we, we have a requirement to share this stuff. Do you know how far back we have to go until it says, “Anything past this date, that’s the [inaudible],”?

Annette Moore: So, for your program, when you start your program up, NARA has what they call a retention schedule. So, that retention schedule says this data, this kind of data, you have to save. You have to archive it for this period of time. And, after that period of time, you’re not obligated. So, our in building 412, we have data that we’re obligated to hold on site, physically, on site until its retention date has passed. And, we have what’s called retention schedules. Once it hits its retention schedule, then we can send it to NARA, but it has a requirement that you hold it. And, that’s for a reason. So, when we sent something to NARA, once we sent it to NARA, we have to, then, retrieve it. So, if you have to retrieve that data because you want to study that for another program that’s coming up. So, it costs us to store the data with NARA, and it also costs us to retrieve that data.

Host: Oh, yeah.

Annette Moore: So, we want to retain that data and hold on to it until we can get as much as we can out of the life of that data.

Host: Yeah.

Annette Moore: And then, we will pass that data on according to the retention schedules. So, there are requirements on the data, and it has retention schedules that NARA establishes for the data.

Host: So, it’s like, we’re required to retain it here, and that makes sense because it’s fresh data. We want to use it. We want to have ready access to it.

Annette Moore: Absolutely.

Host: Limit the cost of it. We want to protect it. That makes a lot of sense. And then, it comes to a certain point where you have to retain it for, like you said, this amount of time. And then, you go over to NARA, and then, I guess, when it goes to NARA, that’s public record, and right?

Annette Moore: Right. And so, you also have what are called permanent records.

Host: Permanent.

Annette Moore: There are things that are permanent records. So, that’s in that movie, “Raiders of the Lost Ark”. When he goes, you know, those are, that’s permanent records. Those records will never be destroyed. So, yeah.

Host: Wow.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: Now, I can’t even imagine the amount of data to be permanent.

Annette Moore: So, on one of my next trips to D.C., I’m going to the National Archives because I want to see for myself.

I’ve actually had friends who have gone to the National archives and researched generations and generations back in their family.

Host: Wow.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: Oh, because they, yeah, archive all of that stuff.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Annette Moore:Oh, my gosh.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Annette Moore:I can’t even imagine. That’s so, that’s like a never-ending construction project.

Annette Moore: Yeah, yeah.

Annette Moore:To build more and more as more data comes in. And, yet, we’re required to keep more data, and.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: Data becomes larger. I’m thinking.

Annette Moore: Yes, it does.

Host: My media files are up to 4K video. Oh, my gosh, dealing with that is such a pain.

Annette Moore: Yeah.

Host: It takes forever to downlink from the Station, and then it takes forever to work with. I mean, I have a tight computer, but, man, that’s a lot. I think, so, what’s nice about having you here, Annette, is you oversee all of this, right? So, you oversee the imagery. You oversee the storage. You oversee. So, there’s so much to IRD that you’re directorate, that it’s just unbelievable. And then, on top of that, you’re CIO. You got a large responsibility. I think one of the biggest things, and it’s selfish for me as an employee here, but you’re looking at working with ASIS, right? And, end user, so my computer. Not only are you looking at the imagery from the station, you’re looking at my computer. So, how does that work? How do we manage the information technology that we have at our desks?

Annette Moore: So, I’m responsible for that, as you said, and I’m responsible for that through two contract vehicles. So, we have the enterprise contract vehicle which is through ASIS, NIX east and west. So, we have the enterprise model, and then I have local contract that provides some additional IT support to the Center. And so, that’s managed through two different offices within IRD. The IC Office has the ASIS contract under them, and then the IB office which is my information management. And then, my multimedia office. I think you probably know Ed and his team. So, they manage those two separate contracts. And, I’m responsible for that for the Center. And, I take that very personally. You know, when someone says, “Well, my computer is, I’m having issues with my computer.” I take that very personally. You know.

Host: Yeah.

Annette Moore: I’m responsible for that, and that means a lot to me. You know, I’ve, I call folks. “So, how’s your computer? Did we fix it? Is everything okay? Follow back with me and let me know if you’re not satisfied with.” So, I’m responsible for that as the CIO and as the director of IRD. It’s kind of like a Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde thing. So, as a Director of IRD, that’s the provider of your IT services here at the Center. As the CIO, that’s almost like the policing and enforcing. That’s the policy piece, the oversight. And, you see how the two can, might sometime conflict.

Host: Yeah. Yeah.

Annette Moore: But, I take both of those roles very seriously. The customer experience is paramount for me. That’s critical, so.

Host: It’s a lot to oversee. How do you do it? What’s your background, by the way?

Annette Moore: So, I’m, my undergrad is in double e, electrical engineering.

Host: Okay.

Annette Moore: And then, so here is a twist. My Masters is in Elementary Ed.

Host: Whoa.

Annette Moore: Yeah. Interesting story. So, as a freshman, my mom and I were just, she was my best friend going through school. And, when I got ready to graduate, she told me, she said, “You’re going to major in electrical engineering.” I’m like, “Why?” She said, “Because you’ll do well in that, and you’ll make good money. And, you’ll just do well in that.” Unfortunately, my mom passed of breast cancer my freshman semester that I was in college. That was such a hard blow for me. That was really hard. I almost did not make it through school, I’ll tell you that.

Host: Yeah. It must have been hard.

Annette Moore: But, it taught me a lot. It taught me a lot about perseverance. It taught me a lot about what’s important. It taught me a lot about people. So, the way I do this job is that I trust the people who do the job. And, I tell the folks in my organization, “I work for you. My job is to ensure that you have everything that you need to be successful. If you don’t, then I have not done my job.” And so, I very much see myself as a servant leader. I’m service oriented in making sure that the people at this center have everything that they need to do the mission and make sure that the mission is successful. So.

Host: That’s it. That, you do it, you don’t do it all. You empower others to do it all.

Annette Moore: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Host: And, maintain that accountability and trust within the organization.

Annette Moore: Absolutely.

Host: Huge part of being a leader.

Annette Moore: Yeah. I tell them, “You guys are the smart people in the room. Not me.”

[ Laughter ] And, I’m smart enough to know that.

Host: And, I’m smart enough to let you be smart.

Annette Moore: Absolutely.

Host: There you go. All right. Well, Annette, that is such a nice overview of IRD. I feel like there’s more that we can go into, but it’s just hearing your passion for what you do and what you oversee, and not only that, but the people that you work with. It’s truly inspiring. So, I appreciate you coming on the podcast today.

Annette Moore: Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate you asking me to do this, and you’ve got it on record. I’m going to ask [inaudible] so I can get you out to the farm because I really want you to see this. It’s pretty cool. It’s cool.

Host: That would be lovely. Thank you.

Annette Moore: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

[ Music ]

Host: Hey, thanks for sticking around. So, today, we talked with Ms. Annette Moore about the data and information that we’re dealing with in space and then also here in the Center at the NASA Johnson Space Center. Some of the places that we store imagery, deal with imagery, protect imagery, and data and information. And, it’s actually incredible. This is episode 45 of the podcast. We are in no particular order. It’s just, that’s just how we keep track of everything. So, you can go back and listen other great podcasts on dealing with the space station and especially here on the Center. We actually talked a while back. I’m trying to remember which episode. I think it’s episode 12, we talked with the Center Director, Ellen Ochoa about just what we do here in Houston. And, this is just a small part of what we do in Houston, and yet, it’s so broad and huge. It’s actually incredible. So, you can go listen to that one.

I think it’s called “Leading Human Space Exploration”. I believe it’s episode 12. Otherwise, you can listen to some of our other NASA podcasts. We have “Gravity Assist” hosted up at headquarters by Dr. Jim Green that talks about planetary science, and then we have our friends over in Ames Research Center for their podcast “NASA in Silicon Valley”. They talk about the stuff that they’re doing over there in California and helping us out with some of the research aboard the International Space Station. Otherwise, you can visit our social media sites, both the NASA Johnson Space Center accounts and International Space Station accounts on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Use the hashtag ask NASA on your favorite platform to submit an idea. And then, we’ll make sure to make it into an episode of “Houston, We Have a Podcast”. So, this episode was recorded on April 18, 2018. Thanks to Alex Perryman, Kelly Humphries, Pat Ryan, Bill Stafford, and Eloisa Seydler. And, thanks again to Ms. Annette Moore for coming on the show. We’ll be back next week.