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“Houston We Have a Podcast” is the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center from Houston, Texas, home for NASA’s astronauts and Mission Control Center. Listen to the brightest minds of America’s space agency – astronauts, engineers, scientists and program leaders – discuss exciting topics in engineering, science and technology, sharing their personal stories and expertise on every aspect of human spaceflight. Learn more about how the work being done will help send humans forward to the Moon and on to Mars in the Artemis program.
On Episode 137, Charis Krysher and Andrea Mosie, lunar curation processor and senior scientist specialist, respectively, discuss opening and processing Apollo 17 lunar samples that have been preserved for 47 years! This episode was recorded on February 18, 2020.
Transcript
Gary Jordan (Host): Houston, we have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, Episode 137, “The Untouched Apollo Samples,” I’m Gary Jordan; I’ll be your host today. On this podcast, we bring in the experts, scientists, engineers, astronauts, all to let you know what’s going on in the world of human spaceflight. The Apollo missions to the Moon were truly scientifically unique. Observing the cosmos has always been from a far and researching material from other planets had to be done when they were “delivered to us” by way of a meteor coming through Earth’s atmosphere. During Apollo, astronauts excavated the surface of the Moon. They put them in containers and bags, all of these samples, and they return them here to Earth in a pristine way, something that was a first and had since not yet been repeated. So, these samples that were brought back from the Moon are limited, very limited. Highly sought-after samples were shared, but in very small quantities, and are highly protected. They really still are. Some of these were never opened, waiting for the right time and the right technology needed to observe them, and that time is now. Nearly 50 years after they were collected, Apollo samples were recently opened for observation. So, what was so special about these samples, and what exactly are the technologies that were so highly anticipated for nearly half a century? Coming on the podcast today are the very people who opened these samples. We’re talking with Charis Krysher and Andrea Mosie. Charis is a lunar curation processor and the core extrusion specialist, meaning it’s her hands dissecting the sample. She’s also the lead for the NASA’s Apollo Next Generation Sample Analysis Initiative. Andrea has been at NASA for 44 years and is now a Senior Scientist Specialist and the Apollo samples laboratory manager. Charis and Andrea go over more about what’s so special about these Moon rocks and the modern technology that we’re using to study them. So, here we go. Apollo samples preserved for nearly 50 years now opened with Charis Krysher and Andrea Mosie. Enjoy.
[ Music ]
Host: Charis and Andrea, thank you so much for coming on Houston, We Have a Podcast.
Charis Krysher: Thank you for having us.
Andrea Mosie: Yes, thank you.
Host: Awesome. I’m very excited to talk about these particular samples, because I’m sure this has been something that, if you’ve been in the lunar lab, you’re just looking at it, just waiting, and you’re like, man, what is going on inside of there? And we’re finally at that point. And that’s what we’re going to talk about today. We’re going to talk about these particular samples that have been open very recently, but first, I want to understand a little bit about you. Charis, we’ll start with you. What is your background? How did you get to the point where you’re now working with Apollo samples?
Charis Krysher: OK, well, I graduated with an aerospace engineering degree from UT in Austin way back in 2000, and my first job out of college was teaching astronauts and flight controllers. So, really exciting, and I did that for about seven years, and I started to really think about what was next step in my career? And I really went back to my first love, which was planetary science, all the way back from when I was five years old. And so, I did some research and realized that you could come at planetary science from a whole bunch of different angles, different science. You could come at it from chemistry or geology, physics, and so, basically, I just picked my favorite science, which was geology, went back to school for, and started to really dive into who are the people in planetary science? What are they doing, and discovered, really rediscovered that the Apollo sample collection was kept here at Johnson Space Center, which was so convenient since I was here at Johnson Space Center. And so, while I was going to school, I started to Google people, i.e., stalk people who were working out here, and actually, this job opened up. So, I thought might as well throw my hat in the ring and got an interview and was really shocked when they offered me the job. So, got very, very lucky.
Host: You say shocked, but you know, you mentioned when you were looking at planetary science, you were looking at the different angles, and geology was the one that really was your, I guess, favorite. What was it about geology versus some of the other sciences?
Charis Krysher: Well, you know, it was interesting because back when I was going to UT getting my engineering degree, one of the requirements that I had was to take a natural science. So, that was part of my degree requirements, and I just chose geology, just kind of because. It was like the one science that I didn’t have to take for engineering, and I really enjoyed it, and I remember leaving class one day and thinking, you know, if this engineering thing doesn’t work out, I can always go back to school for geology. I knew that I would really enjoy it.
Host: It was in the back of your mind, yeah.
Charis Krysher: And then, yeah, amazingly, ten years later, I went back for geology. I really didn’t, you know, really consider that as a real — this is really going to happen, and then it did, so.
Host: That’s cool. I like that career path. You’re going through, and I’m sure, you know, being an engineer and training flight controllers was super exciting, but you’re thinking about that next step and going back to what was in the back of your mind, something that you loved. That’s just a great way to assess a career path. What do I want to do? I want to do what I love.
Charis Krysher: Yes, yes, and you really, you know, as you’re going along, you’re collecting all of these dots, you know, skills and knowledge and interests, it is not until you go along your career and your life a little bit that you start to connect those dots and you start to really see how they all really do connect, but it does take a while, so.
Host: Yeah, so, Andrea, how did the dots connect for you? How did you end up in the lunar curation facility?
Andrea Mosie: Totally by accident. I actually majored in chemistry and math at Huston Tillotson College, now university, in Austin. I was a copycat sister, so I followed the path of my big sister. And she worked here at NASA. I was in premed before that, and I was in a program with UT Austin and Huston Tillotson, and I was going to become a doctor. After I realized how many years I would have to study continuously, I changed my mind, and I got my degree in chemistry and math and graduated, not knowing that shortly after that, I would continue going to school, and I got my master’s and physical science and geology from University of Houston Clear Lake. I actually love sciences, always like the sciences, and when the opportunity came up to work at NASA, I thought that would be great because my sister and brother-in-law worked here. I didn’t have transportation to get to work at the time, just graduating from college in ’75. So, I actually took the job so I would have transportation to work.
Host: You needed a ride.
Andrea Mosie: Yes.
Host: Important consideration when you’re finding where to work.
Andrea Mosie: I’ll tell you. So, that was my biggest concern. So, I took the job for that reason, and also knowing that I had been here at NASA during the Apollo missions. So, in 1969 I was here. I was a student at Evan E. Worthing High School, and they have a vocational office educational program. So, I actually worked in building four, with the astronauts during ’69, ’70, and ’71 when I was in high school.
Host: Wow, prime Apollo years.
Andrea Mosie: Yes, it was so exciting. So, I got to see astronauts almost on a daily basis. I mean, actually, it was really exciting. And so, it made a great impact on me. I can remember looking out of my boss’s window. There was no four South at the time. It was only building four. So, looking out of that corner window at the astronauts driving into the parking lot right there in red white and blue Corvettes. I know, they said it was a promotional thing, but for young student in high school, it was really exciting. So, that started my love for NASA and the space program and it continued on being in that same field, because that group actually was lunar missions, and one of our curators and some of the scientists actually came out of that group and then when I came back after graduating from college, they were in the area where I am now. So, I’ve actually been in building 31, pardon me, 31, working with the Moon rocks for 44 years.
Host: Forty-four years?
Andrea Mosie: Yes.
Host: Wow, what is it– I guess, I mean, this might be a dumb question, but what is it about it that so interesting that makes you want to stick around and keep looking at these types of samples?
Andrea Mosie: It’s different, in this is the only place in the world that you could work with, look at, be a part of the Apollo samples in this amount, sizes, capacity in the entire world.
Charis Krysher: Yep, on a daily basis.
Host: Wow.
Andrea Mosie: On a daily basis, yes.
Host: So, Andrea, if you were here in ’69 even through ’71, I mean, the samples that we’re going to talk about now were not even in this facility yet. They were gathered on — they were both on 17, right? So, this is ’72? Did I get that —
Andrea Mosie: Seventy-two, December of ’72.
Host: Seventy-two. So, you saw them arrive and you saw them sit there.
Andrea Mosie: I wasn’t — December of ’72, I wasn’t here at NASA at the time.
Host: You weren’t here at NASA.
Andrea Mosie: I was in college.
Host: You were in school.
Andrea Mosie: So, I was in school at the time.
Host: Ok.
Andrea Mosie: Then I came back, and they were here waiting for me. [Laughter]
Host: Ok. Waiting for you. Well, let’s go into it. Let’s talk about some of the samples. Let’s talk about the ones that we’re going to be opening now. Now they have fancy numbers attached to them, if you’re looking at the samples, 73002 and 73001. Tell us a little bit more about these samples. Why are they numbered the way they are, and what are they?
Charis Krysher: Well, you can tell which mission the sample was collected on by the first one or two digits. So, Apollo 11 started with a ten, and then, they got smart and actually named them after the missions. So, starting with the Apollo 12, that starts with a 12. Fourteen and 15 start with those digits. And then, 16 and 17, they brought back roughly half the total amount of samples across all Apollo missions, and they had so many samples that they ended up having to drop the one. So, Apollo 16 samples start with six. Apollo 17 samples start with a seven. So, the ones that we just opened, the ones we’re going to talk about today, were collected on Apollo 17.
Host: All right, interesting numbering system. How about that?
Charis Krysher: Yes.
Host: So, what is it about these particular samples, because we’re talking about just opening them very recently, in the first one, I think, was last year, right? And then, the other one is either coming up or —
Charis Krysher: Yes.
Host: Coming up, OK. So, these two samples, we been holding onto them for 50 years. What is so special about them? Where were they collected? What do they consist of? What are we talking about here?
Charis Krysher: Well, back in the Apollo days, they actually had the foresight to set aside certain amounts of samples, because they knew in the future, there were going to be new techniques, new questions, new developments in technology that could maybe get you more information, and they knew that they didn’t know everything at that time. They didn’t have everything, all the best techniques, at the time to do analysis. So, they purposely set aside a subset of the samples and kept them sealed until a future date at which those technologies would have been developed, those questions would’ve been asked, and then, you can go ahead and open up those samples and do the analysis, the new techniques, utilize the new technologies to go ahead and find out even more about the samples and even more about the history of the Moon.
Host: So, what’s good about keeping it preserved? You know, why not just open it, use the technologies you have the time, and then when better technologies come available later, then you can start using those?
Andrea Mosie: If you’ve used up all your samples, then you don’t have anything for the new technology, or if the samples may be contaminated in some way, which is what we make sure, in the lunar lab, in the pristine sample lab, pristine sample vault, the samples are processed there, and they’re stored in the vaults, and that way, they’re in a nitrogen-filled cabinet, a very pure type of nitrogen gas. They’re packaged, and we all use Teflon, aluminum, and stainless steel. Those are the only types of materials that are used in the lab, and we make sure that we have procedures for everything. So, we follow procedures to the T so that we’re doing everything not to contaminate the samples. We’re actually protecting the samples from us. When the samples first came from the Moon, there was — they wanted to quarantine to make sure they weren’t bringing anything back that was going to be a contaminant to human life or to Earth, and after the quarantine, we’re protecting the samples from us. We don’t want to expose them to our environment, because then you’re not researching or analyzing what came from the Moon you’re analyzing what possibly happened here on Earth.
Host: Oh, and you don’t want to waste that kind of time, right? You don’t want to spend a lot of time thinking about — you want to focus on what’s the history of the sample? What is the story? What is this trying to tell me? Now where were these collected? What do they consist of? Are we talking about, you know, is the sample a big rock, or is it just like a tube of dirt? You know, what are we talking about?
Charis Krysher: I like that, tube of dirt. [Laughter]
Charis Krysher: Right. So, 73002 and 73001 is actually what’s called a core sample. So, if you can imagine there’s these two tubes, they’re about, roughly, 30 cm, or so in length, and they’re screwed together in the middle, they’re attached in the middle. So, overall, you got a tube that’s about, eh, it’s probably a little less than three feet long. And so, what the astronauts did is they essentially turned this tube vertical on the Moon, and then they hammered it down into the soil as far as they could. And then, once it was all the way down, they pulled it back up and brought up with it, of course, an entire tube full of lunar soil.
Host: Perfectly preserved in the layers that they were on the Moon.
Charis Krysher: Yes, right.
Host: Interesting.
Charis Krysher: Exactly, and so, what they did is on the Moon, they separated the two tubes, so that the 73002 was the upper tube. So, that goes from the surface down to about, I think it was 23 centimeters originally, and then, 73001 is the lower part of that tube, which consists — I forget what the depth was, but 73002, which is the lower one, they went ahead and put into a special vacuum-sealed container on the Moon, so it was sealed, vacuum sealed, on the Moon, and then 73001, they went ahead and just packaged up the way they normally just did it and transported it back. So, the one that we went ahead and opened in November of this past year is 73001, that upper part of the dry tube.
Host: OK, OK, well, yeah, it was the 73001 that was — 002 was the one that was vacuum sealed or?
Charis Krysher: Zero-zero-one was vacuum sealed. Zero-zero-two was not vacuum sealed, although it was sealed on the Moon.
Host: Got it.
Charis Krysher: So, they didn’t put it into a special vacuum-sealed container, but they did put it into a bag, I believe.
Andrea Mosie:73002.
Charis Krysher: Yes.
Host: Yeah, so we opened — OK, so have opened the two. We have the non-vacuum-sealed one open right now, and we’re looking forward to opening that one that was vacuum sealed on the Moon, OK.
Andrea Mosie: Yes, absolutely.
Charis Krysher: And the reason this particular sample was so special was that it was collected in an area where there was a lot of landslide material. So, the hope was they would get some material from the highlands in that landslide material, as well as some volcanic information, some volcanic material, as well. There was some localized volcanism. So, that was one of the goals of this particular sample at the time that they collected it.
Host: That’s what’s geologically interesting about this. Not only are you getting the layers, you’re getting the story of the formation of the Moon, but there’s a lot geological activity. There is some stories there that you want to learn about.
Charis Krysher: Yes.
Host: OK, yeah, very exciting time then.
Charis Krysher: Yes, yes.
Host: All right, so let’s talk about the effort that it’s taken too, you know, like we said, these are samples that have preserved for 47 years, if you go back to 1972. So, there’s this, I think, maybe program or initiative, whatever you want to call it. A-N-G-S-A, ANGSA, is that it?
Andrea Mosie: Yes.
Host: Apollo Next Generation Sample Analysis. So, what is this effort?
Andrea Mosie: Well, we went through a tedious process of pulling out the samples and all the tools and everything that we did for the last core. The last core was processed about 25 years ago. And so, after saving this particular core for the next generation of samples, I’m just going to read this little —
Host: Make sure you say it right, yeah. [Laughter]
Andrea Mosie: Yes, the goal of the ANGSA Program is to maximize the science derived from samples returned by the Apollo program. And so, this is the first sample that the AGNSA Program is actually — has selected to do. It’s done by committee. You know, we have no input in that particular thing. The decisions were made, and what we actually do is dissect the sample, and that’s what is core extrusion and dissection of the sample. And there’s the tedious process of doing this. I think it takes probably about six months to dissect the core. Very close.
Charis Krysher: I think about six months total.
Andrea Mosie: To totally dissect the core.
Host: So, that’s your expertise, you’re processing the sample, and you want to make sure that whatever you do deliver to the researchers who have thought very carefully about this is what I want to look at. Your job is to make sure that that’s preserved and that they’re getting what they want.
Charis Krysher: Yes.
Host: OK.
Charis Krysher: Yeah, and then as part of — there are some other samples, as well, that we have not even started the process of opening, or dissecting. There were frozen samples. So, there have been samples that have been kept in a freezer since they were returned from the Moon. We also have samples–
Andrea Mosie: Some kept in helium.
Charis Krysher: –In helium rather than nitrogen, which is what the rest of the collection is kept.
Andrea Mosie: And so, those also, are under this same program.
Charis Krysher: ANGSA Program.
Andrea Mosie: ANGSA Program, yes, and there would be a determination made of what group of scientists actually get these samples and they have to put in their proposals of justifying what they’re looking for, which is kind of the same process they do for the lunar samples. You just can’t say I want to lunar sample, Apollo sample, and you’re given it. You have to put in a request, a justification showing what you assume you will find doing your analysis, and it’s either approve, tabled, or denied. And so, this committee will allocate samples to their team, whoever put in their request for analysis and either approved or denied. And some of the requests will not only be for this particular sample. Some will be also for other lunar samples that they may want to analyze using some of the different techniques, as well.
Host: Yeah, because there’s all these new technologies that might point towards something a little bit better.
Andrea Mosie: Absolutely.
Host: Or a little bit different, something we haven’t done before. Andrea, I think you’ve probably seen this probably more than most is the technologies that even are used for your job, just the core extrusion and analyzing and preparing samples and how the technology has progressed over time.
Andrea Mosie: Not for the core extrusion.
Host: Not for core extrusion, OK.
Andrea Mosie: Basically, we actually use the same tools. We had to go out and dig up and search out and find what we needed that was used.
Charis Krysher: And she’s not kidding. We did some digging. We went to these, you know, old warehouses. It was kind of like the warehouse Raiders of The Lost Ark where you got just the piles, you know, and you’re going through drawers, and you’re opening up boxes, and you’re pulling out, you know, dusty things that people, you know, shoved, you know, under a desk somewhere, you know, and trying to identify all of these pieces that you might be missing. And in my case, I wasn’t familiar with this equipment at all, you know, because last time it was used was —
Andrea Mosie: I had actually seen all of it, because I was assisting the last processor who did the core 25 years ago. So, I would be the next person to open the next core at that particular time. But when this opportunity came up, and I was asked who was going to open the next core, I quickly said Charis. [Laughter]
Charis Krysher: She passed the buck.
Host: But is there core opening or core extrusion work in your field of geology and some of the stuff you’ve studied in school and that you can transfer over to this?
Charis Krysher: I’m sure there was at some point, or I would have encountered it, you know?
Host: Yeah.
Charis Krysher: But when I was I was going to school, I was also working full time. So, I wasn’t out in the field a lot. I knew in theory there were core samples out there. I was actually watching some sort of science television show. I don’t even remember what it was. It might have been Nova, and they were going out into a lake, and they were taking a course sample of the lake bottom, and they just went out there with this tube, and they just hit it and stomped it into the bottom of the lake and then pulled it out, and then they extruded it into the field. They just wrapped it in plastic wrap and brought it back to the lab, and I was like that is so not what I had to go through.
Andrea Mosie: Absolutely. [Laughter]
Charis Krysher: That is so much easier.
Host: Yeah.
Charis Krysher: Y ‘all have no idea how easy you have it. You know, try doing that in the glovebox, you know, when you’re five foot nothing and, you know, your reach is limited, and it was quite the challenge getting all this stuff together and learning how it all worked together and then doing it in the box, and then in an enclosed box with limited mobility. So, oh, and all of the material and touching restrictions on the sample itself.
Andrea Mosie: Yes.
Host: So, we’re going to put you in this space where it’s super-hard to work with it in the first place, and oh, by the way, you can only touch it in certain ways in certain places and —
Charis Krysher: Yeah, with the tools. You can’t touch it with your hands.
Andrea Mosie: Which is the same with the Apollo samples. You cannot touch the Apollo samples with your hands. You can only touch them with tools or special gloves. And so, there’s a procedure.
Host: Yeah, makes you want to get a scuba certification and go to the bottom of the ocean. Maybe that’ll be a little bit easier for you. [Laughter]
Charis Krysher: Yeah.
Host: Well, yeah, let’s stick with the Apollo samples.
Andrea Mosie: I think so.
Host: Let’s go through the process of working with these samples, but starting with this sample that we recently opened, getting to that moment, I’m sure, was it an emotional moment for everyone to get out this old sample that’s almost 50 years old and say, all right, here we go?
Charis Krysher: Oh, yeah.
Host: Yeah.
Charis Krysher: Yes, yeah, so we had started the process about 18 months before we opened it. And so, that was when we were digging through the warehouses and all the storage facilities and getting all the stuff together. So, we had 18 months of preparation and anticipation and planning and talking and doing, and we did several practice runs ahead of time. So, we had all the equipment out on the tabletop without using a glovebox and just practiced putting it all together. Practice extruding the core, making sure that we understood how everything worked together, trying to anticipate any problems we would have encountered, and then we repeated all of that in a mock glovebox where we had a team that actually built us a glovebox that was the same size and dimensions that the actual core cabinet but not in a clean room. So, we didn’t have to worry about the clean room stuff. We didn’t have to worry about the samples and all of that. And so, we did all of that did that we did on the tabletop, we did then in the glovebox, the mock glovebox, just to get a feel for what it would be like and the glovebox, and then, we use the lunar simulant. So, we actually created and mixed together these different materials, different sand, different grain sizes, and extruded that to get a feel for what the actual extrusion would be like in the dissection, so we could practice that, and then —
Andrea Mosie: We did that several times.
Charis Krysher: Yes, we did that several times.
Host: You’re basically becoming a process, like an expert.
Charis Krysher: Yes.
Andrea Mosie: Yes.
Host: You get your techniques down. You’re limiting what is unpredictable. You’re trying to think about what, you know, this is exactly what our, to a certain extent, this is exactly what I’m going to expect whenever I actually open this thing, and these are the techniques I’m going to use.
Andrea Mosie: And trying to anticipate what was done in the future and what we needed to change for the present, because a few things change. We did change some — made some modifications.
Charis Krysher: We did. We did. We decided to put everything together outside of the box that we could ahead of time instead of trying to handle these tiny little screws inside of a glovebox with your hands in the gloves.
Andrea Mosie: Really tedious.
Charis Krysher: Yes, so, but then we got to the moment, I mean, that was, woo! Yeah, that was — you know, I got a little warm there, got a little sweaty. Yeah, that was incredible, and I’ve got the core in front of me, and the first thing that you have to do is you have to take off. It’s capped on both ends. So, you have to take off one end, and then, you pivot the core tube around, and then, you take off the other end.
Host: This is all in the glovebox, that you do in the box.
Charis Krysher: In the glovebox, right.
Host: And it’s your hands?
Charis Krysher: It’s my hands, and it’s facing me, and nobody else can see what’s going on. And then, to actually take off that cap, that cap that the last person who handles it was Gene Cernan on the Moon in 1972. Nobody else had touched it. That was my moment. That was the moment I had to stop do a little deep breathing.
Andrea Mosie: I was documenting everything, and I would type, “Charis is having a moment.”
Charis Krysher: I mean, I stopped, and I said, wait. I’m having a moment, and she did. She wrote that down on our documentation. “She’s having a moment.”
Host: Wow.
Charis Krysher: Yeah, that was very exciting.
Host: I can only imagine.
Charis Krysher: You know, who gets to have that, you know?
Host: Just you.
Charis Krysher: Just me.
Host: And it sounds like — and without an audience either. You’re standing by documenting, Andrea, but it sounds like there’s not — I’m imagining it like a theater, like you’re doing this in a theater. It’s not like that.
Charis Krysher: No, we had four people in the lab. We had Andrea, myself, and then, we had our two lunar curators. We had Dr. Ryan Zeigler and Dr. Juliane Gross were in there. And then we had a few of the science team members and a few of the other curators who were actually in our visitor viewing area, which is outside of the lab looking in, and documenting from the outside what was going on, and, oh, we did have the NASA photographer there. So, he was videotaping, as well as taking photographs during that moment. But yeah, we didn’t have a huge amount of people there. We didn’t want to be distracted, because this was such — I mean, we get one shot at this. That was it. And so, we didn’t want to have a huge audience their distracting us while we were doing our work.
Host: That’s important work. Absolutely. Well, tell me about — so, you open up the cap, and so, what are you thinking about to actually work with this sample, based on, I guess, what the researchers have asked for? Are you chipping off little pieces of it? Like how does it work to actually, you know, once you’ve opened it, now processing it?
Charis Krysher: OK, so imagine you’ve got this tube sitting on its side, and the way that we extracted it was, basically, we pushed from one end. We pushed the soil out through the tube into a tabletop, what we call the receptacle. And that receptacle is made up of aluminum plates, level plates, thin plates, and then, a quartz top that was sitting on top. It was just, basically, a glass top. So, you can see the entire core. It’s vertical. Underneath that glass, inside of this tabletop receptacle, and once we removed the glass top, now you have a, I’d like to say about 20 percent of the core that’s exposed above the tabletop, this tabletop receptacle. And so, what we do is we start from the top of the core, which is now sitting on its side, and we scoop in 5-millimeter segments all along the length of the core. And so, you can imagine, it’s very tedious. It’s very slow going. Anytime you encounter anything of interest, whether it be a really interesting clast, which is a fancy geologic term for a piece of rock, you stop. You document it, and by documentation, we mean describe it in words, as well as with photographs from different angles. You say where you got it from. You say what orientation it was, because we do keep orientations of the rocks. So, we know how it was exactly sitting when we encountered it, and then you can remove it and then keep on going. But that whole process, I mean, you can imagine why it does take six months. Because when you get to the bottom of the core, then you go back to that tabletop receptacle, and you remove several plates on each side. So, now you have a small part of the core sticking up above the tabletop again, and you repeat that whole process starting from the top moving to the bottom in 5-millimeter —
Host: Wow, I have such an appreciation for your focus and discipline for that, because that’s very precise cuts, but not only that, you’re focusing on the physical aspect of processing this in making sure that it’s being cut in a very precise, very measured way, but you have to have your geologically trained eye, because not everyone can just look at something and be like, that’s a very interesting piece of rock. Only a trained eye can look at that. So, you have to think about that. You have to think about the physical aspect of that, and then stretch that over — it was you, just you, for six months?
Charis Krysher: We’re not done.
Andrea Mosie: We’re not done.
Host: You’re still going?
Charis Krysher: Yes, yes, so, we are actually completing the first-pass dissection this week. So that very top 20ish percent, 25 percent, we’re getting ready to — we’re going to finish that up this week, and that will be the first pass. So, and we have two more passes to do.
Host: Crack your fingers.
Charis Krysher: So, yeah, so we’re not done, but yes, it does take a lot of attention to detail. It takes a lot of patience.
Andrea Mosie: And you can’t switch back and forth. I’m working in the cabinet with her doing certain things, but she’s a specialist for dissecting the core. When she’s dissecting, if she saying that the sample is loose or if I’ve flipped, flopping back to her, then what’s loose to her may not be the same consistency with me. So, you can’t flip-flop back and forth on dissecting. So, she is the only one who is actually doing the dissection of the core. For the extrusion, which was the part of pushing the sample out into the apparatus, Charis started off with that, and I ended up with the last part.
Charis Krysher: You get a little fatigued.
Andrea Mosie: Yeah.
Host: Because you have to do it so slow?
Andrea Mosie: Yes, so the process, so, and for whatever she needs in the cabinet, you’re in the cabinet working with her, but you’re handing her tools, or containers or packaging clasts or doing whatever needs to be done, but she is the only one that’s actually doing the dissection of the core.
Host:Phew!
Andrea Mosie: Yes.
Host: I cannot believe after all that time you’re still 20 percent done. Like that’s just — that’s crazy. I mean, but I appreciate your dedication, because what you’re doing is your job is to be that precise, be that detailed, document everything. So, when you’re handing it to a researcher they have the best information, the cleanest sample, the best prepared sample, that’s your job. Your job is to do that for them.
Charis Krysher: Yes, yes, so they can trust their analysis and they can trust the results.
Host: Yeah, so, do you have a certain mindset that you have coming into work every day, knowing that, OK, today I’m going to have to, you know, I have to be focused. I have to be disciplined. You know, like I wouldn’t drink coffee. I’d be all jittery from caffeine.
Charis Krysher: I have to have my coffee. I am not going into the lab until I finish my coffee. [Laughter]
Host: So, you’re the opposite. OK, yeah.
Charis Krysher: No, but you’re right. You’re right. So, we actually have a routine now that we’ve pretty much set where we go into the lab for about two hours in the morning, and then, we take a long lunch break. And then, we go in for two hours in the afternoon. Personally, I’ve found that that’s ideal for the way that I work. I can maintain my focus for about two hours. After about two hours, I’m starting to get hungry. I’m starting to get less focused, and we don’t want to rush this process. So, we work steadily. We take breaks when we need to. Sometimes that does involve we choose not go into the lab one day. Maybe we’re tired or there’s something else that might be distracting us. So, we choose not to go into the lab. So really, we try as best as possible to protect the integrity of our work and our work focus. So, because like we said earlier, we get one shot at this, and that’s it.
Host: Yeah, you can’t mess up.
Andrea Mosie: We work very well together.
Charis Krysher: Yes.
Andrea Mosie: It’s a great process.
Host: Yes.
Charis Krysher: We’ve got a great team.
Andrea Mosie: Yes.
Host: Good. Yeah, you need that. You need that, and I appreciate that attention to discipline and knowing like if you don’t have the right mindset going into this, that is, potentially a compromise sample. So, you’re not going to risk that.
Charis Krysher: Yes, Right.
Host: You’re going to take the time and make sure that you are ready, because you are the person. You are the person that’s cutting this. So, it has to be you. You have to be in the perfect like physical/mental mindset to do that.
Charis Krysher: Hence the coffee.
Host: Hence the coffee. [Laughing] well, tell me about the lunar curation facility. Andrea, you’ve worked there for, you said — at NASA, total, 44 years.
Andrea Mosie: Forty-four years on the science and engineering contract, several science and engineering contracts at NASA, so.
Host: OK, so tell me about — I mean, the reason that we’re saying, and we keep using this phrase, “Apollo sample,” is because the samples, the lunar samples we have in this facility are from the Apollo program, and that’s it.
Andrea Mosie: Yes, 1969 to 1972, six missions landed on the Moon bringing back 842 pounds of rocks, pebbles, and soil, and they are at Johnson Space Center in our vault, worked on in our curatorial facility. We have a pristine sample lab and vault, we have return sample lab and vault. The samples are worked on in nitrogen-field cabinets by mission. We don’t mix missions. The samples are never exposed to the lab without being packaged, and they are packaged in Teflon. There’s a procedure, like I said, for everything that we do. We transfer the samples from our vault, from specific cabinets. The samples are stored in trays but also in nitrogen cabinets. They are sealed trays, because we have inventoried all the samples that are in the vault. We have to keep records of everything. So, we have a database with all the sample numbers, sample waste, sample containers. So, if you’re looking for anything, you know exactly where to go to locate those samples. If a sample was allocated to a PI, or Principal Investigator, and they have worked on that sample when they return them to us, because they don’t get the samples to keep. They’re still property of the government. They come back to us. They send the history of what they have actually done to the sample, so that we, in turn, could allocate it to another PI if needed, if they know that what you did is not harmful for their analysis. Otherwise, the request may be made for a pristine sample, which is one that has not been sent out to anyone else, and if approved for that, we go into the vault, as I was saying, transfer it to the lab, to the specific cabinet, per mission, weigh the sample. The first thing you do is weigh the sample to make sure it’s the weight that is in our database or with imbalance tolerance. We take pictures. We document it the same way we have to document the core, because the astronauts took pictures of the samples on the Moon, gave them orientation. We have little orientation cues, north, south, east, west, top and bottom. We take pictures of the sample. If you break the sample, you flip the sample, you flip the cube, because if you look at our documentation, you could go back and tell where the center of a sample came from or the middle of a rock if you’ve broken it up into hundreds of pieces, because you have the documentation to put that back together, and that’s very important for the researchers. It’s very important for the researchers. They want to know how the sample was sitting on the Moon where it came from for the different type of analysis that they may be doing. So, we take extra care in handling the samples and making sure that no contamination is going to —
Host: No contamination that you’re tracking every —
Andrea Mosie: Everything.
Host: — part about it. Which direction it’s facing on the Moon. I wouldn’t have thought about that. But I think what’s most interesting is you’re doing all this for a very finite number of samples.
Charis Krysher: Yes.
Host: It’s just from the Apollo missions, and I’m sure that everybody wants them. I’m sure a lot of researchers want their hands —
Andrea Mosie: Everybody wants to. [Laughter]
Host: Yeah, right? They want to analyze, and so, you have to, when you’re processing a lot of these parts, you’re giving out, maybe small fractions, little chips.
Andrea Mosie: That’s exactly right.
Host: You’re not getting whole rocks at a time?
Andrea Mosie: No. Very small.
Charis Krysher: They average between half a gram and a gram usually per allocation.
Host: Right, and there’s a lot to learn. You know, you’re just talking about the Apollo landing sites. You’re talking about the geology of those sites. You know, we did have Dr. Harrison Schmitt on Apollo 17, a trained geologist, with that eye that said this is a very interesting part, and he — well, I don’t know he told Cernan like go there or how the direction was to get this particular sample where they were drilling, but to have that trained eye. Charis, I’m really interested to hear thinking about the future from your perspective, because thinking about this, we have a finite number of samples, thinking about Artemis and what the potential is there to look at new areas of the Moon and answer new questions. What are you looking forward to most, from your perspective, knowing what we have in our, I guess, database of Apollo samples, and just what the future holds for what’s to come?
Charis Krysher: I’m really, really interested in seeing the comparison between what has been learned from the Apollo samples versus what they’re going to learn from the Artemis samples. So, they’re going to go to new collection sites. They’re going to get samples from — I think they’re looking at —
Andrea Mosie: The South Pole.
Charis Krysher: The South Pole, yes. So, permanently shadowed regions. So, rocks that have been cold and preserved for billions, billions of years and I’m really, really excited to learn what they learn from those particular samples and then compare it to what we’ve learned from the Apollo samples so far, what we know so far from just this one collection. So, I mean, yeah, it just, woo! [Laughter]
Host: That’s what’s really going through your mind is the possibilities, you know, the questions that we can’t answer. You know, maybe there’s something very interesting about being in a permanently shadowed region that this might be able to answer that maybe another part of the Moon can’t.
Charis Krysher: Right, one of the things is when you’re talking about these kinds of cold temperatures, you’re talking about the volatiles, the things that the —
Host: Like ices?
Charis Krysher: Yes, that would have evaporated in direct sunlight. So, those haven’t maybe had a chance to escape yet. So, what can you learn about those kind of — those gases that might not be present in the Apollo samples? So, that’s going to be really exciting, because I think that’s going to be answering a lot of questions from the very early solar system.
Andrea Mosie: Because there was a time when we were doing tours in the lab. We would say there’s no water on the Moon. And now, in the same context, we don’t say there’s no water on the Moon. There’s water-ice. There’s evidence of water-ice. So, that’s been a change, and that’s because of the Apollo samples. The research that was done on the Apollo samples. So, we need to go further and find out more. That’s why exploration is so important.
Host: Now what is the lunar curations facility’s role in this? Are you thinking about, you know, what happens when the Artemis samples come back, how to store them? Are you thinking about what tools and ways to preserve some of these samples collected from permanently shadowed regions? How involved are you at this time?
Charis Krysher: Go ahead.
Andrea Mosie: Actually, our facility has space for more samples. We’ve been waiting for more samples a long time. [Laughter]
Host: It’s exciting, though. We have the space. Come on!
Andrea Mosie: We have space, so we’re ready. I think the tools that we have, there will be some modifications, I think, but what we use, actually, is probably good for the samples that are returned. I mean, speaking of cold curation in other areas, they would have to do some designing and some other things that they possibly would do there, but we have the facility. We have space for more samples, and some modifications will need to be made, but we’re ready.
Charis Krysher: Yeah, just for an example, one of the tools that we use the most is a hammer and a chisel, because we are so 21st-century in our lab, [ laughter] but it’s really hard to improve on that, just that very basic tool. So, that’s pretty much where we’re going to start.
Andrea Mosie: Tweezers to scoop.
Host: Tweezers, hammer, and chisel.
Charis Krysher: Yeah.
Host: Yeah, look at this. New generation right there. No, but if you have just the right training, you have — the need is met.
Charis Krysher: Right.
Host: The need is met. You can work with that. That’s very exciting. You know, it’s fascinating to hear the story about these unopened samples and just, there’s new ways to analyze even Apollo samples, but then hearing that there is this next step that they were thinking about Artemis, and we are excited about new questions, just a wonderful, wonderful thing.
Andrea Mosie: And one thing we’re already doing is [Computerized Tomography] CT scanning the samples because as we pull out these clasts out of the core, we package them and send them to our CT lab, which, years ago, we did not have. Samples were x-rayed.
Charis Krysher: Yes.
Andrea Mosie: And so, with technology, that’s an advancement of technology. So, these are going straight to our CT lab, and they’re scanning them, and the scans are awesome.
Charis Krysher: Oh, they’re so — they’re like works of art. It’s just really beautiful.
Host: What are they showing?
Charis Krysher: So, we’re getting all sorts of different — you can actually tell what type of rock the clast is just by CT scanning it. So, you can actually look inside this tiny little clast, and you can see the different types of mineral grains that make up the rock. So, you can tell if this tiny, little clast that’s coated in dust, that you can’t really tell what color it is, let alone what might be in it just from looking at it. You can tell if it’s a basalt. You can tell if it’s an anorthosite, which is a type of plagioclase.
Andrea Mosie: Agglutinate.
Charis Krysher: Yeah, you can tell if it’s a piece of melt, like glass melt, just from these scans of looking inside of it. So, it’s super exciting, super exciting, and that is not something that they had back in 1972. They x-rayed the core when it came back, but before we actually extruded it, we had it CT scanned, so we could anticipate what we were going to find inside of this sample.
Host: And when you’re looking at all of these different minerals, and what you’re thinking about is the story that that tells, what happened to this particular region, what happened to the Moon?
Charis Krysher: Right, where did this — because one of the interesting things we already saw from just scanning these different particles is that they didn’t come from the same rock. So, we might have two different basalts, but they came from a different rock all together. But they ended up in this one sample. How did that happen? Was it, maybe, the landslide? Was it a nearby impact? You know, what happened to these — inside of these particular samples, what’s the history of these two different basalts. So, I mean, there’s just even more and more questions coming at me as we continue to dissect these things.
Host: It’s so exciting, but it’s definitely not cheese, right?
Charis Krysher: No, it’s not cheese. I’m sorry.
Andrea Mosie: No cheese.
Host:Yeah, we can rule that one out. [Laughter]
Charis Krysher: Yeah.
Host: Well, Charis and Andrea, this was such a fun conversation about just this incredible moment of opening up this perfectly preserved sample and what we have to look forward to and the delicate process of working with that, just a fascinating conversation. Thank you both for coming on the podcast today.
Charis Krysher: Thank you for having us.
Andrea Mosie: Thank you, and I’d like to also add that Charis is such an awesome person, and doing a magnificent job doing this.
Charis Krysher: Thank you very much.
Andrea Mosie: So, hats off.
Host: Thank you, Charis.
Charis Krysher: Couldn’t without the whole team, because the whole team was involved.
Host: And thank you Andrea.
Andrea Mosie: Thank you.
Host: You’re working right there beside her.
Andrea Mosie: Thank you.
[ Music ]
Host: Hey, thanks for sticking around. Really great conversation we had today with Charis and Andrea. Really good to hear the emotions of what it took to actually open that sample, all the work that led up to that moment. A really fascinating discussion we had today. If you like this podcast, we have a lot more on Houston, We Have a Podcast. You can find us at NASA.gov/podcasts, along with the many other podcasts that are all throughout NASA’s agency. You can check them all out on that page. If you want to talk to us, we are on NASA Johnson Space Center pages of Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Use the hashtag #AskNASA on your favorite platform to submit an idea for the show. Just make sure to mention it’s for Houston, We Have a Podcast. This episode was recorded on February 18, 2020. Thanks to Alex Perryman, Pat Ryan, Norah Moran, Belinda Pulido, Jennifer Hernandez, Kelly Humphries, and Noah Michelsohn. Thanks again to Charis Krysher and Andrea Mosie for taking the time to come on the show. Give us a rating and feedback on whatever platform you’re listening to us on and tell us how we did. We’ll be back next week.