From Earth orbit to the Moon and Mars, explore the world of human spaceflight with NASA each week on the official podcast of the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas. Listen to in-depth conversations with the astronauts, scientists and engineers who make it possible.

On Episode 232, Kris Brown and Emily Calandrelli describe the importance of inspiring young women to pursue an interest in science, technology, engineering and math. This episode was recorded on January 27, 2022.

Transcript

Gary Jordan (Host): Houston, we have a podcast! Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, Episode 232, “Her Passion for STEM.” I’m Gary Jordan, and I’ll be your host today. On this podcast we bring in the experts, scientists, engineers, and astronauts all to let you know what’s going on in the world of human spaceflight and more. NASA offers opportunities in a number of science, technology, engineering and math, or STEM, disciplines, to contribute to space exploration, scientific discovery, and so much more. Whether you’re interested in microbiology, electrical engineering, exoplanets – there’s probably something for you. Even more exciting, the space industry is growing, and opportunities inside and outside NASA are becoming more numerous. And even outside of the space bubble, the possibilities to have a rewarding career in STEM truly blossom. Particularly for young girls who have an interest in STEM, there may be some point in your life where you may not know how you can explore your passion, or worse, you can be deterred from pursuing a career that you may love. That’s why on this episode, we’re bringing in two role models of women in STEM, both inside and outside NASA, to talk about what inspired them and to share some advice, particularly for young women interested in STEM on how to pursue their dreams. From NASA, we have Kris Brown, deputy associate administrator of STEM Engagement, who has been with the agency for more than 25 years in a number of different roles. From outside NASA, we’re bringing in Emily Calandrelli, a science communicator and influencer. She’s known for hosting the Netflix show “Emily’s Wonder Lab,” and as the author of the “Ada Lace” series. It was certainly inspiring to chat with these two people, and I hope you are inspired as well. Here’s Kris Brown and Emily Calandrelli. Enjoy.

Host: Kris and Emily, thank you so much for coming on Houston We Have A Podcast today.

Emily Calandrelli: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Kris Brown: Gary, great to be with you. Looking forward to the conversation.

Host: It is certainly going to be a good one. I am talking with two very inspiring people here. Just reading your backgrounds and what you’ve done, and what you are doing, it is, it is truly inspiring. We’re going to try to hit the NASA, we’re going to hit outside of NASA because STEM is not something that’s just exclusive to our efforts, it truly is universal. I wanted to start by talking about both of you and your personal experience. Growing up, what inspired you to pursue what you’re, what you’re passionate about, from your own words. Of course, I introduced you in the beginning here, but I think this will help us to help, to help establish just, you know, your role in the world of STEM. Kris, why don’t we start with you?

Kris Brown: Sure, Gary, thanks. So for me, I grew up in a small rural factory town in central Pennsylvania, and I was the first person in my family to go to college. I always like to share that tidbit about myself up front because I’ve learned firsthand, truly, the power of education in creating possibilities and shaping futures. My journey in STEM began early, being one of only two girls my age in our small neighborhood. It all began with me building roads, literally, in the dirt piles behind our houses with all the boys in the neighborhood. What emerged during my early childhood was discovering my love for building. My dad brought home a LEGO set when I was six, and I got immersed in building things which led to discovering my love for drawing, art, and design. In school, I had a strong affinity for math and science, and my favorite aspects of that typically were labs and challenging projects. There were limited opportunities where I grew up, so almost all of what I was able to explore in STEM was in school. Given my love for art, drawing, and design combined with those interests in math and science, I decided I wanted to actually be an architect. I majored in architecture, and then after my first year, I ended up in engineering. Maybe I can share a little bit more on that in a bit.

Host: Yeah, why don’t we go into that, because, of course, you had a pretty good understanding, it seems like, of your own interests, and you decided to merge all of that into architecture. It is a little bit about that, right? It’s about understanding design, it’s a little bit about artistic expression, but ultimately you got to build the thing. What made you transition to engineering? How did that, how did that world open up for you?

Kris Brown: Yeah, absolutely. And Gary, you make a good point. I think that STEM folks, sometimes we get a little bit of a weird and not necessarily accurate stereotype or rap, but we are all very much creative souls, and do a lot of creating in the work that we do. So for me, I had this very interesting realm of possibilities that I was contemplating thinking about college. As a musician, I considered that as a career; medicine was a little bit in the mix there for a little bit; but with my family’s economic status and limited resources, I decided that medicine probably wasn’t quite for me. And in the end I really did focus on that intersection of what I was passionate about, which is the thing that we always talk about when we talk to students, that affinity for math and science, and then my interests in, in design, and drawing and building. And so, architecture was really a great choice. I landed at Virginia Tech, which had a — it was, had a great architecture program with a strong design orientation. But as I moved through that program, early on, I realized that what I resonated most with was that practical side of architecture, the building piece. And Frank Lloyd Wright was my hero. He was first an engineer. After a period of discernment, I decided that engineering was probably a better fit for me, and it truly did play out that way.

Host: Kris, I’m certainly going to circle back on some of your, you know, some of those studies, and then I find it interesting, I want to put a pin in this, that you, of course, you were looking at role models. And of course, you had male role models in the roles, but I — want to actually focus on this for just a second, your male role model, right, what you wanted to do, you found someone that, you know, that was, that was inspiring to you. But of course, I think it is inspiring as a, as a young woman, to find inspiration from a person who sort of, who looks like you, right? To find maybe a female role model. Do you find that that is important, or do you find, maybe you can find, maybe it’s a mix of both? Whether it’s important or whether it is also important to find that same level of inspiration in women?

Kris Brown: Yeah, I think you hit on a great point, Gary. There is, there is a lot to be said about — it’s really the immense importance of having students see themselves, literally be able to envision themselves, in a future career. And that’s by seeing people doing those things who look like them. And I think that’s a really powerful tool for us to really think about how do we place vibrant, amazing role models out there, so that, especially students who are typically from communities that are underserved and underrepresented in STEM, can, can really envision what is possible for them, and be able to dream about things that perhaps they might not have been able to do without seeing that person out there in front of them. And so, I know for me, very much throughout a lot of my career, almost all of my role models were men, because when I started out in engineering less than 9% of the workforce were women, and literally, I was the only woman engineer in the room most of the time. So, a lot of my powerful mentors early in my career were men. I did, of course, as I moved through my career, be able to communicate and spend time with women who were in the field, and we pretty much stuck together and learned from each other. And then as I progressed even further, there were some — very few — women role models in engineering at that time at NASA who were in management and leadership positions, and they were also extremely influential in my career. I’m sure Emily will talk more about that as well.

Host: Oh, absolutely. And Kris, I absolutely want to explore your career at NASA and really dive into that, just, you know, the role models and the challenges just like that with being one of the only women in the room having a voice to, to talk engineering. I’m certain that came with challenges, and we’ll certainly explore that later. But to your point, we of course, have another wonderful guest, Emily Calandrelli. Emily, tell us a little bit about yourself in your early career that led you to where you are.

Emily Calandrelli: Yeah. Kris, I thought that was so interesting because I actually was also very initially interested in architecture because, for me, my favorite courses throughout high school and schooling were art and math, and the natural marriage of those two things seemed to be architecture. But my school, my state school that had the cheapest tuition for me and my family, did not offer an architecture program. And so I thought that I would go into engineering first and then maybe get a masters somewhere else in architecture. And the financial aspect of it all, it really speaks to me because my father grew up in poverty in West Virginia and worked his way up to middle class, where my family lived. And so I had that legacy in the back of my mind when I went to figure out what I wanted to study in college, and honestly, as a high school senior, I looked up all the starting salaries of the different majors that one could major in, and I found that engineers made the most money, and that’s really how I decided to go into engineering. I didn’t know any scientists or engineers growing up. I’m the first person in my family to pursue a degree in STEM. And so I kind of reluctantly joined engineering as a career, and then once I was there, learned of all of the just incredible opportunities that students who pursue a degree in STEM have at their disposal. I was able to travel the world and do internships and paid research. I was able to fly on NASA’s “Vomit Comet” doing microgravity research. I went to Mexico with Engineers Without Borders to help a community in need with engineering tools that we were learning in the classroom, and these are all the things that made me become so enthusiastically obsessed with engineering and aerospace and NASA. And that’s the message that I try to share today, that it is just, it’s so much more than you think it is. And yes, you will end up with a good paying job in the end: that part is very true, but there are also many fun adventures along the way that are fulfilling, and you’ll be able to help the world and it’s just, it’s – that is the message I try to share with the younger generation today.

Host: And Emily, kind of going, following Kris’s path here, while, while you were exploring engineering and going through, did you have role models? Male, female, either one, did you have role models that inspired you in one direction or another?

Emily Calandrelli: I mean, the people that inspired me throughout my life are the people who do, as Kris mentioned, combine that creativity with their love of science and engineering, because we all have, I think, society in general, has this assumption that engineers or people in STEM are only right brains, right? And so, they, when people can combine their creativity skills and their love of something that is not simply science or engineering with their hardcore knowledge of science or engineering, that I think creates something magical and unique and really captivating. And so, people like Bill Nye have always been people that I’ve looked up to, because he’s someone who knows his science but is also an entertainer, which is a science in its own right. I think he’s very funny, I think he’s very entertaining, and he’s a great public speaker, and these are skill sets that aren’t typically taught in an engineering classroom. And so, when you can combine those types of skills, I think that you create something that can capture a wide audience, so those are the types of people that I look up to.

Host: And it certainly had an influence on you, it seems, because of course you’re an engineer and you explored a technical field, but you ultimately became a science communicator. Can you talk about that transition from engineering to being the person, exactly what you’re describing, that entertaining aspect and inspiring others?

Emily Calandrelli: Right, so that was just a very coincidental career change. It wasn’t something that I sought out. I was graduating from MIT from graduate school and looking for a job. And I had just finished my masters in technology and policy, and was likely going to end up somewhere in D.C., trying to influence science and tech[nology] policy, and I got a call from a production company that asked me if I wanted to be the host of a new space TV show. They had found me because throughout my college career I had done a lot of outreach. Outreach was always something that I loved doing. I loved practicing public speaking. I loved trying out different arguments as to why NASA is worth public funds, why space technology is worthwhile. That was something that I loved to do in my spare time, and so there were these videos of me talking about NASA and its value to the country. And so, they saw that I had the background for it, the educational background for it, and was able to talk about it in a way that would hopefully resonate with audiences and families across the country, and I thought that sounded like quite the adventure. That was, let’s say, eight years ago now, nine years ago now. And it has been, it has unfolded into something that I could never have imagined, with various TV shows and books and public speaking and social media and TikTok and just a wonderful array of mediums to talk about my love of science and space.

Host: And that’s certainly important. That’s how we , you know, we inspire girls is by communicating to them by offering content that they can connect with and, you know, we’ve been talking about role models, by giving them role models people that they can look up to and sharing that, and there’s various ways to do that. I certainly want to explore that on today’s podcast. Before we do though, I want to focus on a topic. Today, we’re going to be talking about women in STEM. Why exactly are we doing this? I think, I think, we’ve alluded to it a little bit before. Kris, I want to jump to you because one of the things you mentioned is that, one of the reasons that we’re talking about this today, is when you were, when you were a young engineer at NASA, you had to, you know, you had to be one of the very few women representing STEM at the time. It’s not a field that is, that is, I guess, highly pursued for one reason or another. So Kris, can you give us a little bit of an overview on just women in STEM and what it is exactly, you know, why are we talking about this today?

Kris Brown: Sure, Gary. Yeah, so — if you look back when, as you mentioned, when I started, there were so few women in engineering in particular. And while I think we’ve made some strides since then, as a country, with respect to upping, ramping up on women in STEM, I think we haven’t made enough progress. It’s interesting that literally just this week, new data has come out from the National Science Foundation in their annual science and engineering indicators report. And I can share a few tidbits from that, which I think paints the picture of the challenges that we have. So while women make up 52% of the college-educated U.S. workforce, only 29% comprise the science and engineering workforce, so this is a big improvement over years ago. Fifty years ago, women made up only 8% of STEM workers, but in some notable fields, particularly in the physical science and computer science, the disparity is really still large. For instance, women make up less than 16% of the engineering workforce, and only 25% of the computer science workforce. Unfortunately, women of color are even more underrepresented. Hispanic women make up only 2.3% of the science and engineering workforce; Black women make up 2.5%, indigenous women make up less than 1%. And beyond gender overall, we need to shift the demographics of the science and engineering workforce, men and women: Asians earned 11% of bachelor’s degrees in science and engineering fields, Hispanics 15%, Black or African Americans 8.5%, American Indian or Alaska Natives .4%. So in order to reflect our nation’s population and the population that we serve in STEM, we clearly need to do better. Not to mention sustaining that the idea of a healthy pipeline of future STEM workers in order to meet demands that we are so vividly experiencing globally in public health, climate change, the need for technological advances in, in, across multiple sectors. So I think in particular for women, while I think in certainly in medicine and some of the other sciences, women have made great strides. In some of the — in some, again, some notable fields, and particularly that of computer science and engineering, we need to do so much better.

Host: So Emily, taking some of the stats that Kris is sharing with us today, you mentioned you’ve been a science communicator for a number of years now, and of course, I’m sure you have an idea about your audience, right? What have you seen just over the years on, perhaps how that audience has changed? Just based on, seeing such low numbers across the board, do you think efforts like being a science communicator and creating various products to reach out, do you think that’s having a positive influence on inspiring more, more women viewership?

Emily Calandrelli: Absolutely. I mean, I’m seeing it firsthand. When I first started out eight or nine years ago, the vast majority of my audience were male, and that was when I was mostly just creating content geared toward a college and older demographic, right? And then I started working on projects that were geared toward a younger generation, toward middle school and high school, and then most recently I did “Emily’s Wonder Lab” on Netflix, which is geared toward ages three and up, three to 10, really. And my audience demographic, demographic has shifted completely, and now the vast majority of my audience, 65% to 75% on some platforms, is women, is girls. And I think that’s because once you get down to a younger generation, a lot of those stereotypes that kids have of who is supposed to end up in what career haven’t seeped in quite yet. They haven’t seen that the vast majority of TV shows and movies and books that feature scientists and engineers feature men or simply feature very, like, you know, the Einstein-style stereotype of crazy hair and glasses and old and white and just your very stereotypical scientist, but that hasn’t happened for them yet. Maybe, for many of them, the first scientist they’ve ever seen on TV is me on “Emily’s Wonder Lab,” and that’s what they think of when they think of what is a scientist or what is an engineer? And so, those stereotypes are changing slowly over time. I do a number of different partnerships with companies, but one of the ones that I am really proud of is with Olay who is working on doubling the number of women in STEM by 2030. And just like Kris said, the number of women in color, women of color in STEM, is even worse, and they are working to triple the number of women of color in STEM by 2030. And one of the ways that they’re doing that, because obviously this is just a very complex situation and there’s many reasons for why this is, but they are trying to improve the number of female mentors that young students have by working with organizations like Million Women Mentors. And just providing that representation, so that younger kids can see a person that kind of looks like them in a career that’s in science and engineering.

Host: Kris, building off of what Emily is saying, she described, you know, a rise in, in women viewership, addressing certain demographics, younger audiences, and actively pursuing some of the metrics that you were mentioning, all these — you know, all of the different minority groups that have fewer women going into these, specifically targeting them. This is, this is a universal thing, as Emily was mentioning. This is an effort that is shared. It’s not just NASA-specific, but I’m curious on what NASA is doing.

Kris Brown: Yeah, Emily, just, your story, in terms of the increase in those metrics is just so powerful, and it’s demonstrative of what is really possible in the collective work that we do. One of our key goals, Gary, as you mentioned, NASA is very, we’re very devoted to building that next generation of explorers. It’s one of our key goals, and we see that attracting and engaging students in STEM educational opportunities is so important in order to develop that diverse future STEM workforce. I mean, we’re all in this together. Emily mentioned some partnerships: we actually share some of those partnerships as well in that we, we know that we can’t do it alone, we NASA. We have a unique role to play, and I think have a great capacity in inspiring and engaging students through the work that we do and the people who do that work, but we’re also very committed to partnerships with all, all of these various organizations and stakeholders who really want to build up a science literacy in our country and also are committed to engaging students in STEM. At NASA we’ve got a whole set of opportunities that we offer for students, and teachers, and schools and universities to engage with us and the work we do. And many of those learning opportunities for students and their teachers actually allow them to contribute to our work in exploration, science, technology, and aeronautics. First of all, we have lots of great learning opportunities that are online, that are available to students and teachers. Some are designed for use in the classroom, and others are really for students to learn independently at home with their families. And we also provide opportunities associated with many of our NASA missions so that students can learn about what those missions are designed to do, but also learn about some specific subject areas. For instance, I’m sure many of the listeners out there, I hope, have been watching what’s been happening with our newly launched James Webb Space Telescope. It is amazing; it’s incredibly exciting. We have a STEM toolkit for Webb that’s online that provides a whole number of learning opportunities for students and I would encourage them to go out there and look for that. We have the upcoming Artemis I mission to launch later this spring. We’re going to launch the biggest rocket ever, and students can find opportunities to engage with NASA through that on our “Join Artemis” website. And then for students in middle school and high school, we have student challenges and competitions. And these are really fabulous opportunities for students to learn and get hands-on experiences in designing and building systems, and to do that working independently but also in teams. One example I’d want to highlight is last week I participated in an event where we announced 57 winning teams for our TechRise challenge. These student teams from all across the country designed climate or remote sensing instruments that will fly on a high-altitude balloon, and space exploration instruments that will fly aboard a suborbital rocket. Those are incredible experiences for students, and they help them learn about what it’s like to work in STEM and help also prepare them for college. And then finally, I wanted to mention that we have partnerships, as Emily noted, with organizations to broaden our reach and impact. For example, we have a partnership with the Girl Scouts, and they are hosting right now Girl Scouts to the Moon and Back, an essay contest for all Girl Scouts across the country which opened January 18th. And we also have relationships with Million Women Mentors, and other organizations that are devoted to reaching students where they are and in, in reaching students from underserved and underrepresented communities.

Host: This is truly a, it’s a wider effort, right? It takes, it seems like it takes all of us to really share this message, and it truly is, it sounds like a very shared goal. There are many organizations, people, trying to, trying to address this; NASA is certainly one of them. But it’s not, you know, necessarily — you know, we, we have all these great tools, but, you know, I don’t want to distract from the fact that of course, that this is — and, you know, these are underserved communities, these are underrepresented communities, and of course that comes with a series of challenges, right? It’s not just maybe perhaps a lack of interest that is the reason that girls are not pursuing these careers, but perhaps there are other challenges as well. Emily, I wanted to start with you. Just, you know, if you can, if you can think of one, to share, to share an experience of a challenge, right? I mean, of course, pursuing, pursuing something you’re interested is one thing, but it doesn’t mean it’s just, you know, oh, I love exploring this and everything’s fine; of course, pursuing that along the way is going to have your speed bumps, your obstacles, your roadblocks. Did you experience anything along the way through your career as you were exploring this passion of yours?

Emily Calandrelli: Yeah. I mean, there’s so many different things. I think one of the ones that is common for a lot of engineers is getting over a fear of public speaking. For me, that was something that I learned that I needed to have much more confidence in, in order to be good at my job. And I go back and I watch the first season of the show, the show that picked me up after I graduated from MIT with no TV experience whatsoever, and unsurprisingly, when I go back and watch that, there are some cringeworthy moments where I can tell that I am just out of my element. I’m very uncomfortable. I’m not confident in myself. And so for me, I needed to go back and reevaluate why I wanted to do this in the first place, is this something that I want to be good at, and I decided that it was because I think that media, especially TV and social media, can be incredibly powerful to change the global consciousness of society, especially for younger students. And so, I learned that I wanted to be good at it, and so I had to critique myself and I had to figure out why it felt cringeworthy, because it’s so hard to see something, to see yourself on camera and be like, ooh, that’s not fun to watch, but why: why does that feel awkward? And part of the reason is just, it’s usually when you’re just not confident enough, and one of the ways to get over that is to simply do it a bunch. And the more you do it, the better you get at it, the more comfortable you’re going to get at it, as long as you’re willing to evaluate yourself and self-critique and maybe even take advice from others and do all of these things that one does to get better at any skill in life. And so, for me, getting good at talking on camera and finding my own voice was a challenge in the beginning and something I had to really work toward overtime.

Host: Emily, I’m connecting so much with this because I — same exact thing, right? I mean, just with TV and even this podcast, just listening back to some old stuff I’m just like, ugh, really, Gary? But I wonder, in your experience, right, I think, I think — that piece of advice that you gave is so critical. It is to look past it, to self-analyze, to really try to do better. What was it, you know, that, that really was that driving force that made you, and this is the key here, not quit, that made you want to keep going?

Emily Calandrelli: I mean, I learned that it was fun. I think I found the joy in it, and I, that joy was what drove me. I was like, this is something that I want to be really good at. And so, I tried different types of ways to be good at it, because just doing one thing, sometimes, is not likely to lead to success. For me, it meant doing my work on TV with my TV show, but then also practicing in my own time on social media, because it’s hard to find your own voice when you have a bunch of cameras and lights and strangers around you. And for me, it was, I was able to find my confidence, find my voice in front of a camera, by using my smartphone, by using my smartphone camera to film social media things and just be authentic and share my experience with the world and really ask myself, why am I excited about this piece of science and space technology that I am supposed to be sharing with the world and get them excited? Because if I’m not first excited, how can I expect them to get excited? And so, I had to dive deep into why I was passionate about the things that I was sharing, and once I did that it became relatively easy, because I found that when I was too focused on being a quote-unquote, “TV presenter,” I was less focused on my natural ability to just be excited about science and technology. And so, once I focused on why I was excited about it, then it became much easier to exude that excitement through TV hosting.

Host: I certainly want to circle back on that, because I think that’s a key here in terms of what it takes to inspire young girls, but I wanted to talk to Kris about sort of the same challenges. Kris, I’m sure, I’m sure you have some, some challenges that made you maybe want to quit, but regardless of that feeling you still pursued what you loved. Did you have something like that in your career coming up?

Kris Brown: Yes, indeed. I think first of all, I just want, I just want to note that I think we’re all thrilled, Emily, that you persevered and persisted and did that deep dive because I think you’re bringing so much richness into this conversation and creating lots of new possibilities for some of these young girls. So, kudos to you.

Emily Calandrelli: Oh, thank you. [Laughter]

Kris Brown: Yeah, I think for me, it’s similar. It’s this, kind of the similar notion and theme of working in STEM is challenging, and there’s lots of complexities. And I do remember sometimes feeling as if I was just in over my head. How can I do this? I think that college prepares you to enter the workforce, and then especially in aerospace, given the complexities of the work that we do, and the safety implications and all of those things, is that there are so many, so many interfaces and different aspects of our work that it, it’s exceedingly dynamic. And so, what I recall many times is thinking, ugh, you know, I just try to keep up that energy and trying to be able to repeatably take on some element of a design or analysis. And I remember there were many nights where I would be working many hours and waking up through the night to, to resubmit my, my analysis. So, you would submit things to the mainframe computer, at that time, and have things come back in the wee hours of the night and you’d need to turn it around. And so, there’s just that idea of perseverance and sticking with it and that, that is, while it’s difficult in those moments, I think, as Emily said, that it was really unbelievably exciting. And that, that dynamic nature of the work that we do in STEM, I think provides so much opportunity, not only to learn and to, to contribute, but also, what we do is just so important from a societal point of view. If you think about the creative, the things that we create out of STEM that have made earth-shattering changes to our everyday lives, and made such a positive difference in, in society and, and it’s really powerful and it is so exciting as, as the prospect of a career for young people. And, I think as I mentioned earlier, we have so many challenges, that, that STEM is really at the heart of those challenges. Climate change is probably the first that comes to mind for me, in that there’s so much work yet to be done, and that work is, is not only inherently exciting and powerful, but it also has grand possibilities with respect to impact.

Host: Yeah, you can, if you’re passionate about a thing, you can get really good at that thing, and you can make a grand difference, something as grand as climate change, right, affecting the, affecting everybody. But Kris, there was something that you said earlier, when we were chatting. When you were, when you were pursuing what you, what you love, you mentioned that you had an affinity for math and science, and I think that is a key here because I had — you know, I’m speaking from my own personal experience here but — I certainly had an interest in science. I just really was not good at it. And I wonder to what extent, if you’re pursuing a STEM career, where that passion for math and science meets that affinity, meets that natural talent to be able to, to easily understand, and what you would recommend maybe for, for young girls, really everyone, who may be struggling in, in being passionate about something but not necessarily super good at it?

Kris Brown: Yeah, that’s a good question, Gary. I think what, what came to mind immediately is, I don’t know how many mothers that I’ve talked to that I’ve heard that story of, “oh, my daughter,” or something like to the effect of “oh, you’re an engineer at NASA; wow, that’s so cool.” And then translating, “my daughter is not very good at math, or she doesn’t really like math. She’s like me.” And so I think that there’s kind of at work a number of different facets. I think one is perhaps societal influence, right? Is that, especially for girls, that — it’s maybe slightly more OK to not, to not be as good at math. So, I think sometimes girls don’t necessarily always get the encouragement that maybe they deserve in terms of their ability to perhaps learn math or struggle, as you said, struggle through it. Right? That some folks, it maybe doesn’t come quite as naturally to them, but that said, there’s a lot out there with respect to possibilities in terms of support and resources for students, whether it be girls or boys, to learn, to learn math and to have perhaps an easier time at it. So, I think where, as you said, kind of the intersection between a passion for, say science and maybe-I’m-not-so-good-at-math, or the idea of the challenges inherent in that. I do think that some of the opportunities that certainly I didn’t have when I was young because of where I grew up, and it sounds like Emily and I were both in the same place with respect to that, is that there are so many opportunities out there now for students, which are available and, and readily available, that are online or through their schools to really help bolster their studies, and to make some of the application of math and science really fun. Those afterschool clubs, opportunities especially for girls, to pursue some STEM learning opportunities and activities together, so that they have the chance to be together and be in a supportive environment, so that they are more apt to take risks and feel comfortable in doing that, and to feel comfortable in the idea that they might fail. I think there are so many experiences out there that are available, and I always encourage students to try to go after those, not to mention the, the work that, Emily, you’re doing, in bringing all of that readily available on video and on TV. I think that math can be fun, and math and science and STEM are amazingly fun, and we want students to be able to see that and feel it and touch it.

Host: Emily, let’s circle back on that, the idea that, how to attract, you know, how to attract young girls to STEM and help them to explore it. And of course, as Kris mentioned, you’ve been doing this for quite some time, figuring out the best ways to reach these audiences to get the numbers that you’re getting, 65%, 75% young girls. What is, what is the trick? What are your techniques to excite young girls into pursuing STEM careers?

Emily Calandrelli: Yeah. I mean, I think there’s no trick. I think part of it is that I am a woman myself, and I think that that resonates, and they can relate to maybe me talking about science or technology or whatever it is more so than a traditional guy that you would normally see on these platforms. And I think that, that — it just becomes easier to digest the information when they see someone who looks like them. Some of the other things that I do like to employ, because studies have shown that girls, more often than little boys, appreciate altruism when it comes to deciding their ultimate career path, meaning they prioritize wanting to help others, they prioritize wanting to help the environment, to help the world, and I think that intuitively that makes sense, because as we probably know, there are not all STEM fields have that huge gender gap. STEM fields in the medical industry, where it’s very obvious that you will be working to help others, that has less of a gender gap. These newer majors in environmental science have less of a gender gap. And so I think in some of the other areas of STEM, like aerospace engineering and, Kris, you mentioned computer science and some of these other ones that we do see this enormous gender gap, it would do us a favor to highlight all the ways that one can use that major to help others. In aerospace engineering, I love talking about how space technology makes the world a better place. How we can leverage space technology to help people in need, to help recover after things like natural disasters, or to help bring broadband internet to the world and connect the other half of the planet that doesn’t have internet today. Things like that, I think, are stories that resonate just a little bit louder with little girls than they do little boys.

Host: Very inspiring. Now taking that one step further, Emily, because I think, to me, it’s one thing to, to show that initial interest, you know, and show the value of the altruistic value of a STEM career, and get that initial interest, that spark, that allows them to say, you know what, I’m going to go ahead and do this, much, you know, of course later in their life, like in your case where you were exploring different careers and then ultimately landed on engineering for a variety of different reasons. What do you think is to take that next step from, from the spark of inspiration to something that’s so ingrained in a young woman that they will continue to pursue it even through the challenges, through the ups and downs of studying and, you know, the challenges along the way, to make sure that it’s something that’s core to them so that they continue to pursue it?

Emily Calandrelli: Yeah. I love when I see a lot of these organizations that focus on bringing girls together with common interests, things like Girls Who Code or Black Girls Code, these organizations that allow these younger women to meet each other and create that community. I think that is so incredibly powerful, and it makes these careers a bit more sticky for them, because they can come back to that passion that they found initially by talking to others who are just like them, who are maybe experiencing some of the same challenges that only they understand. And in the aerospace industry especially, there’s this kind of old boys network where opportunities flow from, and promotions often flow from, and just in general insight of the industry flow from, because these people are friends, and that just naturally happens. But women don’t often have that same community, and so when we can nurture that, especially from a young age, I think that can help young girls grow up and pass that threshold from just being passionate about science and engineering to pursuing it as a lifelong career.

Host: So important to show that you’re not alone, that you’re not the only one that’s pursuing this and get a sense, that community. It’s just primal, I think to all of us. Kris, I think this is a good place to plug Introduce a Girl to Engineering Day. I think it’s this idea of community is the perfect place. It is coming up real soon, right?

Kris Brown: Yeah, Introduce a Girl to Engineering Day is February 24^th. And at NASA we, we create a little bit of a campaign around, on social media and on some of our platforms, to help girls see NASA women engineers at work and experience them and experience the tremendously incredible work they do day in and day out. And we just use it as an opportunity to try to reach out, especially to girls in attracting them to the idea of looking into what it might be like to be an engineer, and then also lead them to some very specific learning opportunities that they might want to participate in that NASA offers. So I’m personally really excited about it. Last year we had a really great following, and we’re looking forward to building even further on that this year.

Host: What I like about the having both of you as guests is you both get to interact with people so much. Emily, through your areas, you get to have kids on your show, right, and you get to see their inspiration.

Emily Calandrelli: Mm-hm.

Host: And of course, Kris, actually seeing, you know, when you have these programs, these STEM programs and invite girls you get to, you get to see the inspiration. And I think one of the most rewarding things about being in a position like this, where we get to communicate to people and reach out and do all of these programs, is to, is when we see some spark of inspiration, we see it in someone else, right? Of course we’ve all experienced it, but we see it. I wonder if you each have a moment like that. Emily, we’ll start with you. If you have some student that you’ve worked with or someone you’ve maybe if you were a mentor to someone, and you inspired a career, you inspired a decision, some path that they took, if there’s something that really sticks with you as you look back?

Emily Calandrelli: Yeah. I mean, I’ve worked on a few different TV shows and projects, and I think that the one that I have seen the most impact from is “Emily’s Wonder Lab.” And I think that that is just because, A, it had a larger reach, it was on Netflix, and so it was an international reach, but also because I was nine months pregnant when I filmed the show, and so these kids were watching a nine-month-pregnant lady who didn’t mention at all that she was pregnant. I totally ignored the situation. I just happened to be a wildly pregnant person doing science on TV. And that changed kind of what they expected a scientist to look like, and so I have messages every day, I mean, the show came out a year and a half ago and I still get dozens of messages every day from families who talk about the impact that it’s had on their children, and not just their daughters but also their sons because of course this is changing what their sons expect when they think of a scientist and an engineer as well. And some of the stories will be like, my daughter — you know, my husband is an engineer, but she didn’t talk about science or engineering until she watched your show, because she finally saw someone who looked like her doing science. The past two Halloweens, there were dozens and dozens and dozens of girls that dressed up as me because they wanted to be a scientist for Halloween, and many of them even put like a pillow in their belly because they wanted to be very accurate and very authentic to what a scientist looked like. And that to me is the, I want to work on more projects like that, because when you see the impact that that has, you feel something. It’s hard not to see these messages and not get in your feels about it because it is certainly, it makes me want to continue doing this type of work, because you can see the impact happening in real time.

Host: It is important, right? I mean, you do it, and that you mentioned this whenever you were talking about inspiring girls, that what helps you to help communicate that is, is that true — that, you know, that true sense of passion. Making sure that that is coming forward, not necessarily that presenter style, but that you are putting your own passion into that style, and you have a feeling that it’s helping people but it’s not until, you know, it really becomes true whenever you hear those stories. It has to mean the world.

Emily Calandrelli: Absolutely. Yeah, it really does.

Host: Kris, I wonder if you have a similar story. Lots of STEM programs around NASA; I wonder if you’ve overseen any of them or talked to any of the girls that have been a part of it and have a story that came from some of these programs?

Kris Brown: Yes. I think first off, I think, Emily, your story is so, such a, paints such a vivid picture of how important it is to have powerful role models out there, men or women, and the ability for these young people to see themselves and connect in a really powerful way. I’ve had a whole number of what I characterize as goosebump moments working with students. Working especially with young girls, and underserved and underrepresented students who, like me when I was their age, are limited with respect to what’s available to them, and especially with respect to out-of-school experiences for them to explore STEM. I think that the one example that I would give that is actually not that, because it was with college students, that was incredibly fulfilling for me, is I spoke to a group of college students, men and women, and we had a very lengthy question and answer period that covered all kinds of topics. It was unlimited what they could ask me, so they wanted to know what I found most challenging in my career, what was most exciting, how did I manage people, what was that like, how did I approach work/life balance, what it was like to be a mother working in STEM, very similar to the story Emily just shared as her nine months pregnant self on TV. Afterward, a number of students came up to me to talk to me about how powerful the conversation was for them from a number of different angles. None of them really had anything to do with the technical studies they were doing. It was about life as a, as a STEM practitioner and what my STEM journey was like. But one young woman in particular came up to me, to the stage, and she was in tears, and I thought, oh boy, what did I do? And she told me that sharing, sharing my story and my experiences had literally changed her life in that moment. And that for years, she told her parents that she wanted to be an engineer, and they had always counseled her against it because they viewed engineering careers for women to be just too difficult. And so, at the end of that conversation, she said to me, I have made the decision to switch to engineering, like today, and I’m going to contact my advisor and I’m going to call my parents to let them know that I am going to be an engineer. And for me that was kind of one of my big goosebump moments because it was really evidence of the power of, of a voice merely sharing a story and being out there allowing, helping a student find her way. So, it was very powerful.

Host: Those are certainly the most meaningful to me as well. You know, it’s — I’m glad to have you both on the podcast to share this because I truly hope people are inspired by, by your own stories. I think there’s truly value in it. I’ve had a couple of examples exactly what you’re saying, Kris, where, you know, someone said that they listened to this podcast, or they saw this, you know, they saw something at NASA, and you say, you know, and that’s when I decided to pursue a career at NASA, so I applied for the internship or whatnot, and I was like, that’s why we do what we do. It’s exactly those stories where they, you know, dress up as their hero, who happens to be a nine-month-pregnant scientist, or they change their career on the day, or they apply to NASA. Those are the best stories, I think, just across the board. And I think it’s an effort that, certainly I think all of us agree, needs to continue. I wonder what the goal is, what you’re trying to do, maybe just nudge the world in a certain direction. But Emily, we’ll start with you, and when it comes to all of these pursuits, science communications, trying to inspire young girls, what are your goals? What exactly is the world that you envision, and are trying to build, through some of the things that you’re doing?

Emily Calandrelli: Yeah, I think for me, I am trying to meet people where they’re at and provide education in a medium that works best for them, because everybody learns a little bit differently. Not everybody learns the best in a classroom setting or with a textbook, for example. And so, for me, like my recent adventure has been learning how to do sci[ence]-com[munication] on TikTok, and what that means in terms of how to best present scientific information, especially complex information, in 60 seconds or less. And it’s been really fun. It’s worked out really well, and I’m connecting with especially Gen[eration] Z and the younger generation in a really unique way, and understanding their humor and the way that they like to digest information and the things that they like to learn about. And it’s been a really fun way to get out of my own comfort zone and learn about just a new way to talk about science. And so, for me, I want to continue to push myself to do things like that, to learn new skills and new platforms and ways to talk about science, so that I can keep up with the ways that people like to learn.

Host: Wonderful. Kris, what about you? I’m sure NASA is always doing the same things, right? There are new ways to engage new audiences all the time, and I’m sure NASA is exploring new STEM engagement programs. What are some of the things we’re doing? And same deal, what do you hope for the future?

Kris Brown: Yeah, thanks for that, Gary. We are really committed to the goal of building a diverse future STEM workforce, and I think I said earlier, a workforce that really reflects the overall population that we serve, and at NASA we feel that that’s vital for our future success. I think another thing that we are committed to at NASA that is really powerful is that we are committed to vastly improving an understanding of our world and the universe in which we live, that, that idea of contributing to improving science literacy in our nation so that we can increase an understanding of really many issues that are rooted in science that are vital to the future of our country and the world. And I think for us at NASA, we feel that that’s part, so much part of our mission: communicating with the public and engaging and educating the public and students in what we do in order to accomplish that. So I think for us, we are continually, as you said, we’re looking to always expand our footprint, our digital footprint, and our capacity working with partners, to reach students all across the country and offer them a spectrum of learning opportunities on that continuum of STEM experiences, whether it be looking to attract early, students early on into STEM and getting them interested and excited about science and engineering, but then also moving those students along a continuum of learning in order to sustain them on their pathways. As Emily said, that students all learn differently, and so when we talk about the journey in STEM we’re really talking about individual student pathways. They all have different paths that they take to get to perhaps entering a STEM discipline and entering the STEM field. And so what we’re trying to do at NASA is really provide a diversity of opportunities, and also focus on how we can magnify those opportunities for learning in reaching students who are in underserved and underrepresented communities in STEM, who might approach that learning differently. So, we’re also focused on what we say characterizes broadening student participation, to really look and measure our success in how are we reaching students and what is the — cadre of students, the cohorts that we reach. What are the constituency of those? And are we really adequately reaching a diverse group of students? And so, it’s work that I am just so excited about personally, and my own personal goal is to use my role leading NASA’s educational programs and opportunities in, in having me help be that voice out there, as Emily has talked about, be one of those voices out there, in advocating for the work that we’re all doing to, to build up our educational efforts across the country.

Host: Both of you are so inspirational. There’s so much to pull from this conversation, and I really do hope that there are young girls listening right now that are considering something like a drastic career change, or at least, at the very least, maybe at least exploring an interest in STEM that may have been in them but they’ve never really thought about it too much on until listening to you two. So I want to end with this, and Kris, we’ll start with you. We talked about it a lot, there’s a lot to pull from this podcast, but if you were to leave this episode with a nugget, a nugget of information, something to maybe push a girl who’s listening right now in a direction, what would be the one nugget, a takeaway that you want to leave them with?

Kris Brown: One of my key takeaways when I talk to students is really what I’ll share now, is that the idea that the universe is out there waiting for you. There’s so much out there in terms of possibilities and ways to contribute to, in terms of having a STEM career and making a huge difference and impact in the world. And I would just encourage girls and boys to think about how they might be able to dream big and contemplate work in STEM. And we’re here to support them, and we have opportunities for students to explore, and I’d like to encourage any student that’s out there listening right now, to think big, put on your exploration hat and, get out there and discover what it is you love to do.

Host: I love it. Kris, thank you. Emily, same question to you, some nugget to, to leave our listeners with.

Emily Calandrelli: Yeah. I mean, I think that when you’re young, you sort of imagine that all of the adults have everything figured out, in terms of, like, organization, like everybody has everything figured out and everything’s working well, but also in terms of discovery. Like, I assumed that the scientists had pretty much figured out all the important things. [Laughter] They had answered all of the important questions, and our job as a young person was to just learn about all of the answers that they had found. But that’s not the case: there are still so many questions that don’t have answers, so many mysteries left unsolved, and we need the next generation to be able to help us figure out these answers, because we have a lot of really tough challenges. We’ve mentioned climate change a lot throughout this podcast. That’s one of the ones that doesn’t really have a simple answer and we need smart, thoughtful, empathetic people to help work on these challenges. And so that is the, that’s the prompt that I would give to the next generation, is that, you know, we need you.

Host: It is so important. Kris and Emily, you are both so inspirational. It was my pleasure to have you both on this podcast and learn from you both and pull on your, your different but similar — there was a lot overlap — experiences in your life. And I hope that it serves to inspire someone who’s listening right now, so I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for coming on this podcast.

Emily Calandrelli: Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Kris Brown: Yeah, it’s so great to be with you. Thanks so much.

Host: Hey, thanks for sticking around. I was so inspired talking with Kris Brown and Emily Calandrelli. Both had awesome stories to share. I hope you were inspired and certainly learned something today. Of course, go to NASA.gov/stem to check out all of the great things that we’re doing across the agency, and just a note to reiterate what Kris mentioned, Introduce a Girl to Engineering Day is February 24th. Be sure to check that out on NASA.gov. If you’re interested in podcasts, we’re one of many across the entire agency. If you want to check out our full collection, we’re at NASA.gov/podcasts. You can listen to any of our episodes, in no particular order, and of course, check out the great other shows we have there. If you want to talk to us, we’re on the NASA Johnson Space Center pages of Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Just use the hashtag #AskNASA on your favorite platform to submit an idea for the show, and make sure to mention it’s for us at Houston We Have A Podcast. This episode was recorded on January 27th, 2022. Thanks to Alex Perryman, Pat Ryan, Heidi Lavelle, Belinda Pulido, Ann Marie Demme and Micaela Mongelli. And of course, thanks again to Kris Brown and Emily Calandrelli for taking the time to come on the show. Give us a rating and feedback on whatever platform you’re listening to us on and tell us what you think of our podcast. We’ll be back next week.