Suggested Searches

Go Starliner!

Season 1Episode 205Jul 23, 2021

Bob Dempsey, NASA flight director at the Johnson Space Center, provides an overview of NASA’s Boeing Orbital Flight Test-2, the second uncrewed test flight of the Starliner spacecraft. HWHAP Episode 205.

A birdseye view of Boeing's Starliner spacecraft at the launch pad in Florida.

Go Starliner!

If you’re fascinated by the idea of humans traveling through space and curious about how that all works, you’ve come to the right place.

“Houston We Have a Podcast” is the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center from Houston, Texas, home for NASA’s astronauts and Mission Control Center. Listen to the brightest minds of America’s space agency – astronauts, engineers, scientists and program leaders – discuss exciting topics in engineering, science and technology, sharing their personal stories and expertise on every aspect of human spaceflight. Learn more about how the work being done will help send humans forward to the Moon and on to Mars in the Artemis program.

On Episode 205, Bob Dempsey, NASA flight director at the Johnson Space Center, provides an overview of NASA’s Boeing Orbital Flight Test-2, the second uncrewed test flight of the Starliner spacecraft. This episode was recorded on June 18, 2021.

HWHAP Logo 2021

Transcript

Gary Jordan (Host): Houston, we have a podcast! Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, Episode 205, “Go Starliner!” I’m Gary Jordan, and I’ll be your host today. On this podcast, we bring in the experts, scientists, engineers, astronauts, all to let you know what’s going on in the world of human spaceflight. NASA and Boeing are about to launch the second uncrewed test flight, called Orbital Flight Test 2, or OFT-2, of the Boeing Starliner, a spacecraft that will soon be transporting astronauts to and from the International Space Station. Having multiple spacecraft that have this capability is a critical objective laid out under NASA’s Commercial Crew Program. And this uncrewed test flight will demonstrate the Starliner as another capable vehicle of doing so, alongside the SpaceX Dragon. So, to walk us through this test flight and its objectives is Dr. Robert Dempsey, more commonly known here as Dr. Bob. He is one of the flight directors that will sit in the Boeing flight control room. He’s also the lead Boeing flight director. And he’ll be sitting there for the rendezvous and docking portion of this mission. As an experienced flight director, and author and executive editor of “The International Space Station: Operating an Outpost in the New Frontier,” which goes crazy in depth on space station operations and systems, he paints a verbal picture of what we can expect to see on this mission and why these objectives are critical to get us to the next step, a flight test with a crew of three NASA astronauts on board the Boeing Starliner. So, here’s more on the Starliner and the operations we can expect to see very soon on OFT-2. Let’s get right into it. Enjoy.

[ Music]

Host: Dr. Bob, thanks for coming on Houston We Have a Podcast today.

Bob Dempsey: It is my pleasure to be here.

Host: So, OFT-2 is very close. How are you feeling about this upcoming mission?

Bob Dempsey: It’s, it’s always an interesting time when you’re about six weeks out from launch, because you’ve got a lot of energy getting ready. There’s always a lot of last-minute things, but the team and everything is really coming together. So, we’re excited because we think we’re all set and going to be ready to launch at the end of next month.

Host: You have a lot of experience getting you to prepare for this moment. You’re the lead flight director for Boeing. Tell me about some of your experience that helped you to get you where you are today, starting with NASA.

Bob Dempsey: Well, I’m a little bit different than your average flight director, because I’m actually an astronomer.

Host: Cool.

Bob Dempsey: And I actually worked up at the Hubble Space Telescope Institute for a number of years before I came down here. And I think that gave me a very, kind of a unique perspective on approaching problems. I’m a very data-oriented person. I’m not as engineering-focused as some people. But I came down here in 1997, and I was working in what was called the ODIN (onboard data interfaces and networks) group, or the Command and Data Handling group, for the International Space Station. And I did that for a number of years. And then I transferred over to the communications group before I was selected as a flight director. And then as a flight director, I worked on a number of projects, especially with the European Space Agency and the Russians. So, I have a lot of experience in working kind of integrated projects. And I mention the, the European Space Agency in particular because when NASA was partnering with them in the beginning, you know, they have a different approach than we traditionally did. And with the Boeing project, I’ve had to bring some of the same sort of things where we’ve looked at the way we’ve traditionally done things and, and considered alternate ways to do things.

Host: Hmm. OK. And you, you had some experience doing things a little bit more traditionally, because you are flight director for the International Space Station Program, is that correct?

Bob Dempsey: That’s correct.

Host: OK.

Bob Dempsey: And I did a number of shuttle missions as lead and as a supporting flight director. I’ve led some spacewalks. I’ve done some Soyuz mission docking and undocking. So, all the various missions that we have done over the years.

Host: Very cool. All right, so I want to get into how that experience helped you to work, start working with Boeing and building this, these procedures, working with the spacecraft from the ground up. Right? But first, I want to understand more about the spacecraft. What is the Boeing Starliner?

Bob Dempsey: OK, it’s a, a capsule-type spacecraft. And I know sometimes people go, “oh, we had the beautiful shuttle. Why are we going back to 1960s technology?” And the thing is, unless you’re trying to land like a plane with a big payload in your back, a capsule is the most efficient thing. And that’s why all the companies now doing cargo and crew vehicles are focusing on capsules. But it’s a capsule with a small crew module that can hold up to five astronauts. And then there’s a service module that provides propulsion and various type of control functions. The Boeing project, you know, is a little bit different than some other companies’ in that they build the spacecraft, they partner with United Launch Alliance to launch the spacecraft, and then they partnered with us, NASA, to fly and operate the spacecraft. So, they will build it. United Launch Alliance will stack it and launch it. We will fly it to the space station. It’ll dock with the crew, they will transfer over and then when their mission is done they would come back nominally. We would fly it down to the Earth—actually the crew flies it, it’s an autonomous vehicle and the ground’s there for contingency—and then Boeing would recover it and start the process all over again.

Host: Got it. OK. How does the Starliner differ, let’s say from shuttle, right? That’s the traditional, that’s the U.S. vehicle that we’ve worked with in the past in terms of how the operations worked, in terms of the functionality. What is this new generation spacecraft, how is it different from, from legacy spacecraft?

Bob Dempsey: Yeah, there’s a couple key differences. Since the vehicle was required to really only have a few simple functions—go to the space station, you know, deliver a crew to the space station, serve as an emergency lifeboat on the space station if the crew has to evacuate for some reason, then bring them home—it doesn’t need to have some of the functionality that the space shuttle had. For example, it doesn’t need to carry a large cargo bay. It doesn’t need to be on orbit, if you recall, some of the shuttle missions were, you know, up to two weeks to do science or to deliver stuff to the International Space Station, so it really has a shorter time to be on orbit. So, it can only launch and kind of take up to a couple days to get to the space station. Nominally, it would be there in 24 hours or less, but if there was problems, it could, it could take a couple days. And then when it comes home, it’s relatively straightforward. So, it doesn’t have quite the same capabilities. And then the last thing that I would mention as a key difference is NASA required the vehicle to be autonomous. And what that means is, technically, the crew could get in, you launch it, and it does its entire mission without anyone touching a button or pushing a command down in mission control. The reality is, you know, you still have some interaction on it, but that’s the design preference.

Host: OK, I see. Now, we have a little bit of experience with flying this spacecraft. This, what we’re talking about today is Orbital Flight Test number 2. There was Orbital Flight Test number 1. Now, tell me about what happened for that one?

Bob Dempsey: Yes, that occurred in December of 2019. And it was supposed to be the, you know, the uncrewed checkout mission getting ready for the crewed flight test, or CFT, later on. Unfortunately, there was a software problem that occurred very early in the mission. And basically, what that problem was is, so I think everyone is familiar with the famous countdown of five, four, three, two…when we get to zero, we actually start counting up. And this is the mission elapsed time. And that’s a clock that is just monitoring the whole mission, but the autonomous software for OFT-1 was designed that, at about 8 1/2 minutes, to perform a critical burn. If this burn did not occur, basically the vehicle would be on a parabolic journey, and it would go up, and then come right back down, which is not what you want to do. The orbit insertion burn basically puts it in orbit. Because of a software glitch, this clock actually started counting about a day before the actual launch.

Host: Oh.

Bob Dempsey: So, at about 8 1/2 minutes into the mission, when we were expecting the burn, the software said, well, it’s about a day and a half now, I’m not planning to do any burns. So, the ground control team pretty quickly realized that the burn was not executing. And we began to uplink manual commands that we had actually practiced as a contingency to perform that burn. Unfortunately, by the time the burn executed, the vehicle had come down enough that for it to complete that burn and stay on orbit safely, it had used too much fuel, too much propellant, to actually go to the International Space Station, which was one of the objectives. So, after that, we did some checkouts, made sure the vehicle was still safe, and then we came home about 48 hours after launch, which was early.

Host: OK. Now, that was the first test. And, of course, one of the objectives was to get to the International Space Station. But there might have been some lessons that we learned from that first flight and that we can apply and say that validated these parts of the spacecraft, or the, you know, as part of the uncrewed flight test, we still have some more, we want to learn on OFT-2. But what did we learn from OFT-1?

Bob Dempsey: You’re absolutely correct. I mean, obviously the most basic lesson we learned was to look at that autonomous software and make sure there was no ties to a clock or something else that could go wrong. We also scrub through the software and said, hey, if communications with the ground is required, and you have a communications problem, you don’t want to have that linkage, because then the operation won’t execute. So, we learned some things like that to make it better. There was actually a lot of software review to make sure that we could be a little more robust and strong. We also learned that the vehicle was pretty robust. The propulsion system got quite a workout by that off-nominal burn that I mentioned. And at first we were a little bit worried about it, but in hindsight, after we examined the data, it did, it did pretty well, which gives us a lot of confidence that it will, it will do well for the crewed missions. And there was some radio links, like with the International Space Station, for example, one of the things you’ll be hearing about is, is the space to space link. And that is a key link between the two vehicles. Its primary function is that if the ISS crew saw something happening that did not look safe during the rendezvous, they can execute a command and say, go away, Starliner. On the OFT-1 mission we were able to establish that link hundreds of kilometers apart, much farther away than we thought.

Host: Wow.

Bob Dempsey: So, that gives us confidence that, for example, that radio link may work much better than we had kind of anticipated, based on the design.

Host: Very good. OK. Now, there’s some stuff we obviously want to learn on OFT-2. So, let’s get into the mission. Dr. Bob, walk us through the OFT-2 mission, starting with countdown.

Bob Dempsey: OK, the vehicle will roll out a little bit before the launch to the pad. It’s not like the space shuttle where people might remember that it might go out weeks, in fact, and then sit on the pad. This will be integrated in what’s called the Vertical Integration Facility by United Launch Alliance, and then rolled out about a day or two, depending on the timing, before the launch. It may actually be a little bit earlier than that in this case because they, they have some spare time. The vehicle is activated and actually powered up by the Boeing team in Florida. And then a little before launch, our team will come into mission control here in Houston and monitor that power up in the systems and get ready. And then, you know, several hours before launch, we actually become an active partner in the countdown. And then a few hours before launch, we kind of take over, and we’re, we’re prime. And then the vehicle will launch. It’s about, you know, an about 11, 12-minute, two-stage operation to get into orbit. We will then perform that orbit insertion burn. And very quickly, we get into a very busy timeline. The spacecraft will do what we call demonstrations objectives. And what that is, is, for example, before we get close to the space station, we want to make sure that if the vehicle or the ground or the ISS crew detects something is wrong, that an abort can be issued, and the vehicle will back away and get safely away from the space station. Now, you don’t want to test that when you’re already 50 meters away from the space station. So, the first thing we do on orbit is test that. We pretend to point to the space station. We issue an abort, make sure it does all the appropriate burns. So, we get immediately into demonstrating the capabilities of the hardware and software. The VESTA, (Vision-based, Electro-Optical Sensor Tracking Assembly) and I can’t remember off the top of my head what that acronym stands for, it’s a multiply-embedded one, I think…it’s a visual-based system that the Starliner has. It has a laser; it has visual cameras and an infrared camera on it, and two of each of those. And we’ll also start checking that out very quickly to make sure that it’s, it’s working properly in orbit and getting ready for the rendezvous phase. And one other thing that’s new on OFT-2 that wasn’t available on OFT-1, and was actually designed for the crewed missions, is an entry cover. This is a cover that protects the NASA Docking System, or the NDS system, that’s going to be used to mate the two vehicles. And just to make sure it doesn’t get damaged from heat, from either the launch or the entry, there’s this little cover. So, the other thing we’ll also be doing is opening this cover right away so that the NDS and the VESTA system is all ready to begin to operate. We’ll also check out that docking system.

Host: Cool.

Bob Dempsey: Now, the docking will be, depending on which launch attempt, about 24 to 26 hours after we launch. So, about six hours before that docking time we begin what we call proximity operations. And this is when we really start using that VESTA data to look at the space station and say, where are you, space station? And, of course, the Starliner itself has basically GPS (Global Positioning System) units, kind of like our phones do, and say, well, I know where I am, and now I know where you are, and the software onboard will calculate how to get from point A to B so that it docks to that space station. So, we then begin that whole process of a rendezvous profile that takes several hours. And we are still testing those VESTA sensors. We are making sure, because they have different modes that they work in, like, for example, one of the modes is where it can see the outline of the space station. And another mode is where it can look at individual features and say, I see that handrail. And it uses those different ways to navigate, and we’ll be checking those out as we get closer and closer. At about 200 meters we will execute what we call the hold and retreat demo. And, again, it’s to verify that the ISS crew can hit the hold button and stop the vehicle, and the vehicle can also retreat if anyone says, we need to get away. And after we verify that that’s working, we will then come in to about ten meters. At ten meters, we activate the docking system, check everything out for one last time, and then we come into dock. Now, we’re not going to immediately enter the vehicle after we dock, because we will be docking late in the space station’s crew day. So, we’ll just get hard-mated, make sure everything’s good, and then the next day my team will come in again, a little bit less than a day after docking, and we will open up the hatches and ingress, and we’ll transfer some cargo, do some basic checkouts with the spacecraft. And then, very quickly we’re going to be coming home. If we launch on July 30th or the 31st, our planned undocking is like August 5th.

Host: Wow.

Bob Dempsey: So, we’ll just be there a few days. We have to recharge the batteries that we’ve used to get there. And we’ll begin like powering up the vehicle and closing the hatch about 48 hours before we undock. And then when we undock, we will come down and it’s fairly quick, about four hours to separate and reenter. And then we will be landing at one of two landing sites out in the southwest of the United States. And some of those things, obviously, like the launch and the entry and landing, went very well on OFT-1.

Host: Cool. And this is, this vehicle lands on land. So, that’s, it has the capability to do that. How does that work?

Bob Dempsey: That’s correct. Its, its regular planned way of coming down is to land on land. And it has these airbags that, it’s using parachutes, obviously, to slow itself down, but when it gets close to the Earth, it will eject, there’s a heat shield, of course, also to keep it intact as it comes through the Earth’s atmosphere with the high temperatures, and then these airbags will inflate, and it will just basically settle down on a desert out there. Now, if there is a problem, we can land in the water, but that’s not really desired because, I mean, technically you can land anywhere in the world in the water and there’s a lot of it, but you’d rather have it right where you’ve got your landing team sitting there, so that they can go over and make sure everything is OK and then begin the process of preparing it for the next mission.

Host: Sweet. So, all of these different, when you went through the profile, you mentioned a couple of demonstrations. A lot of checkouts of this VESTA, this visual, visual navigation — hardware. You talked about some of the space to space commanding, the ability of the crew being able to hold retreats, that sort of thing. Are these the primary objectives that we’re trying to get across to verify Starliner, you are ready to carry crew?

Bob Dempsey: You are absolutely correct —

Host: Cool.

Bob Dempsey: — because, you know, obviously we’ve got to verify that we can rendezvous and dock to that International Space Station —

Host: Very important.

Bob Dempsey: — because, otherwise, we’re not going to get crews to and from there.

Host:[Laughter] Very cool. OK, so how did you practice for all of this, right? So, we’ve been, I’ve been taking part in some of the simulations. But what are the teams doing to get together and say, let’s practice this, let’s make sure that we, the teams, the flight control teams, are ready for this mission?

Bob Dempsey: That’s a very good question. And it starts with, the most important part of our training actually starts with laying awake at night in bed wondering what do we have to do and how to make this work. And then once we kind of figure out it, we develop procedures, and what we call Con Ops, which are Concepts of Operations, like how we’re going to do that. And then we go into a simulation, as you mentioned, where there is a, basically a computer that is mimicking the spacecraft. And it sends telemetry, or data, to the flight controllers in mission control, and for all practical purposes we can’t tell whether it’s a real spacecraft or a simulation. And what they will do is, they will fail, for example, a computer, or one part of the electrical system, or one part of the life support system, or a thruster. And the team, we will then look at it and go, OK, well, how does that affect the rest of the mission? Are we still go to continue to rendezvous and dock, or do we have an emergency where, if the crew was here, we would have to get on the ground right away? And we just practice that over and over. And those Con Ops that I mentioned earlier, we stress them out. Did they work in the sim[ulation] as well as we thought they were beforehand? And so, we revise them. And we go, OK, here’s something we learned in that simulation, and one of the biggest things we’ve learned is autonomous software is a lot different than a crew. And it changes how you think about problems. And then we go into the next sim and we do that again and see how well it works. And we just do that over and over until we’re ready to fly.

Host: Very cool. So, some of these Con Ops, some of these contingency operations, what, you, you mentioned the thrusters, for example. You said they performed on the OFT-1 whenever we had to execute that manual burn when it did not execute an orbital insertion burn, they performed better than expected. So, take us through some of the contingency operations. If something were to happen, like in these simulations that you’re saying, what are the capabilities of Starliner to keep the crew and the vehicle and the International Space Station, all of these different components, keep everyone safe? What are the capabilities of Starliner?

Bob Dempsey: Well, a lot of the systems are designed to be redundant. And it may even, may have more than one level of redundancy. So, for example, if a thruster were to just fail, we’ve got plenty of other thrusters that we would basically take over that operation and continue. Where it becomes a little more tricky is, let’s say you have a thruster fail, and then you have a computer or a computer processor that controls some of the thrusters, also have a problem. That’s where the flight control team has to look at those two failures together and go, OK, do we still have the capabilities that we need to either get to the space station or get the crew home?

Host: Got it. OK. Now, this is all for getting prepared for crew. So, we’re going to execute this mission, we’re going to do an uncrewed mission to the International Space Station. Not going to stay there very long. Going to come back. Really, what we’re gearing up for is the crewed test flight. So, what’s that one?

Bob Dempsey: The crewed flight test, or CFT, will be the next mission after this one. Assuming everything goes smoothly, but I think that’s likely. And that’s where we have some astronauts that will be onboard. And, you know, these are, it’s still a test mission, so there will be objectives on it. For example, the astronauts will take control of the vehicle and, and fly it manually, just to make sure that if they had to in the event of an emergency, they could do it. So, it’s still a test flight. But it’s the second step that if it goes well, basically at that point we’ve proven all the capabilities of the spacecraft, that it should be able to meet the requirements, and, you know, take the astronauts safely to and from the space station. At that point, then we can start what we call our regular increment mission support. And that’s, you know, where, you know, we’re routinely taking astronauts up for six month stays.

Host: Got it. So, in terms of the operations, we mentioned Mission Control Houston, you said especially, even on the launch countdown, Houston’s taken over pretty early. But when you say Houston, there is the Mission Control Center that has multiple mission control rooms. And there’s Starliner operations, and then, of course, there’s International Space Station operations. So, how are the teams working together to execute these missions?

Bob Dempsey: That’s a really good question. In, in many ways, it’s, you know, the same sort of things that we’re doing, because the, it’s all flight operations division, FOD (Flight Operations Directorate), as we are called. We’re using the same systems that the space station team are using, the same computer consoles, the same infrastructure. And we train together. So, we have a lot of commonality there. So, we are literally in a control room down the hall from the International Space Station team. So, we are coordinating directly with them. They are in charge of the space station, of course, and the ultimate for safety for the entire operation. So, we will, in many ways, launch and fly like we did the space shuttle, but it’s a little different than that, we’re operating a private company’s vehicle.

Host: Now, what’s really cool is that this is, this is gearing up for a very interesting time in human spaceflight. We have the SpaceX Dragon flying crews. We’re going to have the Boeing Starliner flying crews, that’s what this mission is about, is getting that ready to do so, regular crew transportation. We’re already starting to train for Artemis missions. We’re going to have private astronaut missions. What excites you about this, this time coming up? There’s just a lot of activity. Mission Control Houston is going to be very busy with a lot of different things going on. What excites you?

Bob Dempsey: It is very exciting. And it’s funny, you know, sometimes people will like, see us as in competition with SpaceX. They’re another provider, but I don’t see it as competition. We’re all trying to do the same thing of, ultimately, explore space and do science in, in orbit. But we see the exciting times that are going on. For example, we’ve had challenges right now, because mission control is getting busy.

Host: Yeah.

Bob Dempsey: There’s been times we wanted to do a simulation and the Artemis team needed to do a simulation the same day. So, we have to, you know, juggle the schedule a little bit. So, there’s a lot going on. You know, when I was mainly focused as a flight director on the space station, we were worried that, you know, when the assembly was complete and the astronauts are up there just doing science, that things would get kind of boring. And it’s far from that. You know, we’ve got cargo vehicles coming and going from the space station all the time. Just this week, we were trying to install a new solar array. So, we’re always still pushing the envelope, so to speak, and challenging it. So, there’s a lot going on. And then when you factor in all the Moon program stuff, the human lander systems that are, you know, moving very quickly to try and land humans on the Moon again in a few years, and, and my colleagues—you know, that’s what’s really neat about this time, and I think very unique—I can walk down the hallway and talk to someone who’s working on the Artemis missions, and they’re asking us, “OK, how did you deal with this particular problem in terms of a rocket or autonomous vehicle operations?” because that’s what we’ve been doing for the last few years. And then the human lander system guys will come talk to us and say, “hey, look, we’re, we’re getting into autonomous vehicles. Tell us what you’ve learned?” And we’ll learn some stuff from them. So, it’s like, you know, all these different projects are going on. And it’s just an amazing time.

Host: Wow. So, what’s next for you? You’re the, you’re working with the Boeing teams, you’re going to be taking part as a flight director in the OFT-2 mission. What are you looking forward to doing?

Bob Dempsey: Well, right now, my plan is to continue on with the crewed flight tests.

Host: Oh, OK.

Bob Dempsey: And then, I have been doing a little work recently in the human lander systems, and would love to kind of maybe take a little break from the, the crewed vehicles and kind of look at that stuff for a while.

Host: There you go. So, yeah. Building up a new era of transportation to low-Earth orbit. Now you’re going to be focusing on the Moon. That’s pretty special. I bet, I’m thinking of a lot of, a lot of people from early Apollo days that, you know, we, we all look up to, you know, the, Gene Kranz and folks like that, all of these Apollo directors, they were, they were instrumental in getting humans to the Moon. Now, you are being a part of that. You’re building up an infrastructure in low-Earth orbit, and now you’re, you’re helping out with this new era of returning to the Moon. That’s got to feel pretty good.

Bob Dempsey: It does. And I don’t mean to sound trite in this, but, you know, it is part of my dream. You know, I literally, when I was six years old watching the Moon landings, I said, “I want to go do that.” And my family will attest to you that I started saying that at six and I never changed and wavered. And, you know, I did study astronomy, so, you know, I love that part of science. And to me, going back to the Moon is a great way to kind of follow. I don’t know if you know this, but my flight director call sign is Galileo. And, you know, that is definitely in my core. So, going back and exploring the Moon would be the ultimate part of the dream.

Host: Very cool. Well, Dr. Bob, thank you so much for coming on Houston We Have a Podcast, and telling us all about the Boeing Starliner, this upcoming mission, and there’s a lot to look forward to, just within the next couple of years. So, appreciate your time.

Bob Dempsey: My pleasure. And I’d be happy to come back after the mission and talk further about it.

Host: Let’s do it!

Bob Dempsey: Thank you.

[ Music]

Host: Hey, thanks for sticking around. I really enjoyed this conversation with Dr. Bob today. And I learned a lot about the OFT-2 mission. I hope you did, too. Check NASA.gov for the latest on the launch of OFT-2 where you can watch all the activities that are going to be happening in Florida very soon, launching this uncrewed test flight. We are one of many NASA podcasts across the entire agency. You can check them all out at NASA.gov/podcasts. That’s where we are. And you can click on us and follow us in various different platforms. We’re also on the Johnson Space Center pages of Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. If you’d like to ask us a question or submit an idea, use the hashtag NASA on — hashtag #AskNASA, on your favorite platform, and just make sure to mention it’s for Houston We Have a Podcast. This episode was recorded on June 18th, 2021. Thanks to Alex Perryman, Pat Ryan, Norah Moran, Belinda Pulido, Jennifer Hernandez, and the Boeing teams for their coordination. And, of course, thanks again to Dr. Bob Dempsey for taking the time to come on the show. Give us a rating and feedback on whatever platform you’re listening to us on and tell us what you think of our podcast. We’ll be back next week.