A conversation with Komal Sadhwani, an attorney at NASA’s Ames Research Center in Silicon Valley.

Transcript

Matthew Buffington: You’re listening to NASA in Silicon Valley episode 97. This week our guest is Komal Sadhwani, an attorney here at NASA Ames. Komal specializes in commercial law, but in reality, ends up doing a large mix of things that need a lawyer’s point of view.

We discuss terrestrial law, or law that occurs on Earth for the benefit of space exploration. We also talk about her work throughout NASA that includes HR, finance, procurement and, of course, being a part of NASA in Silicon Valley, working on partnerships with both large tech companies and even startups.

Before I spoil the whole episode, let’s jump right in there with Komal Sadhwani.

Music

Host (Matthew Buffington): We always start this off the same way, Komal. Tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you join NASA? How did you end up in Silicon Valley?

Komal Sadhwani: I’m from Guam originally.

Host: Okay. That’s a first.

Komal Sadhwani: Yes.

Host: That is a first of the NASA in Silicon Valley Podcast.

Komal Sadhwani: So, I went to college in New York. I was the kid who wanted to be as far away from home as possible. And concluded that you could only go halfway around the world before you start coming back. So, I went from Guam to New York. And then I just started making my way back west. And eventually – after I graduated law school – I knew I wanted to come out to California to be closer to home. So, working my way back.

Host: A shorter of a flight, I guess?

Komal Sadhwani: That’s correct. Exactly. Exactly. And I applied for a job post that was on a job posting list of some sort. And I threw in a resume. And I put a local California address, so I looked like I was local. Told my cousin, “You’ll get a rejection letter someday. It’s from NASA. Don’t be surprised.” And within a couple of weeks, I was interviewed. And within a couple of weeks, I was hired. I’m told it’s the quickest hiring they’ve ever done at NASA.

Host: Really? I’m trying to imagine, though, while you’re going through law school – because I hear it’s a fun time. As you’re going through the stress and all of that of law school, did you have it in your head of like, “One day, I’m going to be a lawyer for NASA”?

Komal Sadhwani: No idea. I had no idea that Ames even existed when I applied. First time I’d ever heard of it. I really had thought that I would go the law firm route or work for a company. I never thought to work for the government. I was never part of the public interest law or government folks. I never took any of those classes. I just thought it was a crap shoot. Threw it in.

Host: Really?

Komal Sadhwani: Yeah.

Host: So, it’s just a matter of you know you want to live in California. Had you already decided on the Bay Area at that point? Or were you – ?

Komal Sadhwani: No. Actually, that’s why I was looking all over California, but was open to any area. And it was post-9/11, so jobs were scarce anyway. And so, I had to try everything to get a job. When I got the job, I thought I’d be here for a couple of years.

Host: Just try it out. Figure it out.

Komal Sadhwani: Try it out. See what – find a job after that. I had no idea where I’d be working, who I’d be working with, what projects I’d be doing. I just knew I had a job. And I was excited.

Host: And so, you think about it. Every company, organization, entity has lawyers. For the most part, it’s like – because there is the corporate law. There’s businesses. People have their own firms or whatnot. So, imagining being a lawyer for NASA, what does that entail? What are the kinds of things – ? I’d imagine that they’re just relating to space law, or international law, or – there’s whole field in this. So how does this relate to working at NASA?

Komal Sadhwani: When people ask me what I do, I normally tell them I practice “in-the-door law.” Whatever comes in my door, that’s the kind of law I’m practicing today. There is a group of people who work on international law and space law at NASA Headquarters. And they work on things related to the United Nations, the treaties that we have with other countries on the peaceful uses of outer space, and things like that. What we practice here at Ames is mostly what I call terrestrial law – law that occurs on Earth for the benefit of space. It’s very typical of what you would see in-house at a company. Where there’s a lot of contracts and transactional work. And we do a lot of work with folks who do safety, environmental work. We advise groups such as the CFO [Chief Financial Officer], HR, our procurement office –

Host: You keep people out of trouble.

Komal Sadhwani: our public affairs office sometimes.

Host: Yes, I am familiar.

Komal Sadhwani: As needed. As needed. But basically, we kind of do a full range of legal services for any program and project at the center. We support all the institutes, all the contracting work for all the different projects, the small satellites group for whatever they might need.

Host: It seems like it’s a huge range of different topics and things. Does it for the most part deal in the partnerships kind of stuff? Or is it just a whole mix?

Komal Sadhwani: It is a whole mix. And different folks in our office do different things. I do a lot of the partnerships work.

Host: Okay. Which is huge. Especially in Silicon Valley. We have all these companies. We have all these things. And most people would like to do stuff with NASA. So, it’s like you have to make sure when you’re working with the federal government that everything’s on the up and up.

Komal Sadhwani: Yeah. And NASA wants to do work with all these companies as well.

Host: Absolutely.

Komal Sadhwani: I mean, there’s a shift in things being more traditional government with government employees. There are contractors. There are partnerships. There are collaborations. There’s a movement from traditional space to commercial space – or some people call it “new space.” And all of that is governed by all the different deals we do with all the different companies who are interested in that. And there are lots of areas in what NASA does. Either from life sciences, or computing, or any of those areas where there are parties interested in working with NASA and vice versa. We’re interested in getting those ideas, and concepts, and technologies infused into what we do as well.

Host: And if you think about it, even moving into commercial space, this isn’t our first rodeo. The first A in NASA is “aeronautics.” And that is the story of aeronautics. Where at first, it was for the most part air mail, the military. It was heavily government-funded. Moved into public private partnerships like Pan America. And eventually, now it’s a fully-fledged aeronautics industry – private companies. But we still do research. And help them out.

Komal Sadhwani: Correct.

Host: So, I’m imagining it’s a similar path for space.

Komal Sadhwani: There are certainly parallels. I mean, if you look at the history of the commercialization of aeronautics, I guess, the timeframe is very different, right? That was a huge – a long period of time from the first flight to air traffic management, for example.

Host: Yeah, really. From the Wright Brothers until now. It’s a lot of significant changes.

Komal Sadhwani: Exactly. Lots has changed.

Host: A lot has changed.

Komal Sadhwani: And there are, you know, there’s an entire agency that deals with that now. Where NASA’s not even really that much involved. But certainly, a lot of the founding technologies for aeronautics happened here at Ames. I think the timeframe for commercial space is a little shorter. I think things are happening quicker. Maybe we’ve learned since the past.

Host: We’ve learned to be more efficient.

Komal Sadhwani: But there’s also a driver behind it. I think commercial industry is interested in mobilizing quicker.

Host: And so, how does that play into your world? Because I think of – for most companies, you tend to think, “Oh, I want to buy a thing. I want to do something. I’m going to work with this group. Yay, I’m a private company. I can do what I want.” When you’re the federal government, there’s a whole bunch of extra steps that move on top of it. I kind of remind people, every piece of red tape that people complain about typically came from some legislation that was formed. We’re not just making this up on our own. But you have a lot of the job of trying to make sure that we are following the law. We’re following what Congress has said that we can and cannot do.

Komal Sadhwani: Exactly. Because we cannot operate as a commercial company. There are requirements. There are ways in which we can spend our money. Things we can’t do. And most of the times, it’s my job to explain to people who work here –

Host: To very energetic individuals.

Komal Sadhwani: – people who really want to make things work why we cannot do certain things. And the challenge then is how can we do what we want to do and make it happen?

Host: Get to yes. And make it legal.

Komal Sadhwani: And make it legal. And sometimes, it means we have to go get permission from OMB [Office of Management and Budget]. Sometimes it means we have to change the law. There’s folks who have done that. And there are also very creative folks who looked at, “How do we use our agreements authority? How do we use our contracting authority to meld it together, to make it work for building and supporting a commercial space industry?” And sometimes that means we define the requirements of a contract in a very creative way. Sometimes that means we use our flexibility in certain agreement types to do it a certain way.

And do it in a way that keeps stakeholders aware of what we’re doing. And making sure that you address all the potential stumbling blocks along the way. And it’s not the most exciting process. But it is a process. And it’s there. And it enables a lot of these –

Host: And we’re not going to get far without it.

Komal Sadhwani: Well, we don’t have a choice. You’re not going to get anywhere without it. You have to be aware of what stumbling blocks exist. And it’s not ones that – as I promise people – it’s not ones I’ve created. They are ones that exist.

Host: Well, I always say there’s a difference of being a problem identifier and a problem solver. And sometimes it’s –

Komal Sadhwani: And you can do both.

Host: You can identify it. But then that’s how you find that solution of like, “Okay. Maybe we can get to yes and address all your interests and concerns. But through a different route or something that was made for one thing or another.”

Komal Sadhwani: Finding that unique solution, or finding that opportunity, or finding a different path is something that we oftentimes work on with folks all across the center and across the agency.

Host: And you mentioned partnerships as a thing that you’ve been working on. I always hear people – relating to the Space Act Agreement. I’m guessing – is that a big thing in your world? And I guess maybe for folks who are not aware, what is a Space Act Agreement? Where does that come from? What is that?

Komal Sadhwani: Sure. So most of the government has some sort of contracting authority. Where we get to purchase goods and services to enable our ability to meet our mission needs. NASA is a unique agency – and there are other agencies who have this other transaction authority written into the organic act that founded NASA – that says that NASA can do other things to advance its mission. And NASA’s created a policy around that legal authority and how we do business with entities that are not the traditional purchasing of goods and services to support our mission. So, for example, if you need to buy a computer today, you know who to call. And they have a contract order. And you get that computer to do your job.

Host: There’s a way that big NASA has decided, “We’re going to buy computers in this way for efficiency’s sake and following the right way.”

Komal Sadhwani: Right. So, you know how to buy a computer if you needed one. However, if you met with someone in a startup who says, “Well, I have this new way of calibrating this one instrument that you may need for a Moon mission,” there’s no real product there to buy.

Host: It doesn’t exist.

Komal Sadhwani: There’s nothing really to do in terms of making that phone call to buy something. But you may want to talk to them further. They may not want to have you share that information publicly. There may be certain parameters for how we make this deal happen. And that’s the part we write down in an agreement which we call a Space Act Agreement. And there’s policy behind it and things like that. And there’s vastly different ways to engage in cooperative and collaborative activities with various industries. And that’s one of the ways in which we do it.

Host: I’ve even heard of some of the Space Act Agreements – have talked about them in ways of like, “Here’s a reimbursable thing where we give you this. You pay us back for that.” But there’s a lot of them that don’t require any – there’s no money exchanged whatsoever. It’s purely just knowledge. And it’s just having it in a way that’s mutually beneficial, I suppose.

Komal Sadhwani: There are two types. There are the non-reimbursable types where we work with folks – both commercial industries, other government agencies, state and local government – to work together in areas of mutual interest. So, if one of the cities is interested in studying one of their local facilities in waste management, for example, and we have some technology that would be helpful, folks can do that.

Then we have certain unique facilities here including the wind tunnels, the arc jets. We have folks with unique skills in thermal protection systems.

And there are companies out there who are interested in utilizing our goods and services to test their products for commercial use and whatnot. So, they’re able to pay NASA to get those services to advance their business. And we offer that because there are very few of those facilities around. And some of our folks here are the best and brightest at what they do. They do pay NASA actual costs for doing it. And it’s one way where we get to manage our facilities and keep them from being down and not being fully utilized.

Host: Yeah. If we’re not using it for our stuff, then it makes sense to open it up so that other people can use it.

And so, you’d mentioned partnerships as a thing that you’re working on. I’m guessing there’s a lot more that the office does. What are some of the other portfolios? What are things that – what’s that range of – ? Tell us about your world.

Komal Sadhwani: So, my world doesn’t involve everything. But I have many colleagues who work in all these areas. And like I said, it’s largely an in-the-door practice. I found myself doing bankruptcy litigation, privacy litigation. I’ve found myself working with the OCFO in doing costing models for reimbursable agreements. We’ve worked with folks in the environmental office, given various environmental issues we have at this facility. And when I say, “I,” I’ve done some of it. But there’s a person –

Host: It takes a village.

Komal Sadhwani: There is a person who is specialist in environmental issues. There is a person who is a specialist in HR and labor issues. There’s someone who is in charge of procurement. And three or four of us work procurement. We have three patent attorneys.

Host: Oh, really?

Komal Sadhwani: Maybe four. We have four patent attorneys who address issues of data rights, and proprietary data from companies, and licensing technologies, and reporting of technologies under contracts. We have someone who does leasing. We have a NASA Research Park here. And we have large tenants here.

Komal Sadhwani: So, we have a real estate attorney who does a lot of that work.

Host: And that’s an interesting mix. Because you don’t really see that at most NASA centers. We have this big chunk of land. It’s like a mix of startups. It’s tech companies. It’s really large tech companies. It’s other federal agencies, universities. There’s this whole mix right next door to NASA Ames where a whole group of people rent space, basically.

Komal Sadhwani: NASA inherited a lot of this property from the Navy when the naval air base here closed.

Host: Yeah. It was the Moffett Federal Airfield. And then eventually, it was the Navy. And the –

Komal Sadhwani: Yeah. There’s a history behind that.

Host: Well, there’s a whole podcast episode we did with Jack Boyd –

Komal Sadhwani: Oh, excellent. He’ll tell you all that.

Host: – where we went through all of the different transitions and moving.

Komal Sadhwani: So, we inherited all this property, but we didn’t need all of it. And so, through various requests for legislation and requesting the authority to lease out the property to maximize its utility, the NASA Research Park was created. And various folks worked together to make it happen, so to speak. And NASA got leasing authority from Congress to be able to lease out space to create the NASA Research Park. And we’ve been doing that successfully for about 13, 14 years now.

Host: It’s interesting. It’s almost like an incubator of sorts. All space- and NASA-related, but on Moffett Field in the middle of Silicon Valley. All of these different groups coming together working in space.

Komal Sadhwani: That was sort of the vision. That was the vision. To get smart people together working in different disciplines. And the theory is that would really disrupt various areas of technology and create new things. And there have been a lot of success stories here coming through as incubators or startups who have then blossomed into huge companies.

Host: Oh, nice.

Komal Sadhwani: And many of them actually do work with the space program. And some of them have products that they’ve contributed to station. And all it started out with was a lease.

Host: It started off with somebody trying to find a place to put their company.

Komal Sadhwani: A place to put their office. Yes.

Host: Yes. They needed a place to sit. But it’s also a cool thing. Because when you have different groups around each other – whether you’re sharing a building, or your next door going to the Space Bar to get lunch –

Komal Sadhwani: Well, the Space Bar is relatively new, but there’s always been some sort of gathering area for the NASA Research Park tenants. And that’s been part of the culture of the area. So, there’s been either a commons area, or the golf course, or some area that people gather.

Host: People tend to overlook that. There’s a power in people working nearby. Even if you’re not in the same company. There’s just that – you know. You chitchat. You make friends. The next thing you know, there’s some project you can work on together. That’s what I never thought of.

Komal Sadhwani: And that’s part of a goal too. To have these same folks introduced to folks who work at NASA on various subject matters that could help enhance these companies’ abilities to build new things that could eventually be for use in the space program, or in our aeronautics program, or in our satellite program. And I don’t even know that we’ve captured all of that. I think there are success stories. But some of them, I think just happened. And nobody really reported on it or knew that it happened that way.

Host: Yeah. It’s just a feature. This is kind of how it comes together. So cool. Talk about something like – you know. People think of you’re a lawyer at NASA. What are some of the things that people just wouldn’t think of or wouldn’t know? Or that is a part of your day-to-day? Some features of whatever.

Komal Sadhwani: I think people would know that we are ethics advisors as well for government employees. That if folks have conflicts of interest and post-employment issues because they work for the government, we advise folks on that. We do training in ethics.

Host: I guess that would make sense. If I’m a federal employee who’s an engineer and working on big multimillion-dollar contracts, but then I’m going to work on my own little startup on the side. There’s very clear ethics dividing lines of where you can and cannot be.

Komal Sadhwani: I don’t think people realize that we do spend a lot of time with red tape. I think people understand that the government has a lot of red tape. But I think that we, as lawyers, help folks like the scientists and engineers around here navigate through that. So that they can be freed up to do their regular job.

Host: Yeah, absolutely.

Komal Sadhwani: And I think that they – people would be surprised to see us at the table, for example, discussing things at the various institutes. For example, the small satellite institute director would come and ask me how would he enable this data sharing plan, or how would we do this contract. So, there are programs and projects here that operate independently, but we’re sort of wedged in little places helping the cogs work along the way. I think folks would be surprised to hear that we are really involved in working with the UTM program – the Unmanned Aerial Vehicle Traffic Management System.

Host: It’s basically the air traffic control for drones.

Komal Sadhwani: Yeah, for drones. Where there’s a lot of regulatory requirements. There are issues related to liability and loss, insurance. That they wouldn’t think of NASA as an entity that has to deal with that to begin with. Because many times, we’re not developing the drones. We’re flying them. And we are worried about loss of the vehicles. But also, in working with partners and other operators – people who develop hardware – what are the pieces that need to come together to make this system – or make the UTM program thrive? And they’re doing great on their own.

But we’re wedged in in between addressing questions of liability. Addressing questions of insurance. Entering into Space Act Agreements with our partners. So, we tend to have sort of a behind-the-scenes role. But we’re sort of wedged in different areas.

Host: You’re kind of like in little bits in here.

Komal Sadhwani: So long as – I think the folks feel like they’ll come to us when they need us. And sometimes, that’s too late. But in order to enable some of these programs to happen, you have to find a way to –

Host: How do you get to yes? And how do you do it in the right way, so it’s not going to cause problems down the road?

Komal Sadhwani: Right. And sometimes, the problem itself lends itself to the need to come talk to someone in legal. So, it’s when that first thing crashed. What do we do? Or if there’s – I once worked a case where a large piece of equipment – a very valuable piece of equipment – fell.

Host: Oh, really? Just like – ?

Komal Sadhwani: And there was tens and thousands of dollars’ worth of damage. And we had to figure out who caused the damage.

Host: Who did it. Who’s liable.

Komal Sadhwani: Who is liable. Who is going to pay for it at the end? But also, under a very strict timeline. Because the schedule for the program required that piece of equipment. So, something has to sometimes break –

Host: Everything has ramifications.

Komal Sadhwani: – for them to come find us. But sometimes, they use our services to enable what they’re trying to do.

Host: Cool. And even if you think of those partnerships and stuff, for some reason in my brain, the first place I go to of thinking about – you think of space as the final frontier. I’ve always kind of associated it with – like there’s a whole legal world out there of how do we even navigate space. I’ve always kind of associated this with similar to maritime law or something. Because nobody owns the oceans. But there’s rules and ways of governing it. And it’s been moving into a commercial space area with our international partners, with everybody to make sure that we all know what we’re dealing with.

Komal Sadhwani: And I think the answer to that is really that we don’t know 100 percent what we’re dealing with. There are companies interested in resource prospecting in space and things like that. NASA certainly is interested in advancing space travel for NASA, for exploration. But we’re kind of at a juncture now where we’re not really sure how we’re going to deal with the issues of property in space or mining in space. The Moon and other celestial bodies. I think that there’s going to be some lawmaking.

Host: It’s a new frontier.

Komal Sadhwani: Yeah. There’s going to be some lawmaking that needs to happen or other discussions at the international level with our international partners. With the companies that are interested, both in the United States and globally. There’s going to be some legal work to be done.

Host: And that’s kind of normal. It’s like as new frontiers – as new things come to pass, then you have to come up with the framework of, “How do we live in that world?”

Komal Sadhwani: Yeah. It’s exciting times. We’ll find out. As a lawyer, it’s very exciting for me, where this is not just a technical feat. There are lots of industries that NASA supports because we have expertise in, for example, autonomy, or robotics, computing. And we’re just as interested in cybersecurity issues as many industries are. In all of those areas, there are issues related to things like privacy and adoption through regulatory compliance. So, there’s a lot of legal issues in these new and burgeoning technologies that people haven’t thought about before. And normally, the lawyers are blamed for inhibiting the ability to do things.

But now, I think we’re going to be viewed as the enablers to make it happen. Right now, even the technical folks are identifying issues of risk, identifying issues of liability that they’re worried about. This is when the technical people come to you and say, “Well, we – what if this breaks? And who’s going to pay for it? Because I certainly don’t want to be responsible.” And so, they’re looking to lawyers to actually solve some of these problems. And I think that’s a change for me. Usually, they look for lawyers after something has happened. But I think technologies changed in a way that makes the legal work and the policy work very important at the get-go.

If you can imagine if the policy issues and the legal issues are not defined for something like a drone, how is a researcher supposed to design for and consider contingencies that have not yet been thought about in terms of regulation? So, some of our researchers in human factors might design a system. And the regulations that come down the line mean that’s not going to work in that way. But if they can anticipate that now, they can at least use exist – as lawyers, we can provide a framework for how that’s viewed now and what might be the case in the future based on existing case law or based on whatever little we know now. To help them even design for the future.

And that’s, to me, a very exciting time for lawyers. Especially a NASA lawyer who actually thinks about a lot of these things moving forward.

Host: For folks listening, if you have any questions for Komal – anything about how life being a lawyer at NASA is – we are on social media @NASAAmes on all the major platforms. We’re using the hashtag #NASASiliconValley. But thank you so much for coming. This has been fun.

Komal Sadhwani: Thank you, Matt. It was great being here.

Host: You’ve been listening to the NASA in Silicon Valley Podcast. If you have any questions, on Twitter, we’re @NASAAmes and we’re using #NASASiliconValley. Remember we are a NASA podcast, but we aren’t the only NASA podcast, so don’t forget to check out our friends at “Houston We Have a Podcast,” and there’s also “Gravity Assist” and “This Week at NASA.” If you’re a music fan, don’t forget to check out “Third Rock Radio.” The best way to capture all of the content is to subscribe to our omnibus RSS feed called “NASACasts” or visit the NASA app on iOS, Android or anywhere you find your apps.

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