From Earth orbit to the Moon and Mars, explore the world of human spaceflight with NASA each week on the official podcast of the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas. Listen to in-depth conversations with the astronauts, scientists and engineers who make it possible.
On episode 367, NASA and Firefly Aerospace experts discuss the upcoming launch of Blue Ghost Mission 1, its lunar lander, and the science and technology being delivered to the Moon’s surface. This episode was recorded on December 10, 2024.
Transcript
Host (Nilufar Ramji): Houston, we have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of NASA’s Johnson Space Center, episode 367 Blue Ghost Mission one. I’m Nilafur Ramji and I will be your host. Today on this podcast, we bring in the experts, scientists, engineers, and astronauts, all to let you know what’s going on in the world of human space flight and more. NASA bought a ride to the moon to deliver robots as part of the Artemis campaign. NASA is working with multiple US companies to deliver science experiments and technology demonstrations to the lunar surface to improve our understanding of the moon’s environment, laying some of the groundwork for future crewed missions to the moon and ultimately Mars. The commercial lunar payload services known as CLPS allows NASA to work with the innovative entrepreneurial commercial space industry to complete rapid cost-effective flights to the moon. Since 2018, the CLPS Initiative has been working to enable a lunar economy and support a long-term presence on the moon for the benefit of all. Scheduled to launch soon is fireflies Blue Ghost Mission, one carrying 10 NASA signs and technology payloads to the moon’s earth facing side. Blue Ghost will mark the third flight and delivery to launch under CLPS. In early 2024 two CLPS flights launched with one successfully landing on the moon, delivering science and technology. Ahead of landing on the moon. We have the Director of Spacecraft mission management from the CLPS vendor, Firefly Aerospace, Farah Zuberi, and the NASA project scientist for Eclipse Maria Banks to talk about this mission, the lander, and of course, the science and tech being delivered. With that, we bring you Blue Ghost Mission one. Let’s get started.
Host: Maria, Farah, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast. Thanks
Farah Zuberi: For having us.
Maria Banks: Thanks for having us.
Host: I wanted our listeners to understand your unique backgrounds and how they brought you to this lunar delivery today. So in a few words, can you share a little bit about your background and what led you into your role? Let’s start with Farah.
Farah Zuberi: Um, so my passion for space, uh, really started as a young kid. It led me, led me to pursue aerospace engineering, and then I worked on various aerospace products. Uh, but most of my time was spent in the space industry on spacecraft, primarily as a spacecraft vehicle engineer, and then a bit of a time as a mechanical engineer on the James Webb Space telescope as well. Um, and I was really at bigger aerospace corporations for about 10 years and really wanted to make a change and, um, kind of join a aerospace startup to make a bigger impact in the space exploration world. So I started at Firefly about two months after the CLPS 19D Mission was awarded in early 2021 as a payload integration manager, uh, where I’ve been working with the payload teams who developed the science experiments that we’re taking on our lander to the moon. And then now I lead a small team of payload managers, and our primary focus is to ensure the customer requirements and mission objectives are met for our spacecraft missions.
Host: That’s cool. So you really know this mission like the back of your hand? You’ve been here since day one.
Farah Zuberi: I’ve been working on it since, since the beginning.
Host: That’s pretty amazing. Yeah. Maria, what about you?
Maria Banks: Well, um, I actually started in a slightly different direction. Um, I’m also a musician, so, um, I play the harp actually
Host: pretty cool.
Maria Banks: And, uh, but I always wanted to do both music and science at the same time. So, um, I started with the harp and, and went to school and got a, a, a Bachelor of Fine Arts and, um, traveled around the world doing tours and, um, playing different things. And, uh, and then I used my music to, um, basically support myself <laugh> while I went back to school and got a degree in science. So, um, my degree in science is in, uh, geology and planetary science. Um, and I have a PhD from the University of Arizona. And of course, I, I always wanted to, um, I always wanted to do both, as I said, as a, as a child <laugh> and I really wanted to be an astronaut. Um, but if I can’t be an astronaut and work, walk on the surfaces of other planets, um, at least I can, uh, send base craft there and see it through, uh, through a camera lens or through the different instruments on the lander. So, um, I’m really enjoying that. I love working on different NASA missions and, um, I work at NASA Goddard’s Space Flight Center and, uh, just thrilled to be a part of CLPS and able to send something to the surface of the moon. It’s just a dream come true.
Host: It’s really exciting. These rapid lunar deliveries are really something else, especially with small American companies that are kind of leading the charge. Maria, while we still have you, um, we’ve had CLPS make an appearance on the podcast previously, but for those who don’t really know, can you tell us what CLPS is? It’s CLPS, so it sounds a little bit different, but what, what’s CLPS?
Maria Banks: Uh, so CLPS CLPS is an acronym that stands for Commercial Lunar Payload Services. It’s a NASA’s initiative, but it’s really just a fancy way to say that NASA’s buying itself a, a one-way ride to the moon. Um, think of the lander as almost like a bus. And we’re NASA’s buying tickets to, uh, put our instruments on the bus or on the lander. And so fireflies building us this lander, they’re gonna take us to the moon. Um, and that’s a, that’s a, it’s a new way for us to advance our capabilities for science and exploration, while also, um, helping, uh, develop commercial development of the moon.
Host: That’s awesome. So, CLPS deliveries are part of the broader Artemis campaign as we prepare to send astronauts to the moon in over 50 years. So can you tell us a little bit about how CLPS ties itself to the broader Artemis campaign?
Maria Banks: Well, we have 10 different, uh, instruments on board, and they are both technology demonstrations as well as science instruments. And so all of them have different either technology or science objectives that are gonna tell us something really important that we can use for Artemis, fill important knowledge gaps. Things like dust, dust is a big problem. There’s lots of really fine dust on the moon that can get into different instruments and on spacesuits. And so we have several instruments actually on this lander that are trying to tell us a little bit more about that. And all of this information will help us to better prepare for our humans return to the moon.
Host: That’s, that’s perfect. So we’re buying a complete robotic lunar delivery service. Sounds right.
Maria Banks: That Sounds right.
Host: Amazing. So Farah, I’m gonna ask you a couple of questions now. This is Firefly’s first mission to the moon. Can you tell us how you’ve prepared for this and what are some of the milestones that you’re working through as you prepare for this lunar delivery?
Farah Zuberi: So we’ve been preparing over the last, over three and a half years for this mission throughout several different phases. So first we had our design phase where we identified all of the customer and system requirements for the mission and work with subsystem experts at the company is just to make sure that the intent of the requirements were being met in our Blue Ghost slander design. And then we went through extensive test campaigns where we qualify the structure of the lander to ensure that it meets the harsh launch environments, while also doing subsystem and component testing to ensure that they can withstand the space environments as well as the launch and landing events. So we’ve had several different tests to ensure that our lander design is going to meet its objectives. One example of the subsystem tests is our landing gear drop tests where we completed nearly a hundred landing gear drop tests on lunar simulant and even concrete to simulate the worst case landing event, uh, to make sure that our, our lander is able to withstand the high shock from the landing. Um, so the, the drop test included drops from different heights, different angles to simulate the full range of possibilities that we can predict by our algorithms. Uh, another example of subsystem tests was our hazard avoidance testing. So we have about an acre of moonscape at our Rocket ranch in Texas, about 45 minutes from here. And we tested our terrain relative navigation and hazard avoidance system there on a drone, uh, so that we could get some hardware in the loop testing along with our thousands of software simulations that we’ve done to ensure that our system can identify the safest landing site on the moon in those final moments of descent.
Host: Not complex at all.
Farah Zuberi: <laugh>.
Host: So, blue Ghost has gone through several tests that have prepared it for its upcoming flight. So tell us about the lander itself first, let’s start with the name of the lander. Blue Ghost.
Farah Zuberi: Yeah. So Blue Ghost is actually named after a firefly species that’s,
Host: oh,
Farah Zuberi: found in the southeast region of the United States. Uh, that’s known for a distinctive blue glow. So as fireflies, of course, we had to, we really liked this name and we’re really proud of it. And then our mission name Ghost Riders in the Sky further just plays into that Blue Ghost theme. It’s set to be one of the first commercial landers on the moon. And so Blue Ghost is essentially forging a highway to the lunar surface. That’s kind of the theme of this mission. We’re enabling regular access to the moon for ourselves, for future missions, and as well as for other commercial and government customers.
Host: Tell us a little bit about the design or size of the lander. How much does it weigh? What can people picture when they’re thinking about Blue Ghost?
Farah Zuberi: So the Blue Ghost Lander itself is about two meters tall, which is about six and a half feet, and about three and a half meters wide, which is 11, 11 and a half feet. And so it’s wider than it is tall. It’s designed with that low center of mass on a wider footprint to help us land upright. Uh, It also weighs about 1500 kilograms, which is about 3,300 pounds. Uh, after it’s all loaded up with fuel and ready to launch. Um, and that’s about the weight of a small car, uh and then, there are 10 cameras on the lander. And what’s really cool about the size is some of the cameras are going to be at, you know, human height. So you’ll kind of, when you get, when we get these images that are looking at the horizon of the moon, it’ll kind of feel like you’re standing on the moon. And, and it will be the field of view that you would have as you’re standing on the moon, uh, when you’re looking at these images, which is really, which is really cool. Uh, and then as far as the design, we make a lot of the core components in house, including the structure, the composite panels, the legs, the foot pads, the, uh, avionics as well, and batteries and the thrusters, they are built with a lot of the same proven technologies that are common to firefly launch vehicles as well. And the orbital vehicles to help enable lower costs for us and also increase the reliability there. Uh, the, the lander itself is really designed for the payloads. It’s to make sure that we are able to fulfill all of those 10 payload mission objectives on and in transit to the moon.
Host: That’s perfect. So that’s a great high level overview on what we’re expecting on this mission and what we can expect from Blue Ghost. Maria, let’s go back to you for a second. A second. I wanted to ask you, um, what you hope to learn from the NASA payloads that are flying aboard this flight?
Maria Banks: Oh, goodness. I think we’re gonna learn a lot and I’m really excited about it. Um, I’m really hoping to learn about how our new technologies, that we’re testing, how those perform in space as well as the surface of the moon. And of course, really exciting new science about the moon. Um, I mentioned that we had, um, some instruments that are taking a look at the dust, but all of that material on the surface of the moon, um, we’ll, we’ll call it collectively, uh, regolith, right? So, um, we have a lot of instruments taking a look at that. Um, not only how that dust may stick to different materials, um, but we also have, um, a technology demonstration that’s testing how we sample that regolith and get samples autonomously, robotically on that surface. Um, we have cameras that are gonna see how that dust interacts with the surface as we, as we descend down to the surface, um, and using electrodynamic fields and, and cool things to, to see if, um, they can mitigate dust sticking to things. Um, and then we have, we’re trying to learn a lot about the lunar interior. Um, so we have some instruments that are, um, looking at, uh, um, even a drill that’s gonna drill below the surface and, uh, measure the heat flow. Um, so lots of really cool things. I’ve just mentioned a couple right there.
Host: Those are some really, really cool things. And I think that as we talk through this mission, I wanted to take a little, a bit of a closer look at Blue Ghost Mission one itself. Let’s talk a little bit about the mission overview and then get to, I wanna learn about the landing site too. So Farah, um, let’s talk about launch and landing. When is it?
Farah Zuberi: We are scheduled to launch on a SpaceX Falcon nine in mid-January from the Launchpad 39A in Cape Canaveral, Florida. Um, it’s kind of a exciting thing to be baselined on Launchpad 39 launch Complex 39A, just because that’s where several of the Apollo missions have been launched from. So kind of a fun fact there. Uh, and then we’ll land on the surface of the moon about 45 days later.
Host: So 45 days to get to the moon. How long will the actual mission on the surface last? And are there any milestones or checkouts that you’re most looking forward to while in transit?
Farah Zuberi: So we have a few payload checkouts in transit, and then we, the majority of our payload science objectives are met on the lunar surface. Uh, the mission on the lunar surface is about 14 days. It’s one lunar day. So that’s really what we’ve, uh, we’ve designed the vehicle to make sure that we have power for that full lunar day. So we’ve got the, the three solar panels, you know, so we can use, solar illumination from the sunrise to the sunset, maximizing our capability on the lunar surface. Uh, so that’s, it’s about two weeks of operations on lunar surface.
Host: So we have science operations taking place, but we also have a really cool landing site. Maria, tell us a little bit about where this lunar delivery will land and why this site was selected.
Maria Banks: So we did have two other CLPS, deliveries that launched, um, earlier in 2024. Um, and for those particular deliveries, the company that made the lander, um, they had the honor of choosing those landing sites. Um, all of the instruments were pretty landing site agnostic. Um, however, for Blue Ghost Mission one, we have a couple instruments, um, that do need to land in a more specific environment. Uh, for example, we have an instrument called LMS and they need to avoid, um, what we call like magnetic anomalies. Um, and they needed some simple geology. We also needed to go where there weren’t many rocks ’cause we do have a drill called Lister. And, uh, so it became NASA’s responsibility to choose the landing site. Um, and so that was, um, a really wonderful experience, uh, myself as the project scientist and, uh, working with the other instrument teams to understand what they needed scientifically, um, to choose a, a really good landing site. So we, we settled on Mare Crisium, which checked all the boxes for our scientific needs. Um, it’s a Mare basin, so when you look at the moon, you’ll see that much of the moon is really bright, like kind of a bright gray. And then there’s splotches or round spots that are a little bit darker. So that’s what we call Mare material. So this is one of those Mare basins, one of those big round spots of darker gray material. And, uh, they, they look a different color because they have a different texture. They’re much smoother. So they make really great landing sites too. Um, and so we had to take into account, of course, some of the requirements of the lander. So we wanted something that had very shallow slopes, less than five degrees. We want it, as I said, we want it to be really smooth. Um, and we’d want it to have very few hazards. So no really big rocks that’s bad for a drill, but it’s also bad for a lander. And, uh, we wanted to avoid really large impact craters, things that, um, hit, uh, the surface of the moon and make, um, big holes in the surface. We wanna avoid those, um, as much as we can. They are everywhere, but we wanna avoid the big ones that are really steep and really deep. Um, so we took a look at all of those different things. Um, and then we chose, uh, this landing site that’s just north of this really cool ancient volcanic feature, which actually has now been named Mons Latreille Volcano. So that’s named after Pierre Andre Latreille, who’s an entomologist from the late 18th century. Um, and he named dozens of insects including fireflies.
Host: And I’ve heard there’s an affinity here at Firefly where, um, the fireflies are calling it Mount Firefly. Is that right? Farah?
Farah Zuberi: I can’t say or deny, but <laugh> <laugh>, yeah. We, uh, we’re really proud of that name too. And, and we’re happy to see that come through.
Host: There’s so many really cool connections. Maria, thank you so much for describing the landing site. I can picture it as you walked us through it. So those interesting geologic features and, um, the noteworthy components that you mentioned as far as mission objectives go, were really helpful for me to understand.
Maria Banks: I would, I’d love to add something else too.
Host: Go ahead, please.
Maria Banks: Um, as, as Farah was mentioning earlier, um, we’re gonna be landing early in the lunar day. And so that was one of the fun things that we had to do in searching the landing site was to, um, make perspective views. So we put ourself at, at about two meters or six feet above the surface and, uh, rendered what that surface would look like. Look using, um, our different imaging that we have in digital terrain models that can help you see it in three dimensions. So we put ourself on the surface and looked around and make sure there were no, um, mountains or other features sticking up that might block that sun and put us in a shadow. Um, and then also, um, we’re hoping to get some really great images as the sun sets, so we wanted to look to the west too and, uh, make sure we, we didn’t have any obstructions there so we can get, hopefully get a really great sunset view at the end of the day.
Host: We’re gonna talk a little bit about the sunset later, so I’m excited about that. Farah, I have a couple questions for you. On the landing and descent profile. Can you describe that to us a little bit and what we’ll see kind of during and after?
Farah Zuberi: Sure. So there are a few key milestones that happen during descent. So we go into a descent orbit insertion, uh, that’s approximately an hour before touching down on the surface. Uh, we perform this DOI burn to initiate the descent sequence and place the vehicle on its descent trajectory. Uh, and then we have a coast for approximately 51 minutes where we have all engines off. And we use our vision based terrain relative navigation. Uh, our vision navigation system, as I mentioned before, that was tested on the moonscape here, uh, at Rocket Ranch, we use that system during that coast phase to measure the vehicle’s position. And then we go into, uh, De Souza guidance. It is an automated descent sequence that begins this guidance phase, which is approximately 12 minutes before we land. And then we do our powered descent initiation. So we use our engines to reduce the orbital velocity down to 40 meters per second. So to really slow down above the target landing site that’s selected by that vision navigation, uh, hazard avoidance system. And we do our terminal guidance. So that’s approximately a hundred seconds before we land. Uh, we use, we shut off our main engine. Our RCS thrusters will continue to pulse as needed to control that descent to make sure that we are landing in a good orientation. Uh, and so that reduces our descent rate to about one meter per second. And then our vision navigation system further tracks crater slopes, rocks to automatically select a hazard free site within the landing zone that, uh, was identified by nasa. so then we will touch down onto the lunar surface. We’ll use our shock absorbing legs to stabilize the lander as it touches down. And then there are contact sensors on the footpads to signal engine shutdown, and that’s when we will know that we have nominally landed. Um, and then after that we are doing some checkouts to make sure our lander is healthy. Uh, we do take a picture and we expect to have our first image within about 30 minutes of nominal landing. We’ll use our SB band antennas for that. Then we will calibrate our X band antenna. So we’ll have a much better data rate once we calibrate that and that’ll allow us to downlink HD imagery and video at a much faster data rate. So we’ll get much more images and, and hopefully video of the descent as well.
Host: I cannot wait to see all of that. Sounds like there’s a lot of work ahead still, um, all the way through the end of mission. So just really looking forward to see what we learn from this delivery.
Farah Zuberi: Yeah, and we actually just did a landing simulation. So just this morning we kind of tested out what that would look like using the, the same, uh, the same S-band and X-band capabilities from our comp system of what we’ll expect at landing to see how fast we’ll get the first image. I know everyone will be very excited to get that first image after we touch down. So we’re testing out, we’ve been testing out the procedures, we’re doing a lot of mission simulations right now where everyone’s on console. We’re pretending as if this is the mission We’re connecting it to a, a lander simulator to test a lot of the, the components and all of the procedures as we go through descent. We’re doing different simulations to, um, simulate our descent. and we’ve been testing that out. And so we’ve, we found that it’s a, it takes approximately 30 minutes to get that first image. We’re hoping to be much faster, but, um, I know everyone will be on the edge of their seats for that first image back down.
Host: So practice makes perfect and picks or it didn’t happen is what I’m hearing from you right now. <laugh>,
Maria Banks: Do you have, um, a plan for what that first image is? Like? Which camera? Which direction? Hint, if it’s pointed to the southeast, we might get a great view of that volcano speaking as a geologist <laugh>
Farah Zuberi: we’ll be taking images throughout descent, so we’re gonna have a lot of images stored on our cameras on board. I believe the plan for that first image though will be a downward facing camera.
Maria Banks: Okay, Nice
Farah Zuberi: Um, so we’ll, we’ll be able to see the lunar surface kind of where, uh, where we land. It’ll be, How do I explain it? Just before you land, It’s like the one that is looking down the solar panel down to the surface. So you’ll get to see a little bit of the lander along with the lunar surface in that first image. But we’ll have cameras. We have about 360 degree view, uh, using all ten cameras on the lander. So we’ll have images from each camera as we go through descent and a definitely after landing as well. So we’ll just downlink them when we have a higher data rate after we’ve calibrated our X band antenna. Landing on the lunar surface is really difficult. There are a lot of things that have to go nominally to, to make this happen. That includes, uh, the propulsion system, that includes the vision navigation system there. We, we, we run an extensive test campaign to make sure that all of these components and subsystems are going to operate nominally, but there are a lot of things that have to go right in the right order and a lot you can’t actually test until you’re in the mission and you’re using all of the actual flight components. So if all goes nominally and everything works the way that we planned for, then we’ll have that first image within about 30 minutes after descent.
Host: I’m getting goosebumps. It’s so exciting. This is a large delivery for nasa. There’s 10 science and technology instruments. I look at Maria right now and I’m saying LEXI, RAD, PC, LISTER. What are these things? Tell us about the payloads Maria.
Maria Banks: Oh, sure. I’d love to. Um, yes, this is for our eclipse deliveries. Um, this is the largest number of instruments that we’ve flown on one of our landers, um, so far. And, uh, each of these instruments were selected individually, so they weren’t necessarily chosen to work together. But these are fabulous teams. They’re all amazing scientists and they are actually working really well. You know, they work really great together as a team. Everybody’s helping each other and, uh, it’s just fabulous to work with all of them. Um, so, but here, let me tell you a little bit about each of the instruments. So we have the NGLR, which is the Next Generation Lunar Retro Reflector. So this is a large retro reflector, and as it sounds, it’s the next generation, um, based off of the retro reflectors that were flown in Apollo and put on the lunar surface. So a lot of the CLPS lands are flying small retro reflectors that are meant to be, uh, ranged to by lasers from orbiting spacecraft. This one’s, um, it’s bigger and it’s meant to be ranged to from lasers on earth, much like lasers have ranged to the Apollo retro reflectors. And so this is really neat. This, um, this NGLR along with, uh, the smaller, they call them LRAs, um, the smaller retro reflectors that other CLPS landers are flying, um, altogether they are going to create these lunar fiducial markers all around the surface of the moon, um, that we can, uh, range to, um, from our other orbiting spacecraft, um, often into the future for decades into the future. So really important, um, exciting instrument and, and something we can relate to. ’cause we can actually, um, shine our lasers on it from the earth, um, and see that that light reflected back, which is really exciting. Um, so I’ve mentioned this one a couple times. The Regolith Adherence Characterization, um, or that’s the acronym RAC. And, uh, so this is one of our, our regolith instruments. Um, so they’re, they’re test testing how that dust adheres to different materials that they have. Uh, on the instrument we have the electrodynamic dust shield, um, which is called EDS. And so that’s also looking at dust and dust mitigation using electrodynamic fields. Um, I’ve mentioned the drill Part of our landing site was we wanted to make sure that we didn’t have many rocks on the surface as well as below the surface. And that’s because we have this drill, it’s called LISTER, which stands for the Lunar Instrumentation of Subsurface Thermal Exploration with Rapidity. And, uh, this drill is going to drill into the surface, um, up to about three meters. So that’s up to about nine feet.
Maria Banks: Um, so really excited to see that and work with the team to make that happen. Um, and they are investigating the heat flow of the lunar interior. So they’re gonna be taking temperature measurements on the way down. So we also have a, the Stereo Cameras for Lunar Plume Surface Studies. That’s an acronym that spells SCALPSS. Um, and so these are several cameras on the lander they’re gonna be facing down towards the surface. And, um, showtime for this camera is mostly on the descent down to the surface. What they wanna do is study those plumes surface interactions. So they wanna see how the thrusters from the lander is interacting with the materials that regolith and that dust on the surface. They wanna see how that happens and they’ll be taking stereo images and being able to look at that in great detail. It’s a variation on this instrument that’s flown on Mars, actually in some of our Mars landers. Um, we also have the LEXI instrument, so that’s the Lunar Environment, heliospheric X-ray Imager. So they are acquiring X-ray images of earth’s magnetosphere. Um, we also have LMS, the Lunar Magnetotelluric Sounder, so they’re constraining temperature structure and thermal evolution. Um, they’re trying to understand, um, and study that crystal electric and magnetic fields. Um, for some of our technology instruments, we have a Radiation Tolerant Computer system, also called RadPC. And so just like it sounds, it’s a computer system that’s trying to understand the radiation environment on the moon and how that radiation environment, um, impacts that computer system. You know, again, testing our technologies for longer period durations on the surface and making sure we have computers that can hold up in that radiation environment. Um, really interesting instrument is LuGRE, so that’s the Lunar GNSS Receiver Experiment. So they are investigating the first use of GNS, that’s Global Navigation Satellite System in transit to the moon, and then on the lunar surface. So they’re gonna be turning, we’re gonna be rotating the lander and facing it towards the earth, um, to try to receive those GNSS, um, signals all the way to the moon. Not, well, not continuously, but, uh, intermittently on the way to the moon and then on the lunar surface. And last but not least, we have a Lunar PlanetVac. I love that name. Uh, we call it LPV. And, uh, that is testing, regular sampling, sampling technologies.
Host: So lots of science and all I’m picturing as you talk, um, by the way, great job in naming all 10 of those payloads, <laugh>. Um, but all I’m picturing as you talk are these 10 different things trying to work together to achieve different goals. So how do all of the payloads work together on Blue Ghost? Is it, do they all operate at the same time? How does, how does that schedule look?
Maria Banks: Well, it’s all about, and this is, I’m looking at Farah, I can
Farah Zuberi: Talk to it a little bit as well.
Maria Banks: Yeah,
Farah Zuberi: Well, somebody, uh, earlier,
Maria Banks: go ahead.
Farah Zuberi: Somebody said, kinda explained it as a Swiss army knife. There’s gonna be so many happening after we land on the moon. So there are several different deployments. As Maria mentioned, there are several, um, several payloads that are interacting with the lunar surface. So we have the Lunar PlanetVac, which is on a surface access arm that deploys to the surface. And then we have another payload that’s on that. So our EDS payload that deploys down as well to collect dust on top of it to see if there mitigation technologies will, uh, deflect that dust. And then we have our LISTER payload, which does the drilling operation. And then we have several different deployments. So the LMS has a mass that’s on top of the vehicle that deploys upwards and then four probes, electro yeah, electrodes that deploy outwards, one in each direction of the vehicle. And then we have a door that deploys from LEXI, so that X-ray imager, that telescope that’s on the top
Maria Banks: On a gimbal,
Farah Zuberi: It is on a gimbal. And so of course we have our gimbal appointments, but we also deploy that door, um, so that it, its optics are, um, that door that’s there to prevent any damage to the optics, uh, prior to its pointing the position that it wants to look at. So there are several different deployments or several different things that are, you know, with rack they have, those wheels are turning to make sure that they’re each getting imaged and exposed to the dust environments. There are a lot of different movements that are gonna be happening. So it’s hard to visualize when you can’t actually see this on the moon. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. There’s not a camera looking at the lander after it’s on the moon. It’s really cool to see. Now, while we have the lander here in Austin and we’re doing a lot of the functional tests, we’re able to, we, we can’t do all of the deployments, of course, we can’t, uh, do everything as, as we would on the, the surface to protect the payloads, but there, it’s really cool to see the movement of everything as we’re running through those functional tests to make sure that things are going really well. But because we have 10 payloads, there’s a lot of interactions that we have to consider when we’re planning our operations. So we have a payload operations plan where we as, uh, define all of the requirements for their mission and schedule those whenever there is availability. We have to look at power, we have to look at data, we have to look at what they’re actually doing. There are some that don’t wanna operate when there’s dust being thrown up. So when there’s a drilling operation or the sampling operation, there are some payloads that can’t really, don’t want to work during those times because it’ll impact their science when they’re doing imaging or something like that. So they’re all collecting different science, uh, as Maria mentioned, they’re all, they’re all very unique. They’re all, they all have their different science objectives. They’re not necessarily working together as far as collecting science goes, but they all are working together on the lander and we have to fit all of their missions in. So, we have to look at all of the, the payloads in their operations plan and kind of schedule them as, so
Host: It’s an intense project management plan with a lot of moving parts.
Farah Zuberi: Yeah,
Maria Banks: Absolutely. I, I like to think of it a bit as a, a puzzle. Actually, Farah, you described that really, really well. Um, but a as Farah was saying, you know, we are, we’re, you have to take into account, you know, the limited resources of the lander, right? We only have so much power. Um, they’re all collecting data, then we have to get that data back to the earth, right? And we have limited bandwidth to do that with. Um, and some of the payloads, um, as Farah was mentioning, need to operate at different times. Some need to operate as quickly as possible when we get on the surface, some of those cameras like SCALPSS, they wanna, again, understand that dust environment before literally the dust settles. And, um, and some of them have thermal concerns, right? Um, at as, uh, you think of the moon maybe as a cold place, but, um, it doesn’t have, uh, an atmosphere to dissipate that sunlight that it gets. So as we get to lunar noon, it gets warmer, warmer and warmer. And, uh, so these instruments, it’ll get too warm for them to actually operate. So we have to pay attention to all those factors and plug all the pieces into the puzzle at the right times so that, um, everyone can operate and get all of their science, um, based on the different times that they need to operate.
Host: So all of these pieces of the puzzle working together and operating. So each payload has its own operation center, will have Firefly with its broader mission control, if you will, with their mission operation center, where they’ll be looking at the mission objectives overall. But then each of the 10 NASA payloads has its own little operating setup. So can you talk to us a little bit about that, Maria?
Maria Banks: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so each of our, of our teams will be operating remotely except for one that will be here on center. Um, but they all have, um, access to our voice loops, right? So when you’re on console, you can, you can speak to each other. And so they’re working directly with Firefly, with their payload coordinator. They’re working with me, the project scientist, and we have, um, it’s, there’s so many instruments. We kind of got all hands on deck, right? So we have our integration manager on the NASA side and, and others that are there, um, all on the voice loops, so we can all work together to make sure, um, these operations run as smoothly as possible. And so the different payload teams are gonna be at their home institutions, and they’ve all set up their own operation centers with their computers and all of the software that they need, and they have access to the voice loop so they can talk with us as if they’re right here with us.
Host: So, cool. I love, uh, I love the fact that, um, NASA’s working with, uh, commercial industry to achieve this and, um, fireflies first lunar delivery. So very, very exciting. Do either one of you see, um, or could either one of you describe some of the challenges in considerations for landing or operating on the moon?
Maria Banks: um, sure. There’s, there’s lots of challenges to consider. Um, while we’re operating on the moon, we mentioned the thermal environment. Um, the, the temperatures changing throughout the lunar day, um, getting warmer and then back colder again as we get closer to the sun setting. Um, and so different instruments function differently at, at those changing temperatures. So we need to take that into consideration. Um, you know, also, uh, communications for example, um, maybe we’ll land at an orientation that we didn’t expect. And so, um, we won’t have maybe the power, the exact power that we were hoping to get. Not Farah. I’m not saying that that’ll happen. Of course. Yeah. We,
Farah Zuberi: We’ve tried to def design the system to, to make sure that even if we’re at a slope, we’ll be able to maximize those, uh, capabilities from our solar panels and our batteries, and then our high gain antenna is on a gimbal, so we’ll be able to calibrate that. Right.
Maria Banks: But those are the challenges you have to, had to think about. Right. Which is really great that you planned ahead for those. That’s great. Um, but then also, you know, just even communicating back with Earth what’s happening on the earth that might affect the ground station that you’re communicating with, be it high winds or weather, these are all kinds of challenges that, um, you just plan for and you see what happens. And, uh, um, there’s also challenges with the payloads working together. So some of the payloads are trying to mitigate dust or see how dust sticks to their different surfaces. And other ones like lunar planet vac and lister, they’re doing, um, activities on the surface that are gonna kick that dust up. Right? So, so some of those are challenges too, to think about, like how do we coordinate those different teams and when they operate their different instruments, um, so that, uh, they’re not affecting the science results that maybe another instrument might get.
Farah Zuberi: Yeah. And, and going to your point about communication. So all of the Blue Ghost data, we’re working with our, uh, communicate our ground station network. So we’re working with the ground station network that we’ve contracted. So all of that payload data and all of the lander data really is traveling back to earth you through the landers communication system. So once it arrives back to the ground station, it’s sent to our mission operations center here in Texas, and then distributed to those respective payload teams. So we’ve gone through a lot of tests on what the latency might look like, if the payload needs to react to something that maybe there’s a temperature measurement or there’s something that, uh, they find an anomaly with, we need to make sure that we practice all of those things out on the ground. So we practice what that latency might look like and what the actions might look like. So as we’re preparing anomaly responses, we’re getting to practice those in our mission operations simulations that we’re going through right now.
Maria Banks: And what is that latency in a, the best case scenario, let’s say
Farah Zuberi: The, the best case scenario is seconds. That’s seconds. That’s what we’re, we’re hoping to achieve. Nice. Uh, I know we have a requirement for several minutes, but we are hoping to, to get much under that and have that payload data delivered, you know, to us and then directly to the payload services. So using their remote consoles and then, and then of course, because they’re using remote consoles, they’re using wifi as well. So we need to make sure that we’ve got good connections there, but we’ve practiced that multiple times we have with those remote payload centers to, to ensure that there aren’t any laggy issues.
Host: I keep saying this, but practice makes perfect seems to be the theme of, of preparing for Blue Ghost Mission one.
Farah Zuberi: Absolutely.
Maria Banks: Absolutely.
Host: We’ve talked a little bit about the payloads, we’ve talked about what the science goals are, how the lander works, how the Lander was developed. So really, I think the question that I have for both of you guys is why is it important to explore the moon? Who wants to start?
Farah Zuberi: I, I mean, I, I feel like there’s so many reasons, uh, personally, as, as I mentioned, I’m very passionate about space exploration, and I have the personal goals of why this is so important, um, and so exciting. I think a lot of people can relate to that. There’s a, a increasing interest in space exploration, and this is enabling that pathway to the moon and other deep space missions. So the technology demonstrations that are being operated on this Blue Ghost Lander are going to be, that that data is gonna be used to improve upon future landers and, and future robotic instruments that will be included in future Spacecraft in support of the Artemis campaign. So, and as we continue to explore the moon, we expect to uncover other critical data and resources that will provide lasting benefits to life on Earth.
Maria Banks: That’s really well said, Farah. Um, yes. We don’t always know what we don’t know, right? You don’t know what you don’t know. And, uh, so, um, that’s what exploration’s all about. Um, the moon, we can think of it almost as a, as a time capsule, I suppose. Um, uh, we can learn a lot from the moon, um, that will tell us a lot about our own earth. Um, and we can learn things that can help us understand our own planet and understand different ways we can live on our planet and, and basically improve our life. And, and Farah was mentioning the technologies too. So much of our, our technologies that we’ve tested for the space program, um, have been able to, to be used to improve our quality of life here on earth. So, um, besides just learning about the moon and exploring and preparing to send humans back to the moon, we’re also gonna learn a lot of things, um, that help us understand our own world, um, and will impact our own lives.
Host: Farah, one last question to close this out. What’s next for Firefly?
Farah Zuberi: So on the spacecraft side, we’re, we’re just getting started. We have, we are dedicated to flying annual missions to the moon with payload services customized to our Lander technology and based off of the mission exploration goals for each customer. So we have our Blue Ghost Mission two, and we’ve already completed the critical design review for that. That includes operations in lunar orbit and on the far side of the moon, uh, which will be a mission that’ll be going in 2026, so that’ll be, that’ll utilize our Blue Ghost Lander stacked on our Elytra dark orbital vehicle, which will stay in, uh, lunar orbit. And so we’re really excited about that mission and we really wanna keep going. We are planning on flying annual missions to the moon. Our goal is to ultimately unlock the moon by enabling that regular sustainable access
Host: That is really cool. An orbital drop off and then landing on the far side of the moon. Looking forward to it.
Maria Banks: In addition to this flight, there’s another CLPS flight actually scheduled to launch, um, in the beginning of 2025. Um, and there’s additional CLPS, uh, deliveries that are planned through actually 2028 at a cadence of roughly two per year. So there’s a lot of, um, landers headed towards the moon coming up really soon, which is really exciting. Uh, and we’ll be doing another call for proposals for instruments, um, a proposal program called PRISM, which stands for payloads and research investigations on the surface of the moon. So more, um, instruments and instrument suites, um, will be chosen and, um, really exciting future with, uh, with a lot of new things happening on the lunar surface.
Host: Thanks so much Maria. Lots of science, lots of tech, and we are really excited for multiple lunar deliveries with CLPS. Farah, Maria, thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate you. Go Blue Ghost Mission one, go CLPS and go. Firefly to the
Farah Zuberi: To the moon
Maria Banks: To the moon
Host: Thanks for listening today. I hope you had a chance to learn something more about this lunar delivery as well as CLPS and Firefly. Check out nasa.gov/CLPS for the latest. You can also go to nasa.gov/podcasts to get caught up on all of NASA’s podcasts on social media. You can find NASA Johnson on Facebook, X and Instagram. Use the hashtag #askNASA on your favorite platform to submit your idea and make sure you let them know that it’s for Houston. We have a podcast. This episode was recorded on December 9th, 2024. Thanks to Wynn Scott Natalia Riusech, Will Flato, Daniel Tohill, Dane Turner, Courtney Beasley, and Dominique Crespo. And of course, thanks again to Maria Banks and Farah Zuberi for taking the time to come on the show. Give us a rating and feedback on whatever platform you’re listening to us on. And tell us what you think of our podcast. We’ll be back next week.