A conversation with Dr. Erin Flynn-Evans, Research Psychologist and the Director of the Fatigue Countermeasures Laboratory at NASA’s Ames Research Center in Silicon Valley.
Transcript
Matthew C. Buffington (Host): This is NASA in Silicon Valley episode 11. Today’s guest is Dr. Erin Flynn-Evans, Research Psychologist and Director of the Fatigue Countermeasures Laboratory at NASA Ames. We discuss her research on human fatigue studies and how her work is preparing NASA for the journey to Mars. We also go over the applications her work has on technology and autonomy, in addition to aeronautics research. Here is Dr. Erin Flynn-Evans.
[Music]
Host: How did you get to NASA? How did you get to Silicon Valley and to Ames particularly?
Erin Flynn-Evans: Sure. Yeah. So I was always interested in NASA, but more as a fan than as thinking about this is a potential research career. So I was in Boston. I was at Harvard. And I was working on lots of different types of studies related to sleep and circadian rhythms. And —
Host: Okay. So not like astronomy, not space and —
Erin Flynn-Evans: No. Not space, not astronomy, not physics. No. And one day I was in my office, and another researcher came in. And she said, “Hey, I’m doing this project with NASA, but I really don’t like to travel. Somebody told me you like NASA. Would you like to do it?” And I was like, “Um, yeah.” So I said yes, jumped in. The study was on sleep in space. And — yeah. So I got to go to NASA JSC from Boston every couple of weeks or so during —
Host: How long ago was this?
Erin Flynn-Evans: This is back maybe 2009 or so. Yeah.
Host: All right.
Erin Flynn-Evans: And I — so I was interviewing the shuttle crew before and after they went up, talking to them about sleep in space, measuring their sleep in space and on the ground.
Host: Hadn’t they been doing that beforehand or —
Erin Flynn-Evans: Well, this was an ongoing study. And sleep has been measured in space before. But this was the largest study that — at this point, this is the largest study that’s ever been done in space. And so it was really cool, because I got to talk to a ton of astronauts, learn a lot about NASA, learn a lot about sleep in, you know, an unusual environment.
And one day, I think through my colleagues at JSC, somebody gave me a call and said, “Hey, there’s an opening at NASA Ames. So you should maybe consider applying.”
Host: Really.
Erin Flynn-Evans: So —
Host: So you were kind of like a visiting professor, researcher, something over at — with NASA for a while. And —
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. I was working on a NASA grant. So — yeah — NASA grants external universities to do work. So that’s what I was doing. And then just had a really great experience, really enjoyed everybody that I met.
And so when the opportunity came up here, I didn’t know a lot about what NASA Ames was all about. And so did a little homework, learned a lot about not just the space side of things, but the aviation work. And for my work in particular, NASA Ames has a very illustrious history in fatigue risk management in aviation. And so after doing a little bit of —
Host: You kind of don’t want people falling asleep while flying an airplane.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Exactly. And —
Host: Or the shuttle.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. So after looking at that, I was really excited. Because I thought, “Well, do I really want to narrow my career to just sleep in space? There’s not a lot of people that go to space. What are — you know, how much can I extend my career?” But when I learned about the diversity of research that I could do here at Ames, I thought, “Well, yeah. That’s a great career opportunity. I’m going to go for it.”
And obviously I got the job. That was three years ago. And the rest is history. So we’ve been building the lab, doing a lot of different types of research now than just the space flight side.
Host: So when you came over, it was an already like established office? Or were — you come over to kind of help build it and make it —
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. I came over to rebuild it. So in the ’80s, Dr. Mark Rosekind, who is currently now the head of the National Highway Transportation Authority, founded the Fatigue Countermeasures Lab here at NASA Ames Research Center. And he really was the, you know, sort of seminal researcher in fatigue risk management, building fatigue risk management plans for aviation. So he had the lab — at that point really created a legacy. But some years ago, the lab was dissolved. And so I came in kind of to rebuild it. And so that’s really what we’ve been doing since I got here.
Host: So — okay. So now I’m fascinated by it. What kind of research do you do from here on sleep? Because I imagine when you’re at Johnson, you’re talking to the astronauts. You’re understanding how they — I’m sure even with the people who are actually in the space station or in the shuttle — understanding. But for here, is it still with humans doing sleep stuff? Or is — how does that work?
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. So it’s all humans. We have a variety of studies in our portfolio right now. So —
Host: You bring people in, and they sleep —
Erin Flynn-Evans: We do.
Host: — or try to?
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. So we do field experiments. We study pilots who are flying around the world, probably flying some of the flights that you’ve been on. And we look at long-haul flights. So we have some pilots who are flying around the world, you know, 15-hour flights, who have to rest on board. And then we look at short haul, where pilots are up and down and up and down or working overnight.
But then we also do lab studies. So we keep people — mostly the lab studies are about not sleeping. So we test the effects of sleep deprivation on human physiology. So we did a recent study where we kept people up for about 30 hours, just sitting in bed, totally awake. Yeah.
Host: Do you guys do things to keep them awake? Or are they just told like, “Try to stay awake.” Or how does that work?
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. We have to do things to keep them awake. Because —
Host: So bright lights, loud noises.
Erin Flynn-Evans: No. So light affects your circadian rhythm. And so we really want to take that factor out when we’re trying to measure basic circadian physiology and sleep deprivation. So it’s — we put the — we put participants in a dark room. We have them sit in a bed. And then basically we do all of our measures. But in order to keep them awake throughout the sleep deprivation, we have research assistants and interns who sit with them and talk.
Host: And talk to them.
Erin Flynn-Evans: They play games. So Monopoly is a hot one, chess.
Host: As their eyes slowly get more and more bloodshot.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. Exactly.
Host: Nodding off.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. So it’s like a marathon. And so they complete the sleep deprivation. We get our measures. And then we learn more about how the body works.
Host: And so I’d imagine you have like all kinds of like instrumentation like, you know, taking heart rate and periodically checking different vital signs.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. So we probably do everything you could imagine and more. So we do electroencephalography, which is basically EEG. It’s brainwave activity. And so they have electrodes on their head. They have electrodes on their chest. They have a temperature sensor in some cases, because we measure body temperature. We measure blood pressure. So we’re really — we collect urine. We collect saliva.
Host: All throughout this like — and —
Erin Flynn-Evans: All throughout sleep deprivation.
Host: — it’s like 30 hours?
Erin Flynn-Evans: 30 hours —
Host: Or do you —
Erin Flynn-Evans: — awake.
Host: — go until they can’t take it anymore, until they fall asleep, and then it’s over?
Erin Flynn-Evans: So 30 hours was the recent study that we did. But that’s a short one, actually. So, you know, a more typical — this is called a constant routine protocol — more typical one would be maybe 50 hours or 52 hours, so —
Host: So they basically like live at your — at the lab?
Erin Flynn-Evans: They live at the lab for a couple of days. Yeah.
Host: Okay. And so obviously you’re getting all of this like data from them, I’m sure like understanding like how they’re operating. Like how does that then translate into, you know, like space flights and just — or even like airplanes? How does that translate into it?
Erin Flynn-Evans: It’s a great question. So it depends on the study. But in this particular case, the recent study that we did was to measure a new device that we think might help in predicting fatigue or assessing fatigue. And so —
Host: Like a warning system or something —
Erin Flynn-Evans: Kind of. Yeah. And so this particular device that we were assessing tracks eye movements and was developed by Dr. Lee Stone, who is also here at Ames. And what we did was we gave these people this eye test over and over and over again throughout the day and the night while they were experiencing the sleep deprivation.
Host: What kind of eye test is this, like a normal optometrist — you see the E and the letters?
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. Not quite. Yeah. So they have to stare at a screen with moving dots. So pretty boring and not particularly exciting.
Host: Is it one of those where you click the button when you see a flash or something?
Erin Flynn-Evans: Basically. Yeah. Exactly.
Host: If — anybody who’s been to the optometrist, you know, you’re familiar with it.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Exactly. And so we are finding that we can pick up signals that show when somebody’s maybe too sleepy to perform. And so we could, you know, theoretically take a device like this, move it into either aviation or space flight, and maybe have a better way to detect when people are sleepy. Because you would think that somebody would say, “Oh, I’m too tired to do this or that.” But the reality is that we aren’t very good at detecting when we’re actually not performing well.
Host: Okay. You’re probably the — you’re like, “I’m good.”
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. Exactly.
Host: You’re probably the worst judge of how well you’re doing.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. “I’ve been up 30 hours. No problem.”
Host: Like, “I’m good. I feel great.” And you’re like, “No way.”
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. Exactly. So we need these objective tests to be able to keep everyone safe when they’re flying around the world, and also to keep the astronauts safe when they’re performing tasks in space.
Host: So what are some of the interesting findings and conclusions you kind of have learned in the course of being here, and especially, you know, from the — you did sleep work at Harvard before, and then coming to — like what are some of the cool stories or cool things that you discovered that you — surprised you, I guess?
Erin Flynn-Evans: Well, I think, you know, there’s a lot of really interesting and exciting things that we do. I think one of the most interesting would be that when scientists and astronauts here on earth are working on Mars rovers, they work on Mars time. And Mars is a little — has a rotation that’s a little bit longer than an earth day.
Host: Okay.
Erin Flynn-Evans: And you would think that might not be a big deal for, you know — you might think, “Oh, you know, it’s about 39 minutes longer. So big deal. Not too much different.” But the reality is that when you’re shifting a little bit later every day, particularly if you’re working on earth, after a couple of weeks you’re going to be sleeping during the day and working at night. And you’re —
Host: It kind of messes up your rhythm.
Erin Flynn-Evans: — just going to rotate around again. Exactly.
And so it’s been really valuable for us, because we can study these scientists and engineers who are working on like the Mars Curiosity rover, for example, and then take that information and provide guidance that might be helpful for when humans go to Mars and have to live on Mars. So that’s really been exciting.
Host: So two birds with one stone. It’s like they’re already doing their science off of the Mars rover, but then also get more info.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Exactly. So it’s been really fun. And then I think one other project that we’ve done that’s been one of my favorites that I’ve ever done is we’re working on helping to design the habitable environment for future space vehicles, particularly with respect to the sleep environment. So —
Host: This is like talking about like the Orion like journey to Mars like capsule.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. Orion and beyond. And so we’re putting together some guidance. And again, you think, “Oh, guidance. That sounds kind of boring.” But to do this, we really had to assess what constitutes an optimal sleep environment. Because many of us don’t even have an optimal sleep environment here on earth. You know, you want cool, dark, quiet. And when you’re in space, that’s really hard to achieve.
Host: Yeah. Because it’s not like there’s a normal sunrise, sunset.
Erin Flynn-Evans: No. Yeah.
Host: You almost have to establish that yourself, and then probably even like shifts, you would think.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Exactly. So we have to design basically a sunrise, sunset type of protocol. We have to make sure that they have enough space to do everything that they need to do in addition to sleeping. And then we need to make sure that in their sleep space, you know, there’s noise mitigation, sound mitigations, light mitigation, so that they can have sleep that’s not disrupted.
Host: What do you see as kind of like the next steps? So you’re getting this data. You’re kind of — is it really more so focused towards those long-term habitats? Or do you even look at like what it would be like on Mars or —
Erin Flynn-Evans: Sure. Yeah. So we are thinking about long-term habitats. So it’s going to be really complicated. I mean, anything related to Mars is complicated. But we need to figure out how we can take enough equipment and supplies to create two different sleep environments.
Because when you’re on a ship, you can use all of the habitable volume around you. So if you’re sitting in a typical room, if you want to go to sleep, you know, if you were on the space station, you could sleep on the ceiling, or you could sleep curled up in a ball in the corner. It really doesn’t matter where you are. You can use all of that space. So we can have vertical sleep chambers for the astronauts. And we have vertical sleep chambers right now up on ISS. But when we go to Mars, obviously we need horizontal positioning. Yeah. You’re going to have gravity to deal with. And we also know from life on earth that comfort is a big deal once you have gravity again.
And so you can’t just have a military-issue cot. You’re going to need something that’s comfortable and stable, that is accommodating to individual differences. So there are a lot of things.
Host: So talk a little bit more about like — about the space station. Because, I mean, you lay down. You sleep. I like to sleep on my side. You know, but it’s like when you’re in space in like zero gravity or very, very low gravity, you’re just kind of floating out there.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Oh, yeah.
Host: So what is that like for them? Like how —
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. It’s — I think it’s got to be pretty crazy. Obviously I haven’t —
Host: Hard to get used to, even, you know.
Erin Flynn-Evans: — been to space, but — yeah. I think they do report that it can be hard to get used to. The crew members who have gone up a couple of times will say that their body kind of remembers sleeping in space. But a really cool thing is not everybody sleeps quite the same in space. So some people like to free float. And so some people will just free float. And we hear from other crew members like, “Oh, yeah. This guy likes to float. And we’ll just see him sleeping, and he’ll float by. And we have to move him back to his space.”
Whereas other crew members, you know, prefer the sensation of being, you know, tied down to something. So they’ll like harness themselves to a wall in order to sleep and maybe even harness a pillow to their head.
Host: Oh, just as like a mental thing.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Just to feel that sensation. Yeah.
Host: Because it’s not like you have that pressure of —
Erin Flynn-Evans: Exactly.
Host: So this seems like this would — I mean, not only relevant to NASA and to space flight and long-term journey to Mars, but I can imagine there’s a lot of transfer for like other industries here, even to like public-sector stuff, or even applicable to anything from like nurses or truck drivers, let alone like, I mean, talking about like, you know, air pilots. So — and are you working with people on that or —
Erin Flynn-Evans: Absolutely. Yeah. We’re working with a lot of different groups here on the ground. You know, with airlines, we’re working on improving the bunks for, you know, the really big airplanes, like the triple 7 and the 747, so that they get better sleep when they’re on a plane.
And then we have to do a lot with shift work. Because again, you know, when we think about Mars, we have to think about how do we shift somebody’s rhythm so that they can sleep at different times of day. When we think about the space station, they don’t have sunrise and sunset, so we have to have special lighting to help them shift.
And so we can use that technology that we developed, the types of lighting protocols that we have, the scheduling protocols that we have, and bring them back to earth to help doctors, nurses, truck drivers, really anybody who does any sort of shift work.
Host: So basically that guidance. I mean, it’s just kind of like, “Here’s our recommendations.”
Erin Flynn-Evans: Exactly.
Host: “If you want to optimize how your workers are sleeping, this is what we recommend.”
Erin Flynn-Evans: And it helps with jet lag, too. So we can optimize sleep schedules so that people can recover from jet lag more quickly, which I think is really valuable for those of us who are constantly popping around the country or beyond.
Host: So — but for you, has it changed how you sleep? Do you actually apply what you learn? Is that like —
Erin Flynn-Evans: I do. I absolutely apply what I learn. In fact, I try to — I really — you know, I see the data every day. So I know the connection between cognitive function and sleep. And I know that if I don’t get appropriate sleep —
Host: You cannot claim ignorance.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Right. No. And —
Host: You know too much.
Erin Flynn-Evans: — the problem is, I’m going to be making mistakes. But I don’t know the mistakes that I’m making. And that’s the problem. So I know at least with good sleep, I’m less likely to have those lapses in attention.
And I’m going to London for a study on Sunday. And I’ve been sleep shifting myself so that I’ll be ready to go when I arrive and can jump right into meetings.
Host: So you’re prepping yourself for that time change. Because — I don’t know. Maybe it’s in my head. But it always feels like it’s worse heading east —
Erin Flynn-Evans: It is worse.
Host: — as opposed to coming west. Then it seems like it’s no big deal.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. You’re absolutely right. And that’s because — there are two reasons, actually. One is that most people, about two-thirds of the population, have a circadian rhythm which — that’s your internal clock — that’s set a little bit late. So it’s easier for people to kind of stay up a little bit later. More people are night owls than are early birds. And so when you travel west, it’s — you’re just staying up a little bit later.
Host: You’re just staying up a little bit later. No big deal.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Whereas if you’re going east, you have to get up — you know, if you’re going from West Coast to East Coast, the difference between 7:00 a.m. and 4:00 a.m. is pretty huge.
And then the other issue is that the way that the circadian rhythm adjusts to new times zones is through light. And when you travel eastward, you get light at the wrong time. And so that actually really messes up your body clock and makes it much more difficult for you to adjust and synchronize. Whereas when you travel west, you don’t have the same type of problem.
Host: So for anybody listening, it’s kind of like, I feel tired, or they just — apart from just wanting to learn about NASA and wanting to learn about science, what are the typical tips of like this is how you stay awake, this is how you stay alert? Obviously if you’re going to London, you’re doing a trip, you can prep yourself a little bit.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Right.
Host: But what’s the stuff that people probably take for granted but are little changes that could make their lives better?
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. So — well, one is related to caffeine. So caffeine —
Host: Oh, really?
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. Caffeine is a countermeasure that I think we all use, myself included. But there was a recent study that was not done by our lab, was done by a military group. And they found that when people use caffeine habitually, after a few days, they stop receiving the benefit of the alerting effects of caffeine and instead they just get more irritated.
And so a really good way to use caffeine is when you don’t need it, don’t use it. And, you know, try to get enough sleep, obviously. And use it only when you’re running a little bit low. So that’s one thing that’s really valuable.
Host: So don’t make it a habit. Have decaf until you need a pick me up.
Erin Flynn-Evans: You got it.
Host: And then use it that way.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. And then another tip would be just if you have to stay up late, if you’re traveling across time zones, you really want to think about your light exposure. And so if you’re at home and you have to stay up late and get a report done, it’s not a great idea to be exposed to, you know, the bright lights overhead and your screen. Because that’s going to cause your body to shift. It’s like jet lag. You’re kind of shifting later. And so you can download some tools that will take the blue spectrum out of your computer.
Host: Okay.
Erin Flynn-Evans: You probably know about Night Shift.
Host: I’ve noticed it on my iPhone.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Exactly. Yeah. Night Shift on the iPhone.
Host: At a certain point in time, it kind of shifts from that blue —
Erin Flynn-Evans: Takes that blue out.
Host: — to more orange-ish.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. That’s going to help keep your circadian rhythm stable in your own time zone. And so if you really want to try to maintain that regular schedule, even for those times when you kind of have to, you know, bleed your work life into your home life, having that —
Host: If you do need to crash —
Erin Flynn-Evans: — blue out — exactly.
Host: — take some of that light out.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. So that you’ll be able to go to bed at a normal time the next day. But then if you want to shift, you want the blue light. So if you were traveling say from the East Coast to the West Coast, you’d want to blast yourself a bright light in the evening to help you shift to that later time.
Host: Okay. So just kind of stay — I guess it’s like if you’re going that way, you’d kind of stay up —
Erin Flynn-Evans: You get more light anyway. Yeah. But you want to make sure you get lots of sun exposure in the evening. Make sure that you’re — you know, you may want to turn your Night Shift off on your iPhone to get that extra blue light to adjust you.
And it’s the reverse going the other way. And that’s the — that’s, again, what makes it harder when you go from the West Coast to the East Coast. You want to keep it dark in the morning roughly until, you know, fairly close to when you normally would get up. So wear sunglasses. Keep it kind of dim. And then each day expose yourself to light a little bit earlier. And that’s going to help you shift a little bit faster.
Host: Oh, cool. So as a researcher, as you’re going through this, obviously you are looking at the long-term habitats. But what is — what’s percolating in your head for the next kind of experiments or next kind of things that you’re interested — or kind of areas that kind of just spark your interest, I guess —
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. We have a lot on the table right now that we’re looking for. And I think the biggest one actually relates to autonomy and autonomous systems, which probably — yeah — kind of sounds out of left field.
But as we develop autonomous systems, you know, self-driving cars, as our airplanes become more automated, we still have people who are operators of those systems. Right? You’re going to still have a driver for a while. We have these vehicles that can self drive a little bit, but you’re still —
Host: Yeah. It’s almost like a suped-up cruise control. But you’re still supposed to be alert and ready to take over at a moment’s notice.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah.
Host: But if people get complacent, that’s got to — that’s kind of a problem.
Erin Flynn-Evans: And we’re worried that maybe as people are sleepy, because we are a sleep-deprived nation, they’re going to become — it’s going to be much more difficult for them to take control when they need to take control. They’re going to be much less aware. In addition to just kind of tuning out because the automation is on, we feel like their ability to jump in and take over may suffer with sleep deprivation.
Host: Kind of that inertia where you’re kind of sluggish, and it takes you a moment to zap out and jump into it.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. And so we’re —
Host: You can’t be at that heightened state right away.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Yeah. We’re working on strategies to try to figure out how we can take sleepy people and put them in those situations where they may be dealing with partial autonomy to see if we can help develop strategies to help keep people alert and aware of their surroundings, or to help them better jump back in when the moment arises.
Host: Yeah. I’d imagine there’s a lot of, you know, similarities between, you know, autopilot on a plane and then what are starting to come into vehicles, whether it’s truck driving or just like personal vehicles or, you know —
Erin Flynn-Evans: Absolutely. They’re hugely similar. Yeah.
Host: Excellent. So if anybody wanted to find more information on some of the stuff that you’re working on, where do people go to learn about — more about Dr. Erin?
Erin Flynn-Evans: Right. So we are shortly deploying our website, actually.
Host: Okay.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Within days we should be deploying our website. And so if they go to the NASA Ames Human Factors website, they should be able to navigate to the Fatigue Countermeasures Laboratory and see more about our lab, our staff, and all of the studies that we’re doing.
Host: Oh, and we can throw that up on our landing page. So we can have the link over there.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Perfect.
Host: And also, for anybody who has questions for Erin, we are @NASAAmes on Twitter. And we’re using the #NASASiliconValley.
Thank you so much for coming. This is fascinating.
Erin Flynn-Evans: Thank you. I appreciate it.
[End]