“Houston We Have a Podcast” is the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, the home of human spaceflight, stationed in Houston, Texas. We bring space right to you! On this podcast, you’ll learn from some of the brightest minds of America’s space agency as they discuss topics in engineering, science, technology and more. You’ll hear firsthand from astronauts what it’s like to launch atop a rocket, live in space and re-enter the Earth’s atmosphere. And you’ll listen in to the more human side of space as our guests tell stories of behind-the-scenes moments never heard before.
Episode 51 features Harry Roberts, Flight Operation Supervisor for the Aircraft Operations Division out at Ellington Field Airport, who talks about aeronautics at NASA. Roberts describes the operations out at Ellington Field and the aircraft itself that helped to make human spaceflight possible. This episode was recorded on April 10, 2018 .
Transcript
Gary Jordan (Host): Houston We Have a Podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, Episode 51: Airspace. I’m Gary Jordan, and I’ll be your host today. On this podcast, we bring in the experts — NASA scientists, engineers, astronauts — many of whom work in human spaceflight. But there’s another part of the NASA story that’s often forgotten, and yet it’s right in the name NASA itself, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. So today, we’re talking about that first part, aeronautics. With me today is Harry Roberts, Flight Operation Supervisor for the Aircraft Operations Division out at Ellington Field Airport. That’s kind of close to here at the Johnson Space Center. We talk about the operations out at Ellington Field and the aircraft itself that helped to make human spaceflight possible. So with no further delay, let’s go light speed and jump right ahead to our talk with Mr. Harry Roberts. Enjoy.
Harry Roberts, who is the Flight Operation Supervisor for the Aircraft Operations Division out at Ellington Field Airport, talks to us about aeronautics at NASA; the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, as well as, the operations out at Ellington Field and the aircraft itself that helped to make human spaceflight possible.
Harry Roberts, who is the Flight Operation Supervisor for the Aircraft Operations Division out at Ellington Field Airport, talks to us about aeronautics at NASA; the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, as well as, the operations out at Ellington Field and the aircraft itself that helped to make human spaceflight possible.
[ Music ]
Host: All right, Harry. Thanks for taking the time to come on the podcast today. This is an interesting episode because it’s not something you would sort of think of, like, right off the bat. Like, you think NASA, you think space, but there’s a whole story about aircraft, right? It’s actually in the name — National Aeronautics and Space Administration. So I appreciate you coming on.
Harry Roberts:Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
Host:All right, so let’s first set the scene. We’re talking about the Ellington Field Airport. Usually, I mean, we talked to a lot of people here at the Johnson Space Center, but Ellington’s, like, part of Johnson, but it’s not a Johnson property. So what’s the story there with Ellington Field?
Harry Roberts:Right, so Ellington Field is essentially an airfield where we’re allowed to do all of our aircraft operations.
Host:Okay.
Harry Roberts:And the aircraft operations would extend from the T-38, which is basically for the astronaut space flight readiness training program. We have our Gulfstream aircrafts, so a G-3 and a G-5, out there. Our WB-57. And then, also, when the Guppy comes into town, that’s where we’re going to store it.
Host:So it’s kind of the house for–
Harry Roberts:Yeah.
Host:All of these [inaudible]. That’s where they’re, you have them there. That’s where they stay. That’s where they’re maintained. So it’s kind of like a base of operations. You need the space because you need runways and stuff. So who else do you share Ellington Field with? Is it just NASA, or do you, is it for other things?
Harry Roberts:No. Actually, so it’s a joint reserve base. So you have Army National Guard out there. We have the Air Force National Guard, which operates a couple different aircraft to include the F-16’s and some UAVs. And then, we also have just a regular fixed-base operations center, which is for civilian aircrafts. So they have a general aviation flight school there also.
Host:So military. You got NASA planes. You got civilian planes. So it’s not like your typical airport. Like, if you were going to take a flight, I don’ know, if you were to book a flight and take it on like a 7, I don’t know, 737, whatever, aircraft, this is totally different. This is just a smaller airport. What other kinds of cool aircraft do you see? I mean, I remember seeing helicopters there sometimes too.
Harry Roberts:Yeah. So the Air National Guard will occasionally operate the–
Host:Yeah.
Harry Roberts:Apache Longbow. And then, one of the other people I forgot to mention was the Coast Guard, so they’ll operate their helicopters that are there in support of different operations.
Host:Nice, okay. So aircraft operations, the, where this sort of fits into the story of NASA — how does that work in relation to the Johnson Space Center?
Harry Roberts:Right, so Aircraft Operations Division falls under the Flight Operations Directorate, and so we play our role in that we are there to support the astronauts in order to get them trained and ready for spaceflight readiness.
Host:Trained how? What are you training them for?
Harry Roberts:So all sorts of things. The great thing about the T-38 and the aircrafts that they primarily operate out of is that it facilitates them learning a bunch of different aspects, from crew coordination and communication inside and outside as well as, you know, just the ability the manipulate different things. One interesting fact right now: The astronaut or the astronaut candidates are actually there down in the maintenance area, and they’re actually turning wrenches and working on the aircrafts that they go out and fly. So it’s pretty neat, and they learn a lot in that aspect because not only do they fly the aircraft and learn about it from that aspect, but they also get to turn the wrenches because it’s, when you’re on the Space Station, you can’t exactly have a, you know, a callout and say, hey, can you guys come up here and fix this? They have to facilitate all that on their own too.
Host:So it’s kind of immersing yourself in this world of — that’s 1 thing I always am just totally fascinated by with astronauts is you’re absolutely right. You’re not just spacewalking and flying around in space. No, you are there to do everything. You are the research, you’re the researcher. You’re the scientist. You’re the plumber. [laughs] You’re everything. You’ve maintained this spacecraft. I mean, you have plenty of support from the ground, but it’s ultimately going to be you, like you said, turning the wrench.
Harry Roberts:Absolutely, yeah. So they get to learn all those things here on Earth, right, before they get to go practice it in space. And it provides another opportunity that is a little bit different than a simulator. A simulator, you kind of know that there’s not a whole lot of repercussions there to come out of it because it is a simulator.
Host:Yeah.
Harry Roberts:But when you’re in a airplane and you’re operating it out there, it’s a fluid dynamic environment. Things are constantly changing, whether it’s the weather, or your fuel state, or, you know, the, in the engine and how it’s operating. You have to be able to adapt to those changes real time. And there’s no better platform to provide that than, a lot of times, actually being in an aircraft.
Host:Is it the sense of kind of accountability maybe, that ultimately it’s your hands turning this aircraft, so you have to make sure you put the care into it because it’s going to be you flying it?
Harry Roberts:Absolutely. Accountability, and I also think kind of like an appreciation, right. You know, you take a lot of people who aren’t used to that, and they’ve kind of spent a lot of time in the academic environment. And now, you get to put them in a different environment that they might not necessarily feel comfortable with. So they get to explore that before it’s game time, if you will — you know, being either on one of our vehicles or on the Space Station.
Host:So let’s just dive right into the aircraft. We’re already hinting at one of them, the T-38, and this is the one that astronauts are, quote, unquote, “training” in and doing some of the maintenance, but then ultimately flying. So what is the T-38? What’s the history there?
Harry Roberts:So the T-38 originated as a Air Force training aircraft, right. So in order to go onto any of the follow-on jet aircrafts, they had to start off there. And we adopted it in the early ’60’s and have been using it ever since.
Host:[laughs] Okay, so it’s an older piece of equipment, then.
Harry Roberts:It is, yeah. Some of the airframes that we have out there have been out there since the early capsule days.
Host:You can actually, it’s kind of impressive, actually, that they’re still running. Props to the maintenance guys that actually keep the planes going, then.
Harry Roberts:Absolutely. We have a fantastic maintenance department that’s been countless hours kind of out there turning the wrenches, keeping the aircraft well maintained and ready to go for everyday flight requirements that we have.
Host:So why was the T-38 the plane that was selected in the ’60’s? What’s good about that, this particular plane you can train on?
Harry Roberts:It’s provided a lot of different things, one of which is redundancy, right. You have 2 engines, which is, if you talk to a lot of fighter aircraft pilots, they’re going to tell you, you know, 2 is always better than 1, but it also provides you a very simple platform on which to operate from because, as you get into other more complex systems like the F-16 or the F-18, it can get very difficult when you’re talking about even a simple system like the hydraulic system or the environmental control system. It gets really complicated. But here in the T-38, it’s actually pretty simplistic. So it makes it, 1, easier to maintain, and then, 2, easy for the astronauts to kind of come in to learn and then go out and operate almost immediately.
Host:So are the, are all astronauts flying these jets, or is it mainly the pilots that are really grabbing the stick? Or, I guess, I don’t know.
Harry Roberts:So right now, it is the pilots that are primarily responsible for safety of flight and aircraft control, but we do offer the RCQs, so the rear cockpit qualified individuals. So they’re going to have the opportunity to kind of learn the aircraft. There’s a stick in the back also, so if they had the opportunity, they could absolutely fly the aircraft from the back. So it’s, I’m more than positive it’s been done before.
Host:So I’m trying to imagine the shape of this plane. I’m imagining sort of a tiny jet, right. It’s a fairly small aircraft, right, compared to other jets that you would probably fly. And so the benefit of that is, what kind of environment is good for an astronaut to really immerse themself in for the T-38? Is it altitude, speed, acceleration?
Harry Roberts:It’s kind of all of those things–
Host:Okay.
Harry Roberts:Because it provides that environment that is a little bit different, right. You’re taking, again, people who might not be used to this, and you’re putting the helmet on them. You’re putting a mask on them. So it’s a little bit restrictive. So then, they start to get used to those kinds of things. The speed at which it travels and, you know, manipulates. And then, additionally, you also have your gravitational forces that can be put upon the astronauts while they’re operating inside the aircraft. And so that’s something that can help them kind of get used to the environment that they’re about to go into, right. The, I think it was one of the astronauts that I’d talked about in the past, how her experiences in the plane, and how she’d been exposed to those things, and how to operate in a very dynamic situation in which the aircraft was maneuvering, it helped facilitate her being able to perform well while she was, you know, on the shuttle as well as when they were going up into the Space Station, so.
Host:Oh, so you sort of, I guess training your body to realize what’s to come for a spaceflight. Oh, man. You know, I’m going to feel g-forces this way, and that’s how it feels being really high, and I got to make sure I breathe this way. So you’re sort of conditioning your body to really get ready for that next step, which is going to space.
Harry Roberts:Right, conditioning your body as well as probably training your mind to start thinking outside the box and develop those problem-solving skills that you might not necessarily be adapt to utilizing. And, you know, really think ahead of what it is that you’re about to do. So when the astronauts are on an EVA, for example, thinking about how much fuel that they have in the aircraft to kind of translate to how much oxygen they have in their suit while they’re on that EVA. They have to manage that. They also have to think about, okay, this is how much I have left. This is when I need to start thinking about, you know, coming back inside and what I need to start doing to facilitate all those different things.
Host:So what’s like a typical flight? If you were to hop into the back of a T-38 and say, okay, now’s your training? So where are you going? What are you doing? For how long?
Harry Roberts:So we have various different phases that we put them through. Initially, when they come through, they get, essentially, it’s called contacts. It’s familiarization with the aircraft just to get the basic feel for it. And after that, they go to a navigation phase, which is going to be instruments. They learn how to navigate on the airways because it doesn’t operate the same as an interstate system down here on Earth. And then, after that, they move into an air navigation phase, which is where they’ll go to several different facilities or bases, fly out of there, and then come back. And then, finally, they do a formation phase. So they’ll actually fly in close proximity to another aircraft.
Host:Oh, okay. So there’s several phases in a single flight, or is it like a step-by-step, like–
Harry Roberts:Step by step, usually.
Host:Okay.
Harry Roberts:So we work them up to those various phases, but–
Host:I see.
Harry Roberts:In any given flight, it could be different. It just depends on where that particular individual is. So if some of the astronauts here complete, then they might go and use a T-38, say, to go to talk to someone for SpaceX, or that’s what the commercial crew’s doing, right. They’ll go talk to someone out there at SpaceX, or they’ll go use it to visit the facility at Kennedy and see what’s going on over there. It just kind of helps us, 1, get them going where they need to go, but then, at the same time, they get to train while they’re going up in that aircraft.
Host:Oh, I see. Okay, so it’s kind of like, instead of, you know, booking like a commercial flight and just going to visit the center, now you can get some training on the way to your destination.
Harry Roberts:Right.
Host:Oh, okay. And they, and several destinations, I guess, right? So Kennedy was one of them. You can go out to, is it Hawthorne in California where you’re going to see SpaceX, or is it–
Harry Roberts:Yeah.
Host:Also in Kennedy?
Harry Roberts:Well, so it just depends on where they’re at and what they’re trying to do, right. So for example, we have, we’re dropping off some of the components out to the Kennedy Space Station, or, sorry, the Kennedy Center. So that way, they can see what’s going on out there. Then, they’ll go out to Long Beach is actually where they land to go visit SpaceX out in California and stuff like that.
Host:Yeah, I was just there a couple weeks ago, so I’m trying to familiarize myself with the area. Okay, so Long Beach Airport. That makes sense. So I guess astronauts are — are they the primary users of the T-38, or are there other pilots that are using them?
Harry Roberts:Those are the primary users for the T-38. We have instructor pilots that teach, but, primarily, it’s going to be the astronauts who are utilizing the aircraft the most.
Host:Okay. Do you really take them through the wringer at any given point? Because you said there was an element of problem-solving that goes into whenever you’re an astronaut on these planes. Maybe, do you take them through a run where something’s going wrong and you have to have some kind of snap judgment to say, this is the right call? Or any kind of, I don’t know, contingency situations, something like that?
Harry Roberts:Sure, so we have simulators.
Host:Oh, okay.
Harry Roberts:And then, what we’ll utilize that simulator for is emergency procedures. So it gets them familiarized with a checklist, as well as how to operate it, and then start making those judgments and decisions on the ground. And we can kind of amp up the scenario. It’s fully graphics as far as being able to see outside the cockpit and stuff like that. So it provides that realism that is kind of often absent in some of the simulations, but, at the same time, it allows us to kind of utilize it as a teaching environment as opposed to, this is going to be a catastrophic event if you don’t absolutely get this right right now.
Host:Yeah. Are the simulators out at Ellington Field too, then?
Harry Roberts:They’re actually here on site.
Host:Oh, really? Oh, I want to — where are they? I want to check them out. [laughter] I’d like to take a ride for them. I mean, not in sort of any kind of problem. I would probably freak out. But just to see what it’s like to fly inside. It’s always so cool going out to Ellington Field because you just hear the jets going by all the time, and it’s really, it’s kind of a cool environment.
Harry Roberts:Absolutely, yeah. It’s my favorite part of coming in to work every day.
Host:[laughs] Yeah. Hearing jets, and helicopters, and all kinds of cool aircraft going by. You know, I’m kind of blown away by the fact that these planes are from the ’60’s. I’m sure there’s been some upgrades over the past that really help you to maintain them, right?
Harry Roberts:Sure. So the T-38’s start out, obviously, they have a series, and so the A model was the very first one, and we’ve upgraded since then. We’re actually the T-38 November, so N. We’ve done significant upgrades to the avionics with inside the aircraft. For the most part, a lot of it has remained the same. There were some modifications that were done to the air inlets. So we actually changed the way they were designed, and the Air Force actually adopted them because they still fly the T-38 for their jet training. And then, we made some other modifications along the way. As far as different systems, they obviously get upgraded, and we had to change with the times. We’re still making more upgrades as far as different systems would have to operate with the FAA and stuff like that.
Host:Really getting your use out of it, though, if it’s a 1960’s plane. That’s not bad.
Harry Roberts:Absolutely.
Host:So if you’re an astronaut training for the T-38, you’re learning these new upgrades. How often are you coming back to sort of just maintain your familiarization with the aircraft?
Harry Roberts:So each of the astronauts, whether they’re the pilots or they’re sitting in the back, have a quarterly requirement that they’re required to maintain a certain number of hours each quarter.
Host:I see.
Harry Roberts:So they have to get those quarterly requirements and then also maintain a certain number of landings if you’re actually the pilot. So they come back pretty often.
Host:Yeah. [laughs] I wish I had a quarterly requirement to fly a plane. I would love flying so much, but, I don’t know. I guess if you’re answering media calls, it’s not exactly the same as flying in space.
Harry Roberts:Correct.
Host:All right, so the T-38 is one of them that you — actually, you have a couple of them, right? How many T-38’s do you have?
Harry Roberts:We have several. So it just–
Host:Oh, okay.
Harry Roberts:However many are operational that day, it kind of depends due to the maintenance cycle, but we have quite a few T-38’s out there. It’s pretty impressive.
Host:Yeah. And you have to maintain all of them. How about that? So you have this section of Ellington Airport that’s dedicated to NASA. You got, you know, you’re sharing the space, and you got the T-38’s over here. Another aircraft you have are, is it 2 Gulfstream aircraft, right? Two–
Harry Roberts:Correct, yeah.
Host:Gulfstream planes?
Harry Roberts:Yeah, the G-5 and the G-3.
Host:Awesome, okay. So what are they used for?
Harry Roberts:So each of those are used for primarily science missions. The G-5 we recently acquired, and we were using that almost exclusively for the direct return mission. So each time the astronauts come back from the Station and they land in Kazakhstan, we actually go there, pick them up in the G-5, and, that way, we can return them within 24 hours. So that way, all the data collection can be quickly acquired as opposed to having them come, you know, say, via commercial or something like that. Plus, it just facilitates them being able to have an environment that’s a little bit more comfortable for them on their return home because, as you know, it can be a pretty arduous adventure out there for 6 months to a year on the station and then coming back.
Host:Yeah.
Harry Roberts:And then, the G-3, we also use that in place of the G-5 to do the direct return mission, but we also have different missions that we do. They actually just got back from it’s called OMG, so Oceans Melting Greenland. And they go out to the polar ice caps, and they do some kind of mapping with a, essentially, they have a pod that goes and, around. They have specific lines that they go back and forth over Greenland, and they map the differential between what the ice is now and what it’s been in the past. I think it’s been going on for about 2 years now, so it’s pretty interesting.
Host:Wow. I guess how often are they doing that, flying out to Greenland?
Harry Roberts:So they do that particular mission at least once a year. It’s typically, we actually just got back, so it’s late February, early March, and then, after that, occasionally, it happens in the fall. But primarily, we’ve been supporting the one in the springtime.
Host:Have you gone on any of those flights and seen–
Harry Roberts:I haven’t myself, no.
Host:Ah, that would be cool.
Harry Roberts:Yeah.
Host:So I know Gulfstreams are, it’s actually a — Gulfstream is a company. Gulfstream Aerospace, right? And they build private jets.
Harry Roberts:Right.
Host:So this, it sounds like this is not your typical private jet if it’s being used for science and direct return missions. So if I’m imagining a G-5, I imagine a sort of, like, lounge area, right, [laughs] with a bar. This is not that, right? So what’s the, what’s inside the G-5?
Harry Roberts:Yeah, it’s not so much Mad Men 1965 [laughs] aircraft, but, so on the direct return mission, we’ll actually modify each of the aircraft to kind of adapt to whatever mission it’s going to support. So for the direct return mission, we can actually, when we had 2 astronauts coming back, we had 2 beds in there. So that way, they can lay down on the beds.
Host:Oh, yeah.
Harry Roberts:There’s different medical things in there, so that way, they can be attended to while they’re actually coming back if they have any kind of issues. Obviously, it has a laboratory on board and then some other things so that way they can have kind of, like, a kitchen, a galley, essentially. And then, if we’re doing a science mission, we’ll alter that, and then we’ll take out those beds or we’ll take out some of the chairs, and we’ll roll on pallets of just basically computer equipment and say, okay, here we’ll affix it to the floor inside the aircraft, and then the scientists essentially are sitting in a very comfortable chair while they operate their computer system that’s sitting right in front of them to do whatever it is that they’re, whatever data collection they’re trying to achieve.
Host:So it’s kind of, it’s not really customized on the inside at all. You’re really just using the plane because I guess it’s fast and it’s, you can, easily modified, so you can switch it to whatever you want. And especially, you said the, for the direct return missions, now you have this plane that’s dedicated to, from a scientific perspective, getting these astronauts back to do medical testing, to make sure they have enough rest. That makes a lot of sense.
Harry Roberts:Yeah. Well, we do some other modifications. So the G-3 has a tube essentially on the back of it to drop sonobuoys out of it. So they would drop the sonobuoys on some of the Greenland missions to measure the water temperature and see, okay, how much is the temperature of the northern oceans actually rising? And then, identify that information. Additionally, we’re going to put nadir windows inside the G-5. And so those windows will provide the scientists utilize optical measuring instruments, so that way, they can gather some other data for whatever missions that they might be doing.
Host:Nadir windows. That’s a very nautical way of saying like a window on the ground, a window on the floor, right. [laughs]
Harry Roberts:Yeah, absolutely.
Host:And the, I guess you can actually drop, you can drop stuff into the ocean too. Okay, that’s cool. Do you need a public affairs officer for a science mission or a G-5 mission?
Harry Roberts:I actually just saw a story last night on the news, and they were talking about one of the other research centers that sent out their aircraft, a P-3–
Host:Yeah.
Harry Roberts:To go to this exact mission, so maybe there’s a chance for you in the future.
Host:[laughs] All right. Just keep me in mind. [laughs] So science. You got the direct return missions. Now, you’re maintaining this aircraft too, right? So what are you doing to maintain and to sort of make sure it’s going to be, it’s going to work when you need it to work?
Harry Roberts:Right. So there’s different phases of inspection that it has to go through based on how many flight hours it’s actually done and completed. So based on those different kind of requirements, we’ll go ahead and initiate whatever maintenance requirements that we have to do. It’s really nice that we’re able to do a lot of that stuff in house, and we’ve kind of coordinated with manufacturers of the engine as well as, you know, just different components [inaudible] the aircraft. Inside of AOD, there’s actually a lot of different people. So there’s the maintenance team, the operations team, the engineering team. And so to get things changed, we really just have to kind of go down the hall and say, hey, this is something that we’d like to adjust or change inside the aircraft. Is that a possibility? And then, the team of engineers goes to work, and then start to figure it out. You know, hey, is this going to fit inside the aircraft? Are the engines capable of supporting this as far as electronic loads? Just different things like that. So it’s actually really interesting to see how this all works and kind of comes together, and it’s all organic in house as opposed to a lot of different corporations that would have to kind of outsource this to whoever actually manufactured those particular components.
Host:Yeah. And you can justify it by saying that this is something that you’re doing pretty often, right? So you got a couple flights per year for, that you got to go over to Kazakhstan. And for a crew return, you got [inaudible] science missions that you’re doing too. So there’s a use case for it. So those are 2 aircraft, T-38. I’m just going to go through the aircraft. I’m just going to–
Harry Roberts:Sure.
Host:So we got the Gulfstream and, or 2 Gulfstreams and the T-38’s. One that is always so cool to talk about is WB-57. And that one’s the high-altitude plane. Very unique looking. It’s got super big wings, and it’s known because it can fly super high, right. Is it technically in space when it’s flying? I don’t know what, where’s the threshold for space is? Is it 60,000? I don’t know.
Harry Roberts:Yeah. I think it’s just underneath, but they do wear pressure suits because of the altitude at which they’re operating at. And if you had a loss of cabin pressure and you’re flying at that altitude, the air is just so thin, the usual time of consciousness is microseconds, probably, at that point.
Host:Oh, wow.
Harry Roberts:So you would need to be inside that pressure suit in order to function at that altitude. Yeah, no, that is probably one of the more interesting planes. The giant wings on it were not the original ones. They were actually a little bit different as far as shape, but they started to notice the amount of structural damage that was occurring in aircraft that all just probably [inaudible]. The engineers who built that probably did not anticipate it still flying well into the [laughs] 2010’s into the 2020’s. So–
Host:So it’s another old aircraft, then?
Harry Roberts:Absolutely, yeah. That, one of the aircraft, NASA 927, is actually, was in the boneyard, in Davis-Monthan, for 41 years before we brought it back to life after 2 years, and it is now one of the, one of our aircraft that is actually flying. So after, it’s one of the longest stints inside the boneyard and to be brought back.
Host:The WB-57?
Harry Roberts:That particular one, NASA 927, yes.
Host:Okay, that particular — oh, because there’s only a few of them, right?
Harry Roberts:Right. We only have 3.
Host:Okay. Are they the only 3 in the world, or–
Harry Roberts:They are the only 3 that are continuing to operate at this time for high-altitude research.
Host:Wow. So 41 years in the boneyard. Does that mean it’s just sitting somewhere completely unattended for 41 years?
Harry Roberts:Yeah, they do some kind of essentially setting up so that way it can kind of go into this long-term storage, but they’re, they probably don’t anticipate that it’s ever really going to get brought back.
Host:Yeah.
Harry Roberts:And if they do, it’s in a much lesser capacity than what this one is actually operating at. It’s definitely getting its work done.
Host:Yeah, for sure. So you got new wings on it, like you said, but it’s doing high-altitude flights. Is that the main purpose of it? Is it science? Is it training?
Harry Roberts:So there’s a lot of science. So they kind of, I think, originally, back in the early days of the WB, they were doing some research to identify whether or not this, the radiation levels up at that altitude, what they were like, and kind of, how do we get that information? How do we collect this data, right? And so you can actually go to the source, 60,000 feet, 65,000, and collect that information. Some of the cooler things that it’s done is, during the solar eclipse, we had 2 of them that tracked right underneath the actual path of totality, and it was–
Host:Oh, that’s awesome.
Harry Roberts:To give the scientists back on Earth a little bit longer view, right, because in whatever particular spot you were on within that path, you had a very short window that you were actually able to observe the solar eclipse. But here–
Host:Right, in the totality, it was like 2 minutes, right?
Harry Roberts:Right.
Host:Yeah.
Harry Roberts:Yeah. But here we were able to track it, and we had 1 aircraft essentially separated by a couple miles on side that, on that path, and as it traveled along that path, we’re able to kind of monitor and capture all the data, so it was pretty interesting.
Host:So how long were you able to extend your total amount of time in–
Harry Roberts:I think it was–
Host:Totality?
Harry Roberts:About 8 minutes, which is–
Host:Eight minutes?
Harry Roberts:Pretty good, yeah.
Host:Yeah, quadruple.
Harry Roberts:Yeah, and some of the other things. So after the shuttle accident with the Columbia, they were able to identify, hey, this was something that happened when the space shuttle was already on its way up during the ascent. So we couldn’t actually see what fell off the space shuttle, and we couldn’t see how it impacted. So what they came up with is they’re like, hey, we’re going to put some cameras on this aircraft, and we can fly it at such an altitude that we can actually observe the space shuttle as it goes through its ascent, and then gather that information, see if there’s anything going on that we might not be able to identify initially. So we’d have that information right after launch as opposed to having to wait until, you know, during reentry.
Host:So after return to flight after Columbia, you were flying WB-57’s out at launch at Kennedy.
Harry Roberts:Correct.
Host:Oh, okay. And observing, oh, I guess you had a lot of time, right, because you were flying high-altitude planes, so you had some, you had a good view for quite some time until it passed 60,000, I guess.
Harry Roberts:Yeah.
Host:Or maybe even beyond that? Could it tilt up? I don’t know where the camera was.
Harry Roberts:Well, it can tilt up, but I’m, you’re still not going to be able to look down at it once it passes you, but you can–
Host:Oh, yeah.
Harry Roberts:Still see it’s going to give you a much better view than, you know, because at that point, the atmosphere is so thin, so it gives you a much better, unobstructed view of kind of the space [inaudible] that point.
Host:So it was pretty operational for a while after return to flight. It was used for shuttle missions, and you got some cool science opportunities there that you can do. What else can the, is the WB-57 used for? Is it a trainer aircraft at all where astronauts are getting suited up inside?
Harry Roberts:So some of the astronauts have gotten suited up in it, and that’s–
Host:Oh.
Harry Roberts:Just to kind of, you know, see what the pressure suit environment is going to be like and see all that stuff as opposed to, again, it just gives you a different simulation, right. They can go to the NBL, but it’s going to be a little bit different to put on that suit and be in a situation like that. So some of the astronauts have gotten in it and had the opportunity to kind of go and fly, so it’s been pretty cool for them.
Host:Wow, yeah. What are the, have you ridden in it?
Harry Roberts:No.
Host:Oh, man. [laughs] You should. You’re–
Harry Roberts:Yeah.
Host:Leading the charge. You go, oh, hey, I got to do this for research purposes, right?
Harry Roberts:Absolutely, yeah. Research purposes.
Host:Well, what do the astronauts say about it? What do they take away from it?
Harry Roberts:It’s just a unique opportunity and experience to kind of get that feeling ahead of time, right. There’s always that opportunity where you’re going to sit in the seat, and there’s no time like game time, essentially. But this provides you the opportunity to kind of do it before you get there. So it provides them a little bit of a foundation to kind of build off of.
Host:I see, okay. I’ve seen some suit-up activities. It’s pretty cool what the pilots have to do to actually get prepared to go in a WB-57. They actually sit down, and you have some, I don’t know, technicians or some experts who are there helping you to put the gloves on, and put the helmet on, and make sure everything is sealed, and then you get, like, this little, looks like a suitcase, I think, but it’s, is it your oxygen, or the pressure itself, or–
Harry Roberts:Yeah, so it’s circulating the oxygen with–
Host:Yeah.
Harry Roberts:Inside the suit. So the aviation life support system guys are there helping them get suited, put it all on, make sure that the system checks out. They actually do a pressure check. So they inflate the suit to make sure that there’s no leaks. And then, they actually take all the air out. So that way, they can say, hey, are you still able to breathe off of the oxygen that’s being supplied to you at this point? And then, after they, they walk to the aircraft. That system that they’re carrying with them is actually kind of 2 piece in that it allows them to have circulation while they’re out there because, as you know, during the summertime here in Houston, it gets really warm. [laughs] So even though we’ll take them in a truck, and drive them to the aircraft, and get them inside as quickly as possible, it can still get pretty hot in that suit. So they definitely want to keep that as cool as possible.
Host:Oh, I can imagine. I’ve actually seen them, in order to take a drink in the pressure suit, they, it’s different because it’s not like you can just pull back your mask and start sucking away at the drink bag. They actually have a straw that they put through the helmet, right. And it’s like that’s how they get it through their pressure suit.
Harry Roberts:Yep.
Host:Yeah, that’s interesting way to take a drink, but, yeah, I guess if you’re cool and you need some, or you’re hot and you need a way to cool off, that’s a good way to do it. Another aircraft that is particularly interesting is one called the Super Guppy. So what’s this one?
Harry Roberts:So the Super Guppy is kind of an amalgamation of a bunch of different aircraft. So essentially, what they did is they had a problem, and we have to transport these various pieces of equipment, and it started back in the early capsule days. They’re like, how do we get this stuff from where it is now kind of all over the country back to, you know, either Kennedy, or Houston, or something like that to do the science and the research on it and also put it all together? And so they kind of came up with this aircraft, and it’s just various pieces of a bunch of different aircrafts that they assembled together, and they said, okay, this is, you know, what we’re going to go with. And now, you have the Super Guppy, and it’s [laughs] — this is the last of I think 4 Super Guppies that they built. So it is, again, another old aircraft, but it’s proven extremely useful, and it’s been huge. I mean, it’s already provided mission support for EM-1. Next week, it’s going to deliver some components for EM-2. So yeah. That’s one of the things I’ve had to learn here is the acronyms. So it moved the Multipurpose Crew Vehicle Stage Adapter last week for EM-1, and now it’s going to move the heat shield skin for EM-2 next week.
Host:Okay, so the purpose of this aircraft — and you said it’s like a amalgamation I think was the word you used — of several different aircraft. And I’m imagining, if you were to imagine like the central tube of a — and I’m not good with aircraft terms, so just, you know, stay with me [laughs] — it’s the central tube of a aircraft, it’s like the front is just kind of blown up like a balloon almost, right. So it looks like a flying manatee. I don’t know. [laughs]
Harry Roberts:Yeah.
Host:I don’t know what’s a good comparison.
Harry Roberts:That’s probably good, yeah, because it’s — the replacement aircraft for that is called the Super Beluga.
Host:Super Beluga. [laughs]
Harry Roberts:So I guess manatee would be pretty good. No, essentially–
Host:Oh, a beluga whale.
Harry Roberts:What they did is, so the fuselage–
Host:Fuselage. There it is.
Harry Roberts:Is, yeah, the fuselage is going to be the main tube portion, and then, essentially, what they did is the upper top portion of the fuselage, they kind of expanded it as well as elongated it. So that way, it would kind of fit whatever was going to be in there. I think it’s about 25 feet in diameter inside. We can actually fit all sorts of different things. So they do more than just move various components of, like, Orion around. They actually move around T-38’s that are broken and–
Host:Whoa.
Harry Roberts:If it’s broken beyond the point that it can actually fly, then we can actually load it up in the Super Guppy and then move it to wherever we’re going to do our long-term maintenance on it. It’s moved an MB-22 fuselage, which is the Marine Corps and Air Force’s Osprey aircraft, the tiltrotor aircraft.
Host:Yeah.
Harry Roberts:So that fuselage, it’s moved that. So it’s done quite a few different things, but–
Host:Osprey’s a cool aircraft, right. That’s the one that sort of takes off like a helicopter, and then propellers move from the top sort of forward–
Harry Roberts:Right.
Host:And you can turn it pretty much into a plane. It’s like a hybrid helicopter plane. It’s a pretty cool aircraft. So you pretty much, the benefit of the Super Guppy is it’s got such this weird shape that you can put stuff inside and transport it that wouldn’t fit inside of another aircraft. That’s the benefit of it.
Harry Roberts:Right. It’s not going to fit inside of another aircraft or it would take too long or be too much of a pain or a hassle to kind of facilitate moving it on any kind of traditional rail or, you know, road, kind of logistical means. So–
Host:Yeah.
Harry Roberts:Or it would just be too dangerous, or maybe they don’t want to move it because it’s too high value of an asset to have it be–
Host:Yeah.
Harry Roberts:Out on the road, right. So they’ll go ahead and put it in the Super Guppy and then move it that way.
Host:Yeah. If you’re taking about like a expensive space piece of equipment, one that’s certified for flight, you don’t want to start over from the beginning if it gets a couple scratches on the rail. You want to put it into this nice aircraft that’s going — you know that this thing is going to transport it efficiently and safely to its destination. That makes a lot of sense.
Harry Roberts:Yep.
Host:Yeah. Like you said, for high-value stuff. So I’m guessing — a lot of these aircraft that we’re talking about are relatively old, right? The T-38, the Super Guppy, the WB-57 — all these older aircraft that you constantly have to maintain. So how do you make sure that they are ready to fly?
Harry Roberts:So again, you know, it’s just a brilliant maintenance team that does a lot of the heavy lifting on that aspect. So the Super Guppy resides out in El Paso typically when it’s not here in Houston or out supporting other missions. And out there, they’re doing the maintenance to kind of get it ready. And then, also, being out in El Paso, the dry desert climate kind of makes it a little bit easier on the aircraft. Older aircraft in particular like to, like that environment a lot better than they, the humidity of, say, Houston.
Host:Yeah. So I’m imagining if you leave like a bicycle out here in Houston, you get like a matter of time before the chains rust. [laughs] So, okay, it’s the same thing with aircraft. So you got all these old aircraft. Are those, is that the primary aircraft that you have here, or is there more that maybe you’ve had and have since gone? I know one of them was actually the C-9 I think was one of them.
Harry Roberts:Right, so the C-9, which was utilized for zero-gravity training.
Host:Yeah.
Harry Roberts:And then, before that, we had a KC-135, and they utilized that to support the, they called that one the vomit comet, right, so that’s where that name came from. And that was just to do various parabolas out over the water, and they would simulate zero-g, they would simulate lunar gravity. So they could do different things and essentially allow the astronauts opportunity to kind of get some exposure to that kind of environment as opposed to having to wait until they got in space to actually experience it. So it’s pretty interesting.
Host:Yeah, learned how to move around. I did have the pleasure of riding on — I don’t think it was the C-9 — but it was when the education office was doing microgravity flights for students. That was the program that they had a while back. I think it was called Reduced Gravity Program. I actually was an intern there and got to ride with my mentor, who was in charge of the program because I had been helping along with it. Unbelievable experience, and it is so weird to try to get used to it. But what’s interesting is, so the, it does this parabolic flight where it goes up, and it’s at like the peak of that parabola that you experience zero gravity. And then, when you go down, you experience 2 g’s. And it’s, you’re experiencing zero gravity for only like a couple seconds at a time. And we did I think 30, 32, I think it was 32 parabolas. I did not, it did not take long for me to sort of get adjusted. It’s incredible how quickly the body can adjust to a completely new environment, something that is never experienced before.
Harry Roberts:Yeah.
Host:Pretty cool stuff.
Harry Roberts:Yeah, so when I used to fly just experiencing, you know, different kinds of g levels at whatever time in the aircraft, it was always pretty astounding to me and how my body quickly adapted.
Host:Yeah.
Harry Roberts:And how there would be things that I’d be doing inside the aircraft that I was like, oh, wow, I can’t believe we were just, you know, at 5 g’s at that particular moment, and now my body was acting and reacting in a normal capacity as opposed to any other time, where you’re just walking around on Earth in a 1-g environment. So it was pretty interesting.
Host:So are you a pilot too, or did you just ride on the aircraft when you were experiencing this?
Harry Roberts:So I was a, before coming to NASA, I was actually in the military for 11 years. I served in the United States Marine Corps as a naval flight officer.
Host:All right.
Harry Roberts:And so I was on the EA-6B Prowler, and I got to do that for a couple years. And then, after that, I taught at flight school down in Navy Pensacola, so it’s been pretty interesting for me.
Host:Okay, so you — what’s the Prowler? What’s that aircraft?
Harry Roberts:The EA-6B Prowler is an electronic attack aircraft.
Host:Okay.
Harry Roberts:So its essential and primary mission was to deny and delay the enemy’s use of the electromagnetic spectrum.
Host:What? [laughs]
Harry Roberts:Yeah.
Host:That’s straight-up sci-fi, man.
Harry Roberts:After that, it gets pretty complicated, so.
Host:[laughs] Okay. We’ll just stop there. Okay, pretty cool. So you experienced a lot of different forces on your body during some of those flights. Five g’s — that’s got to feel pretty intense.
Harry Roberts:Yeah. So when you’re kind of experiencing it, you don’t really notice it.
Host:Really?
Harry Roberts:There’s this one time that we actually pulled more than 5 g’s, and I had no idea. The adrenaline was rushing so much at that point that I didn’t even really notice it. And then, there was another time that I remember I was kind of had my arms on the canopy rail, and I looked away for a second, and it was at that moment that the aircraft turned, we initiated a pretty strong pull, we pulled about 7 g’s, and I was like, okay, no big problem. And later that day, my wife was asking me, she was like, “Hey, where’s that bruise on your arm, where did that come from?” And I had to think about it for a second, and then I remembered where I had my arms, there was a little lever there, and so that level had actually put an indention into my arm and caused it to bruise after that 7 g’s, so.
Host:Oh, wow, because it was 7 g’s of force being applied to your side right there.
Harry Roberts:Yep.
Host:And you didn’t even know it.
Harry Roberts:I had no idea.
Host:[laughs] How does it sort of feel like? How would you describe the feeling of extra g’s? For those who haven’t ridden on a plane. I’ve felt 2 g’s. I mean, you could probably compare it to like a roller coaster ride or something, but the feeling of having additional gravitational forces on your body.
Harry Roberts:Probably say you don’t notice it too, too much because you’re typically sitting down, and you’re not going to notice it a whole lot until you try and maneuver or move some kind of appendage on your body. Then, that’s when you notice. You’re like, oh, wow, my head feels very, very heavy right now. [laughs] Or, why does it feel like my arm is lifting a 60-pound weight so I can press this button? It’s at that point that you actually start to recognize it, and you’re like, oh, wow, this is kind of painful. And then, before you know it, it’s over, usually, so.
Host:I guess looking straight is probably a good method whenever you’re flying and experiencing these g’s. I imagine if you’re turning your head just left to right or up and down and trying to look over — I know, I mean, I, just doing like a roller coaster ride, one of the many reasons I probably couldn’t be an astronaut/pilot is I get terrible motion sickness. So even like turning over to the side would be, I guess with those gravitation forces, would sort of induce nausea to a point.
Harry Roberts:It can, but, again, you know, you’re talking about how the body reacts and kind of adapts–
Host:Yeah.
Harry Roberts:Pretty quickly. Once you get used to that environment, it becomes kind of second nature to you, and you get used to it pretty quickly. A lot of the training that we do is to kind of prepare your body for those kinds of things. So we incorporate that into the various training aspects. We do a centrifuge training, and they’re used to, one of the sets in there is you actually turn your head to the left, and you are anticipating there’s going to be some kind of gravitational force. And it goes basically from 0 to about 6 and a half, upwards of I want to say almost 9 g’s. And then, at that point, you’re supposed to be able to execute the Hick maneuver in order to maintain consciousness as well as keep the blood inside of your upper body as well as inside of your brain. And then, after that, you’re like, oh, okay. You start to learn how to deal with all these different things and how to kind of operate within that environment as opposed to, you know, just being, having it slammed into you immediately on day 1. So we kind of baby step people through those processes.
Host:What’s that maneuver? You said the Hick maneuver? Is that what you said?
Harry Roberts:Hick maneuver, yeah. So essentially, you’re squeezing all your lower extremities in order to keep the blood from just pooling in your feet. And then, you’re also kind of adjusting the way you breathe and essentially making a “hick” sound. And that’s closing off your throat and kind of the, all the main arteries that run up to your brain. So that way, you can squeeze that blood back into your brain.
Host:Wow, you’re literally forcing, okay, you’re forcing the blood up. How do you squeeze your legs? Are you doing it with your hands, or are you just, like, flexing?
Harry Roberts:You’re just flexing. So you’re taught to kind, like, squeeze from the bottom up. So you’ll squeeze your calf muscles and your thighs, your glutes, and then you’ll just try and keep all that as tense as possible. And then, while you’re doing that, you’re doing the Hick maneuver. So in addition to kind of keeping that blood flow up inside of your brain, you’re also keeping the air inside of your body because it’s a huge exertion on behalf of whatever that individual is to kind of do all these things. So you have to hold all that air because it’s real easy to kind of let it all out because we’re just used to breathing in a 1-g environment, right? And now, [inaudible]. So you kind of have to monitor that, maintain it. Otherwise, it can be lights out real quick.
Host:I can see how you would probably want to practice that maneuver and get pretty good at because in the event that you would need to pull a serious amount of g’s — I know in the future, one of the things they’re looking at is, for example, talking about Orion, you already hinted at EM-1, EM-2, some of these Orion missions, for crew flights, they’re going to have an abort system on top. And you’re already on top of the largest rocket in the world, the Space Launch System. But then, if you want to escape the largest rocket in the world, you have to have a really, a lot of force in a very short amount of time that’s going to pull you away, and you’re going to experience some significant g’s there. So I can see how if you, in an abort scenario particularly, you would really want to master that technique. I know while you were describing what you had to do, I almost passed out. So the fact that I’m talking right now is pretty amazing. [laughter] So we got aircraft operations at Ellington Field, and while we’re on the top of just Ellington and Johnson Space Center, kind of to give the whole perspective of what’s going on here in Houston because I don’t think we’ve talked about it before on the podcast, I don’t think.
Yeah, so we got the Johnson Space Center, which is next Clear Lake, right. Then, we got a little bit more northish is Ellington Field. But we also have something called the Neutral Buoyancy Laboratory, right?
Harry Roberts:Right.
Host:Which is pretty close to Ellington Field.
Harry Roberts:Yeah. I’d probably say it’s kind of in between the both of us. So like from the flight line over to Ellington, you can kind of look over and see on site. It’d be a lot quicker if I could just walk across probably as opposed to driving over here. But, yeah, you can see the Neutral Buoyancy Lab, and then the rest of some of the buildings are kind of faint in the distance. But, yeah, you can definitely see it out there.
Host:Yeah, and that’s, the, I guess you can call it the giant pool.
Harry Roberts:Yes.
Harry Roberts:And that’s where they simulate extravehicular activities, suiting up in a space suit, and going for a space walk. Full-scale markups in the pool. You can pretty much get a feeling. Just like you can get a feeling for g’s and get a feeling for this flight simulation sort of feeling within the T-38, you can get a feeling for what it’s going to be like to do a space walk in the pool. That’s probably one of the best simulators we have for what the actual thing is going to be like. And I think White Sands Test Facility is also part of the story, right?
Host:Yeah, but I would have to kind of do a little bit more research to kind of get the information on that one.
Harry Roberts:Me too. Yeah, we’ll have to bring someone on to talk about that, but that’s sort of the, I think that’s, that pretty much is Johnson Space Center. It’s mainly those facilities and probably a couple other things here and there. But everyone working together for human spaceflight, pretty much. So you said you had a military background. What other sort of, I guess most of the [laughs] flight instructors and folks out at Ellington are going to have some sort of military or pilot background, right?
Host:Right. So as far as the research pilots, we typically recruit those individuals who have had a experience, 1, in a jet aircraft, and then, 2, as an instructor because it’s going to be their primary role and function. Every one of our research pilots goes on to eventually become some kind of other pilot in addition to that, whether it’s on the WB, or the Gulfstream, or the Super Guppy.
Harry Roberts:Yeah.
Host:But, yeah, we typically recruit military pilots to be the research pilots out of there, so it’s probably one of the few opportunities that you get to fly after the military in a jet aircraft and get to do a lot of the things that you did before, so.
Harry Roberts:So is there elements of collaboration? Because we’re not the only NASA center that has aircrafts. Like, there’s actually I think Armstrong Spaceflight Center over at Edwards Air Face in, Edwards Air Base, there it is, in California. They have some aircrafts out there too. Is there elements of collaboration there?
Host:Yeah, so, actually, the Glenn Research Center, they just came down with a T-34, which is a turboprop aircraft, and were able to get some of the astronauts in there, and simulate some spin training, and then get them the opportunity to kind of sit in the front seat and experience what it’s like to fly from the front because it’s a little bit easier to maneuver and fly in that particular aircraft. And then, we also have, we’re going to interact with Armstrong. We’re going to help support them. They’re going to bring down some Hornets to do the quiet sonic boom technology. They’re going to be part of that development, so we’re going to be helping them and supporting in that role.
Host:Quiet sonic boom, that’s pretty cool.
Harry Roberts:It’s, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense when you say it out loud, but then–
Host:[laughs] Quiet sonic thump, maybe?
Harry Roberts:Yeah, so that’s the idea is–
Host:Yeah.
Harry Roberts:Turning a sonic boom into a sonic thump, right.
Host:Yeah.
Harry Roberts:And then, 1, facilitate travel kind of across the United States commercially with that technology, but also, as far as spaceflight, right. If you got to see the audio from SpaceX when they landed those 2 rockets simultaneously–
Host:Oh, yeah.
Harry Roberts:There was actually a pretty loud sonic boom whenever they came back. You could hear it in one of the videos that I saw. So, you know, developing all that stuff, it’s going to be key for future exploration in flight like that, especially since you’re going to bring it back to the United States.
Host:That’s right. Yeah, that’d be cool if supersonic flight can be just a little bit quieter. I mean, I would love to go to Europe in, like, 2 hours. That would be pretty cool. [laughs]
Harry Roberts:Yeah, I’m sure everybody would love that.
Host:Yeah. [laughs] That’d be pretty great. All right, well, Harry, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sort of telling the story of this aeronautics element to the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Appreciate you coming on.
Harry Roberts:Thanks for having me.
[ Music ]
Host:Hey, thanks for sticking around. So today we talked about aircraft operations and the Ellington Field part. That is the whole story of the NASA Johnson Space Center. I don’t think we’ve addressed this on a previous episode, but we just sort of label it as an episode because it kind of helps us keep track of how many we’ve done so we can brag about it later. But really, you don’t really have to listen to them in order. So there’s a lot of other topics that you can cover on Houston We Have a Podcast. We talk to a lot of different people — astronauts, scientists, engineers, flight directors, flight controllers, pilots — all these different, cool people with honestly amazingly stories, amazing stories. So you can go back and listen to any episode in any order. Otherwise, there’s plenty of other NASA podcasts you can listen to. We got Gravity Assist out at headquarters hosted by Dr. Jim Green that’s about planetary science and our friends over at Ames Research Center for the NASA in Silicon Valley Podcast. They talk about the some of the research that goes aboard the International Space Station. On social media, you can follow the NASA Johnson Space Center accounts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.
You can use the hashtag #asknasa on one of those platforms to submit an idea or maybe a question for the podcast, and maybe we’ll turn it into an entire episode or maybe even answer it in the beginning for a future episode. So this podcast was recorded on April 10th, 2018 thanks to Alex Perryman, Kelly Humphries, Lori Wheaton, Pat Ryan, Bill Stafford, and Brandi Dean. And thanks again to Mr. Harry Roberts for coming on the show. We’ll be back next week.