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Women in STEM

Season 1Episode 204Jul 16, 2021

Sophia Hahn, Shelita Hall, and Emily Anderson, NASA interns from across the agency, discuss being women in STEM (science, technology, engineering, or math), their journey to work at NASA, and the unique opportunities they have experienced during their internship. HWHAP Episode 204.

Women in STEM

Women in STEM

If you’re fascinated by the idea of humans traveling through space and curious about how that all works, you’ve come to the right place.

“Houston We Have a Podcast” is the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center from Houston, Texas, home for NASA’s astronauts and Mission Control Center. Listen to the brightest minds of America’s space agency – astronauts, engineers, scientists and program leaders – discuss exciting topics in engineering, science and technology, sharing their personal stories and expertise on every aspect of human spaceflight. Learn more about how the work being done will help send humans forward to the Moon and on to Mars in the Artemis program.

On Episode 204, Sophia Hahn, Shelita Hall, and Emily Anderson, NASA interns from across the agency, discuss being women in STEM (science, technology, engineering, or math), their journey to work at NASA, and the unique opportunities they have experienced during their internship. This episode was recorded on June 14, 2021.

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Transcript

Gary Jordan (Host): Houston, we have a podcast! Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, Episode 204, “Women in STEM.” I’m Gary Jordan. And I’ll be your host today. On this show, we bring in the experts, sometimes we bring in the folks who will become the experts. On this episode we’re bringing in women interns to describe their unique paths from what sparked their interest in different science, technology, engineering or math fields, or STEM fields, to working at NASA. Joining me is Sophia Hahn from Armstrong Flight Research Center in California, Shelita Hall, who joins us at the Johnson Space Center here in Houston, and Emily Anderson from the Goddard Space Flight Center in Maryland. There are many ways to find a passion in a STEM field and find a job doing what you love. Here are just a few of the women who pursued this dream and ended up at NASA. Enjoy.

[ Music]

Host: Sophia, Shelita and Emily, thank you all so much for coming on Houston We Have a Podcast. I’m very excited to get into this conversation. It’s all about the unique paths. And it’s interesting, because each of you have a different way of getting to NASA. You all are in different majors. And you all specialize in different things. And then best of all, you’re all in three different locations right now, working at three different centers. So, this is going to be really cool to jump into it. So, I want to go through each of you one at a time, so all of our listeners can get used to your voices. Sophia, I’m going to start with you. Tell me about your major, and where you’re working, and what you’ve, what you’ve been doing lately.

Sophia Hahn: Sure. So, I am Sophia Hahn, I should start with that and I am currently a bachelor’s student going for an aerospace engineering degree at San Jose State University. This is my junior year for — to kind of give a rough estimate. I was a transfer student and I attended Sacramento City Community College before I transferred to San Jose State University. For me, I am working on the Prandtl-M (Preliminary Research Aerodynamic Design to Land on Mars) project. It’s a very long acronym. So, what it basically boils down to is we are working on making a glider that will fly on Mars. And we are using some experimental lifting line theories, and some kind of more experimental aerodynamics that hopefully make it work.

Host: OK, that is awesome. I’m definitely going to get into more about that a little bit later, but I wonder, Sophia, do you have something that inspired you to go into aerospace? Why was that something that was attractive to you?

Sophia Hahn: Yeah. For me, I’ve been very fortunate throughout my life to have kind of grown up in the aerospace industry.

Host: Oh, cool.

Sophia Hahn: My grandfather was in the Air Force, both of my parents are pilots. So, I have strong memories as a child of going around with my grandpa and my dad to various aviation museums throughout the country and looking at all the different planes. And particularly being quite fond of the SR-71 Blackbird. So, for me, heading into the aerospace or aviation industry was kind of a natural thing for me, having just grown up in that environment. I’ve always just loved planes. I love the stars. I used to look at telescopes with my grandpa, and kind of look at the various stars in the sky. And I recently, about two years ago, got my private pilot’s certificate, which is basically like a pilot’s license, like an intro-level pilot’s license, for those who aren’t familiar with the term. So, yeah, so, for me, aviation has just always been there. And I’ve always loved it.

Host: Very lucky for sure. That’s awesome to be —

Sophia Hahn: Yeah.

Host: — surrounded by, by so many cool people in your life and be inspired by that. So that’s awesome. You ended up in the right, right place for sure. So, Shelita, I want to go to you next. You are, let’s see, you’re more material science and engineering. Tell us a little bit about yourself, and your background.

Shelita Hall:Awesome. Yeah. So, I just received my bachelor’s in chemistry last May of 2020. And I immediately went into the Ph.D. program at Norfolk State University for material science and engineering. And so, yeah, it’s been an awesome journey so far. I started at Langley in January 2020 with the Chief Technologist of NASA LaRC (Langley Research Center) Headquarters. And I stayed with Julie Williams-Byrd for about six months. I worked with her for the spring and the summer. Then I ended up transitioning over to the Advanced Materials and Processing Branch at LaRC as well. And I started to get experience with radiation transport and computational analysis. And then, I went over to Glenn for this past spring. And I worked on radiation transport as well for thermal electric materials, so that we will, we can protect our power generators, you know, for spacecraft, because they are, they are ultimately exposed to radiation. And so, it will degrade the spacecraft. But my ultimate, ultimate Ph.D. work is based off of studying the neural networks, so that we can know what happens to the brain upon radiation exposure. So, that we can keep our astronauts safe and, you know, create the correct spacesuits in order to shield or absorb the radiation, you know, that’s going on in space. So, that we can, you know, make sure they’re safe from the long-term mission.

Host: See, that is super cool, but it seems like, Shelita, you made your rounds all around NASA. This is something that maybe, was there something earlier in your life that you’re thinking, “oh, I want to, if I get into NASA, I want to, I want to make the most out of it.” Was there an early inspiration for you for coming to NASA?

Shelita Hall:Yeah. Like I was always interested in working at NASA, but I never thought it would actually happen. And so, like when I was exposed to the Space Medicine Program at Norfolk State, that’s when it actually, you know, became, became a reality for me. I was like, “wow, now I have the opportunity to actually contribute to NASA missions.” And, you know, I just give thanks to Norfolk State for having that program for students. And that’s kind of how everything started for me. And so, once I found out about that, I wanted to kind of see if I can apply for an internship. And then once I got it, I was like, “oh, my God, this is so cool!” So, I have been enjoying it ever since.

Host: Very cool. And now you’re at the Johnson Space Center. Right?

Shelita Hall:I am, yes.

Host: Cool. What are you doing here?

Shelita Hall:So, I am actually in the Human Research Program. My mentor is Dr. Robin Elgart. And so, basically, I am doing a project management kind of project, where I am kind of collecting all of the tissue archives from all of the different institutions around the U.S. who participate in space medicine research. So, we’re trying to kind of organize a database, where the different institutions can just go on the database, and find different tissues for space medicine research, and just kind of an organized platform for like tissue archives; just to keep everything organized. And it’s kind of helping me with getting used to like animal research in general. And so, it’s just a very, a very exciting project. I get to kind of be in the background of how like project management kind of works at NASA, and sort of kind of be doing like the research and stuff. So, I’m just trying to have an overall, you know, an overall experience. So, you know, to try to, you know, get my feet wet in different, different projects. So, it’s very exciting.

Host: Very awesome. Well, welcome, and glad to have you, Shelita.

Shelita Hall:Thank you.

Host: And, Emily, you are the last guest from Goddard Space Flight Center in software engineering. Tell us more about yourself.

Emily Anderson: Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for having me, first of all. I’m really, really excited to be here, but, yeah, my name is Emily Anderson. And I just finished up my third year studying software engineering at Iowa State University in Ames, Iowa. And I interned at Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland. And I was an OSTEM intern. And so, during my internship, I worked on NASA’s core Flight System, which is the reusable software framework that a lot of different missions are able to utilize. And that’s the cool part about it is that it’s just so reusable and so can be adapted to a bunch of different missions. And things as small as a CubeSat can use this framework, and things as big as the Artemis mission can use it. So super, super interesting. Super cool. And, specifically, what I did is I made some code changes, and did some modifications and testing, in order to raise the classification level of the code for the Lunar Gateway mission.

Host: Very cool. So, software engineering, that’s an interesting path. What, what inspired you to take that as a major?

Emily Anderson: Yeah, so I actually started off as an aerospace engineering major and during my first aerospace class, we were given a task to build this aircraft. And our aircraft had two propellers on the sides. And the two props on the sides were connected to a joystick. In order to program the joystick to the props on the side, we had to write maybe like 20 lines of Python I think, in order to get that to work. And when we did this with Python, and we did this coding, I just absolutely fell in love with coding and software engineering. And that’s when I decided to change my major over to that instead.

Host: Pursue what you love. That’s a, that’s a pretty good course of action to take.

Emily Anderson: Yes, definitely.

Host: Very good. So, Emily, you grew up in more in a rural area. Right? So how, how did you think about, you know, tell me about the environment that you, surrounded you? And then how that directed a path to a science, technology, engineering and math field?

Emily Anderson: Yeah. So, my school I grew up, we had about 40 people in my graduating class. And my high school didn’t have too much to offer in terms of engineering courses and STEM courses. And I grew up on a farm. So, there was actually a lot of agriculture around. And so, going off to college, I really wasn’t quite sure what I wanted to study. And so, before I decided on aerospace, I was actually doing law. And that just wasn’t the path for me, I decided. So, then I switched up a bit. And so, after I decided to switch to software engineering, I had never looked at code before. I’d never really, I didn’t really know what programming was. And so, I was a little scared and a little nervous at first. My major is about 90% male and 10% female. So, I was a bit overwhelmed, but after taking my first programming course, and just deciding to pursue what I loved, I was able to succeed. And I think it’s just important to note that, even if you don’t come from a background and a high school with a bunch of engineering courses, and you have this huge background, exhaustive background with robotics and engineering, and all these different things, that you’re still able to succeed in the STEM field.

Host: Very cool. And it seemed like you were, you were part of definitely a minority right there. Right? So only 10% of the people in your, in your field were women. So, tell me about that. Like with such a low population, you know, what, what kept you driving? What kept you going that says, “you know what, I don’t really care if not a lot of people look like me. I’m passionate about this. And I want to pursue this.”

Emily Anderson: Yeah, I think just having female role models is so, so important. At my first internship, I was exposed to these female trailblazers. And even in my time at NASA, my mentor did a fantastic job. She, she ran meetings. And she had so many amazing contributions to NASA’s core Flight System. And just having great examples of that were able to really, really inspire me to continue on, and try to beat that, and help improve those numbers. And, hopefully, get the female population in my major up to 50% one day.

Host: Very cool. Well, Emily, I’m glad to have you as well. And for all three of you, I want to stick with this theme of inspiring to, to enter into the fields that you did. I think it’s a, I think it’s a really good topic to help to kick us off. Shelita, I want to, I want to go back to you for a second. You were talking about some super interesting stuff. Particularly, now, you’re looking at radiation in astronauts. It seems like your, your field is just a mix of a bunch of different things. You’ve got material science, you’ve got engineering, you’ve got some biology in there, some human science. So, so what, for you, what was it that made you want to pursue something like that, but then have such a round — approach to everything? So how did you get started there?

Shelita Hall:Yeah. Well, when I first majored in chemistry, my goal was to actually go with the medicine. I wanted to see if I could apply to medical school. And so, that didn’t work out. And so, I was like, “well, maybe I should just try engineering.” And then when I was looking into the Ph.D. program for materials engineering, I saw that there was a space medicine program. And so, it’s like the perfect mixture of both medicine and both engineering. And I was just so fascinated by the idea to, you know, do this project, and then contribute to NASA’s long-term mission. And so, it was just an awesome and just an awesome program. And I actually kind of started in that laboratory in undergrad. And then kind of just eased into the program when I actually started the Ph.D. program. And so, it was a really cool experience. And I get to be exposed to just the medicine involved with long-term missions, because I also collaborate with the local medical school. And so, they kind of collaborate with Norfolk State and NASA as well. So, it’s a very interdisciplinary project. And that’s what I love about this field, because you can learn about different things, and you’re exposed to so many different people, you know, physicist and doctors. And, you know, it’s just a whole like large collaboration and that’s what I love about space medicine research.

Host: Very awesome. You know, I think, what I pulled from your story, Shelita, is more like when you were thinking about, “what do I want to do,” it really, it sounded like what you had to do was sit down and look. Right? So, look —

Shelita Hall:Yeah.

Host: — like what – you, you didn’t have an idea already. I think a lot of people might think, “oh, all these people were inspired, you know, from early on, they already knew what they wanted.” But it sounded like you didn’t know what you wanted, but it just sort of came to you in the moment. You were looking, and you imagined yourself in this field. And be like, “ah, that’s something that I would be passionate about.”

Shelita Hall:Yeah, I mean, it definitely wasn’t handed to me. I definitely had to look around, and, you know, measure my options to see, you know, to see what was available. And, you know, I kind of had to ask my professors and say, “what kind of stuff is going on?” Because, actually, I didn’t know about Norfolk State’s space medicine program. I had to kind of just look around and search and ask the professors at Norfolk State and they told me about this awesome program. And no one is really in it right now. We have a couple of students. And so, it’s kind of just getting off the ground. And so, it’s just a cool experience that I got to get to be kind of the beginners in this project. And that’s how I became interested in applying for an internship, but I’m just really happy that I kind of asked around. I knew that I wanted to kind of be in medicine, bioengineering and material science. So, it all kind of worked out when I just kind of just looked around and see what was available. So, I’m just really thankful for that.

Host: Very cool. Now, now Sophia, you had the benefit of being surrounded by all this inspiration. You know, you had people, role models in your life already that you looked up to. And you were thinking, “this is something that I’m passionate about, have always been passionate about, so that’s what I’m going to pursue.” Moving on from there, what did you do? Because I feel like there’s a lot of different paths you can take, if you’re interested in flying. You know, why go the engineering route? And then what sorts of organizations, and what activities did you do to build up your skillset to pursue this field?

Sophia Hahn: Yeah. So, yeah, like you were saying, I was really fortunate to have a lot of people kind of around supporting me. I think of it less as role models, and more of support —

Host: Oh, cool.

Sophia Hahn: — because I grew up in Davis, California, which is very close to Sacramento, California, for those who don’t know. But they have a really great FIRST (For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology) robotics team there. So, I spent part of my high school career on that team. And something that especially, always really kind of helped me out, too, with finding my passion for engineering was that team. And finding that, while the mentors were really big and really important in helping me kind of discover passion, these students, for me, and my fellow students, both in leadership and just kind of on the design team that I was on, were really, really impactful. And just kind of were all working together to create these robots that are like 120 pounds and require CNC (computer numerical control) milling and routers, and the whole nine yards. Right? And having that kind of, seeing around seeing us both male, female, LGBTQ (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and questioning). Just kind of a really great mix of people, just kind of coming together and being able to work really well together on creating these large robots. That sort of support, for me, kind of like as a collective, I guess, is more of a role model to me than more like a traditional role model sense. So, I got really lucky to have all sorts of people who were just kind of supporting my passion along the way, or helping me find it, and just kind of pushing me for it. I also was really fortunate to go to space camp in Huntsville, Alabama, where there was a similar situation. Again, it was just all the counselors there. And I would say that fellow like people in the program along with me were all just really fun, really engaging. And it was just a really great kind of supportive environment for me. And having those people that are kind of like holding your back and like, “you’ve got this, you can totally do this,” for me, was awesome. So that’s why I started actually mentoring a robotics team in the Bay Area to do something similar. And basically, hope that I can help kind of inspire the next generation of high school students. Basically like, “you can do this. Engineering is totally for you. You are 100% like this program 100% is going to help you with the future. And this is totally something you can pursue.” So, kind of giving back, I guess, a little bit. But, yeah, for me, I’ve just gotten really lucky to have support kind of everywhere with the different programs I’ve joined.

Host: You know, I think luck does really have a lot to do with what you’re saying, Sophia. But what I love about your narrative here is it’s a little bit different from Emily’s. Emily’s was talking about finding a female role model. Which I think is one, which I think is a fantastic way to be inspired by and pursue something that you love. But I think what’s important about your story is that it’s not the only way. Right? So, you don’t necessarily, it’s not like, “oh, OK, in order to do this, that’s, that’s the path that I’ve got to take.” There’s a lot of different paths. And one of those is finding a culture that works for you. And it sounds like being surrounded by all these very smart people from very diverse backgrounds was inspiring in and of itself. Not so much that you had a mentor that was guiding you, or ushering you through some sort of path, but entering into this exciting world. I can only imagine if you’re in this FIRST Robotics thing, where you have all these people from all over, with all these different kinds of backgrounds, all trying to do the same thing; that could be inspiring just in and of itself. You’re like, “wow, I’m a part of this.”

Sophia Hahn: Yeah, it 100% is. And over the years, too, FIRST has gotten kind of bigger and bigger, to where it’s a very much an international program. And, ironically, there’s a team based out of Johnson, Team 118, the Robonauts. If you take like a tour of the facility, you can actually see kind of the corner where they work. But, yeah, it’s a very big program, because like you need all sorts of people who are all doing something similar. And it’s just that kind of electrifying culture that kind of just really like, you just really want to go for it. It really, you feel like you belong. You know, you can look totally different, or have grown up in a very different environment from someone, let’s say. From a team in Alabama, for me, it was really a very different environment than like California. But, still, you have this like great common base, you all love engineering. And you all love robotics and you just have this really great kind of collaborative sense, and this great community that kind of just inspires you to keep going forward.

Host: See, that’s so important, but, Emily, I love your, your story about looking out and seeking, and finding different role models. And I think that’s a really common one. And I think it’s a very powerful way to find something you’re passionate about, and then have them usher you through it and guide you in certain ways. Can you talk about some of the role models in your life that helped to get you where you are today?

Emily Anderson: So, at my first internship was at a different aerospace company. And so, I met a few very, very important role models there. And they introduced me to these different organizations, and these different clubs and stuff with very, very inspiring women in them. And so, I was able to attend the Grace Hopper Conference, which is a conference for women in computing and women in STEM. And so, I attended this conference, and they had a role model portal, where you could actually just submit to be a mentor or be a mentee. And so, I added myself into that. And through that, I was able to find amazing role models within the industry. And I would set up these meetings and get inspiration from a woman in the actual industry herself. And there’s also things like the Brooke Owens Fellowship, which is for women in STEM and women in aerospace specifically. And that is also just a great way to meet role models. Just even through the application process, and having people review your application, and just meeting different women, and kind of just networking and the importance of networking. I was able to, just even through like LinkedIn, I was able to message the creator of Boom Supersonic, which is a supersonic airplane company right now. And so, I was able to meet up with the lead mechanical engineer on their aircraft, who is a female in STEM. And she is just trailblazing her way through, and super, super interesting.

Host: Very cool. It can be really inspiring to, to have all of these people that tell you about their path. And it’s not necessarily — it’s not necessarily about copying their path. Right? But it’s definitely about finding their own, but they can definitely give you the nudge that, that you need to get you where you want to go. So, Emily, tell me about that nudge that got you to end up working at NASA.

Emily Anderson: Yeah. So, I think that nudge just really came from speaking to these different women and speaking to these different people in the industry. And from that, I was able to believe in myself, and really get inspired to achieve what I wanted to achieve. I kind of, when I applied to NASA at first, I didn’t even really think it was a possibility. Like so many people apply to NASA. And it’s such a competitive program. And I was a little nervous at first just even applying. But speaking to these women, and just really believing in myself, I think that reflected in the interview process, and throughout the entire process of applying at NASA. And so, I really think that that’s what helped inspire me, and wanted me to get that actual position at NASA.

Host: Very cool. Now, Shelita, what about you? What ended up bringing you to, to NASA? With all the different areas that you were exploring, how’d you end up with NASA?

Shelita Hall:Yeah. So, when I actually, you know, joined the Space Medicine Program at Norfolk State, I was like, “well, let me just try to actually do an internship at NASA,” so that I can kind of get the experience of radiation transport. And, you know, kind of see if I can just kind of get my feet wet with space medicine research, and what’s going on actually on Stennis. And so, when I applied, I actually got the position with the chief technologist, but I was actually able to network at LaRC. And I was able to meet different people in the radiation analysis department. And so, that’s how I ended up getting my internship position for the fall. And so, I was just doing some computational analysis for radiation. And so, now I’m just kind of using that work and kind of just, you know, using it all for my Ph.D. research. And it’s just kind of all coming together with the computational analysis, and then the actual space medicine animal research. And so, it just all kind of comes together beautifully. And, like I said, it’s very interdisciplinary. So, I get to meet a lot of different people, and a lot of strong women in the space medicine industry at NASA. Like Emily said, I’ve also, you know, kind of networked on LinkedIn. And I’ve just met so many women at NASA who are also conducting the same like kind of research in the space medicine field, at Ames, at Johnson, at LaRC. And they’re all just very inspiring to me. And it was just very inspiring to just set up a meeting with them, and just talk to them. And they gave me advice on my Ph.D. work, and where I can take my research. And just cool things that I could do to make it better or, you know, what I could do for professional development. So, attending conferences, just kind of gives me like a mentorship kind of relationship with these women. And so, just meeting with them and being able to talk with them, it was very inspiring to me. So…

Host: Very cool. So, tell me about your experience so far, Shelita. Because I think, did you start when, during the pandemic, when everything was remote? So how did you navigate that, and then get to meet some of these inspiring women that, that sort of guided your path through, through NASA?

Shelita Hall:Yeah. At first, I was actually in-person at LaRC. I was in-person up until March. And so as soon as March hit, that’s when I was virtual, and when I was in virtual [inaudible] —

Host: Ah ha.

Shelita Hall:So, yeah, I was actually able to meet people in-person. And I would actually just walk over to the next building and just like meet different people. And then seeing what other cool things they were working on. And I actually went to the radiation analysis like, branch or department in one of the buildings at LaRC on center. And I just kind of met with different people. And I actually met my soon to be, at that time mentor. And he agreed to do an internship with me. And he also knew my Ph.D. advisor. And so, I was able to network in-person. And that’s one thing that I do miss, but I had that experience. And it was really awesome. You know, just the different events that I was able to attend in-person, but I was able to, you know, have that relationship with my mentor in-person. And she was just very inspiring just the way she carried herself. And she was super intelligent. And she was just a really great mentor. And I just, I just really appreciate her for giving me that first opportunity.

Host: Very cool. Now, now Sophia, tell me about your journey to end up at NASA.

Sophia Hahn: Sure. So, my journey to end up at NASA was kind of a surprise a little bit in a way. I had, basically, applied through the intern website, the intern.nasa.gov website, for a few different times, and didn’t quite get it. I had gotten interviewed for a different position and was not selected to go forward for that. So, for me, I was pretty unconfident that I would get, that I would actually get a NASA internship. And so, I joke with my family that it was the best Christmas present I received last year. It was just late December, right around Christmas time, I got an email from my now mentor asking interview for the Prandtl-M project, which the whole long name is Preliminary Research Aerodynamic Design To Land on Mars, but it’s kind of a mouthful. So, I’ll just be calling it Prandtl-M for here on out. So, yeah, the interview happened. And then I got an offer letter. And I was surprised a little bit, because just from the previous rejections, as well as trying for years, and still not quite getting it, but I am so thankful that I did, because, for me, this is the exact kind of thing I want to be working on. It’s the mechanical design of experimental aircraft, essentially. And that is what I’m getting my degrees for, hopefully. So, for me, in my path to NASA, it’s kind of an unexpected one, but I’m so glad to be here, because I’ve always wanted to be here. I’ve always wanted to work for NASA since I was a kid. To me, NASA was the company that was always purely in pursuit of science and innovation, and not necessarily the bottom line. And that, to me, was like the most ideal thing. And this pushing the innovation and pushing kind of the realms of technology that we have now, has always been something that’s important to me, and something that I wanted to do when I grew up back then, for lack of a better way to say it. So, yeah, I’m really excited and really happy. Just kind of stumbled onto a little bit by accident. But, yeah, I’m really happy to be here.

Host: Well, that’s awesome. Now, now that you are here, though, you’ve got your foot in the door for this Prandtl-M, I think is how you pronounced it. Can you tell me more about that project?

Sophia Hahn: Yeah. Yeah. So, it’s one of those backronym-type projects. The Prandtl part is from a famous mathematician named Ludwig Prandtl. He came up with two different lifting-line theories, which are basically the way lift kind of goes over the airplane from or an aerodynamics point of view. Long story short, one of the theories has been used for hundreds of years, like since the Wright brothers sort of thing. And the other theory that he released ten-ish years later, is the one that we’re using. And it’s not very common, because there’s a lot of kind of finetuning with it. You have to know certain features about the aircraft. And for a long time, it was thought impossible. But, recently, with the previous chief scientist Al Bowers, who was the previous chief scientist for Armstrong Flight Research Center, he was able to do the Prandtl-D (Priliminary Research Aerodynamic Design to Lower Drag) project that actually made it work. He found out that that second lifting-line theory was what actually worked for and could actually be much more efficient than most of airplanes. We’re talking like 11% to 15% more efficient. We are basically taking his theoretical work, that he did with the Prandtl-D project, and creating a practical application, which is a glider that will fly on Mars, that we’re hoping that with the new kind of experimental lifting line being more efficient, as well as the less gravity on Mars, we’ll actually be able to have functioning gliders that, hopefully, can travel ranges that our previous rovers, or even the Mars helicopter, could not travel in the same amount of time we did. Like we could go so much farther, so much faster sort of thing.

Host: See, this is absolutely fascinating, because I bet you when your friends are asking, “hey, hey Sophia, what are you doing at NASA?” You’re like, “eh, not a big deal. Just using this theoretical physics theory to figure out how to fly a glider on Mars. What are you up to?” So, I feel like that, that must be some serious bragging rights. But, you know, after you get past that, what’s really interesting to me is what you’re talking about is what NASA is doing, and what you are working on, is pushing the idea of how we understand flight. So that’s sort of a, I mean, it’s a bigger benefit than just figuring out how to figure out gliding on Mars. It sounds like a lot of, there’s a lot of practical stuff that you can pull from there to figure out our knowledge of just how air, how flight works. It sounds like that’s something that you’re on the precipice of.

Sophia Hahn: Yeah, I actually, just yesterday, we had a small kind of session with the students that I’m mentoring for the Robotics Team [inaudible]. And they actually were asking about the project. And it was kind of one of those really fun moments for me as a mentor, because I got a — I’m the only female mentor on the team that I mentored for. So, I kind of got to watch all these students, and especially the female students, right, at seeing me as kind of a female engineer working on these really cool projects. And got to explain the parts that I’m allowed to explain. And that to me — I’m still so happy from that event. Like I’m still thrilled that that happened. But, yeah, so the way we’re doing it is telling my students is we’re eliminating the need for a vertical tail. So, most people will see the vertical tail [inaudible] on the back of like a passenger aircraft. It’s kind of like a little triangle shape, and it’s got a little flap at the end of it. Our theory on lifting completely eliminates that. So that cuts weight on the aircraft. That makes it more efficient. There’s no longer the drag from that. And this is all kind of going back to birth, more or less. Specifically, Al Bowers cites the wandering albatross. But if you look at the lift distribution on their wings, and like their kind of body shape, they don’t have vertical tails, because they don’t need to, because they follow this lifting line sort of thing. And they get to travel the world eight times I believe. Yeah, circle the world, essentially, they fly and [inaudible] circle the world eight times in a given year. So, we’re hoping that kind of going back a little bit, and looking a little bit at nature, and Ludwig Prandtl’s work, that we can completely revolutionize flight in the future, and make it more efficient. Therefore, burning less fuel, making it more green. And, hopefully, help make aviation a little more climate friendly.

Host: See, I’m so inspired by this, Sophia, because you’re talking about, you’re talking about redefining how humanity views something. Right? And, in this case, it’s flight. But another thing I pulled from your story is just how excited you were to, you know, I’m sure during your path to get to NASA, and start working on this stuff, you had a lot of people that inspired you. But it seems like you’re already in that position, where you have, I’ll say a responsibility, right, to inspire others, because you said you’re the only, you’re the only woman, mentor right now. And so, you know, people are looking at you and say, “hey, you look like me. I want to do what you’re doing. I want to be like you.” What’s it like to assume that, that role model status already?

Sophia Hahn: Yeah, it’s definitely a little nerve wracking from time to time. After all, I’m still going through college myself, and still haven’t fully gotten into a full-set career. But I like to see it, especially with mentoring the robotics team, as giving back. For me, my high school robotics experience, and the mentors and the students who were with me on my journey, were the defining, like one of the, if not the most, important defining factor in going into aviation for me. So, if I can even help one student kind of figure out that engineering is what I want to do, or aviation’s what I want to do, that’s always been important to me. I’ve been really fortunate to have a family that emphasizes on giving back or helping others. So, to me, this is the way that kind of I like to help others. And that’s just mentoring, and kind of helping the students grow in their engineering abilities, as well as, just soft skills like leadership or meeting scheduling, and that sort of thing; budgeting even. That, to me, also in turn kind of inspires me a little bit to keep going on my path. And, hopefully, I’ve done more than just inspire one student. But, yeah, my goal every day if I can just inspire one student to keep going with engineering, who’s maybe a little bit on the fence, then I’m doing what I need to be doing.

Host: That is awesome. Emily and Shelita, I want to hear more about some of the stuff you’re doing at NASA as well. Emily, I’ll go over to you first. What are some of the projects you’re working on, now that you’re here?

Emily Anderson: Yeah. So, I spent some time working on the checksum application. So, what a checksum is, is when the spaceship goes into space, the code on that spaceship sometimes runs into bit flips due to radiation. And so, this radiation can turn a one into a zero, or a zero into a one, and then cause issues for the software program. And so, what a checksum does is it relays that information back and is able to identify if that issue, if there is an issue, if there is a bit flip and something goes wrong. And so, these checksums, and these different applications that Goddard has, checksum is the one that I specifically worked on. But Goddard has 12 applications in total. And so, I worked on the checksum application. And what I did was I modified the code to raise it a classification level. So, it was for the Lunar Gateway mission, it needs to be at the highest classification level, because any mission that has humans involved, or any mission that has a budget over a certain number, needs to have Class A software. And so, I made modifications in the code just to actually help raise that classification level. And did testing, and I wrote unit tests and functional tests, to be able to test that code, and make sure that it was able to be verified against the credentials.

Host: See, that’s big, Emily, because I know I’m — you know, we’re working with a lot on the operations side. Part of the reason that a lot of spacecraft, especially the human-rated spacecraft that I’m working with a lot, they have a lot of these redundant systems. Specifically, because of what you’re saying. You know, sometimes you can, they can flip numbers. And, all of a sudden, your data becomes unreliable. So, the way they do that is they have multiple systems. What you’re talking about is making data that’s coming from a spacecraft even more reliable than, than even with these checks and balances that are currently in place. It sounds like you can do it from a software perspective. Which has a lot of, I mean, there’s a lot that we can pull from that making future spacecraft more efficient and, and reliable. Now you don’t have to worry so much on all these different computers doing redundant calculations. It sounds like you can even trust — you can trust your systems even that much more, which really helps us out in spaceflight.

Emily Anderson: Yeah, yeah, it’s a fantastic system.

Host: Very cool. Now, Shelita, Emily is talking about radiation from a software perspective. It sounds like a lot of the stuff you’re working on is radiation/astronauts. Tell me about some of the stuff you’re doing.

Shelita Hall:Yeah. So, basically, with Norfolk State, I’ll be actually doing work with animals, and exposing them to radiation to kind of see what happens to their brain. And then understanding the behavioral consequences as a result. And from these behavioral consequences, we can kind of know what will potentially happen to an astronaut in space. But with this software technology, we’re able to stimulate the central nervous system, and the effects of radiation exposed to it. And we’re able to expose the CNS (central nervous system) to different types of radiation, GCRs (galactic cosmic radiation) and solar particle agents. And from the penetration, we can know what will happen to different components in the central nervous system. And then we can kind of relate this data with the ground studies with the actual animal research. And we can kind of compare and see the different data from two different aspects. And so, right now, actually, at NASA, [inaudible] the different radiation transport software. And I’m just kind of understanding how it works, and the code involved, because I’m not really too experienced with code. So, I just started kind of, you know, with this computational analysis because, you know, my bachelor’s is in chemistry. And I only took like two computer science classes. So, it’s definitely a learning experience. But I wasn’t afraid. I just kind of took it head on. And I’ve been learning two different radiation transport software’s right now. And so, with this, I can kind of compare with the actual animal exposure research. And so, you see different aspects. And from this, you can know the risk involved with long-term spaceflight. You know, how can we keep our astronauts safe? That’s, you know, really important, because we want to bring them back safe. And we want to make sure that the radiation, you know, we have the correct spacesuits to shield. And so, from this research, we’re hoping to promote the correct shielding countermeasures in order to keep the astronauts safe.

Host: What, what I love about each of you is what you’ve described is just some — everything you’re working on, each of you, is hugely impactful to spaceflight, to what we do on Earth. What you’re doing is you’re shaping the future. Each of the things that you’re working on, you’re all shaping the future now. For all those young women out there listening to this podcast, I feel like a lot of them may be thinking, “man, I’m nowhere near as smart as Shelita. There’s, there’s not a chance that I can keep up with that.” But I feel like maybe people have more ability than they think. And maybe, Shelita, you had some obstacles along the way that you had to overcome to get to where you’re working on such cool and innovative things for the future. So, so to, to the women out there listening, and hearing your story, Shelita, thinking, “I don’t know if I could do this,” what advice do you have to them to say, keep going?

Shelita Hall:Yeah, I would definitely just say just to get rid of that mindset from the beginning. Just don’t think that you can’t do it. Just believe in yourself. And, for me, I had to instill that, that mindset. It wasn’t, you know, automatic. I had to believe in myself and believe that just because it looks kind of weird, you know, engineering classes, I can do it. And if anyone else can learn, I can learn, too. And I just kind of took it head on. And I just learned what I could. And I asked questions. I wasn’t afraid to ask questions. And I just kind of got rid of the notion that science and engineering is hard. You know, I just kind of gave myself the mentality like I can learn anything I put my mind to. And that’s what I hope that other young women will do as well. And they would, you know, it’s OK to be uncomfortable. And it doesn’t mean that you’re not smart enough. Just keep going and just keep learning all that, all that you can.

Host: Sophia, same, same question to you. Women that are maybe trying, trying to become pilots, and they want to, want to work on spacecraft, but they — or aircraft rather, but they’re hearing your story. And being like, “man, there’s no way that I can do something like that.” A piece of advice for them?

Sophia Hahn: Yeah. My biggest piece of advice, and something I tell my students all the time, is the knowledge that you have right now does not define your entire career. What matters the most at this moment is do you have passion for what you do? If you do, and like if you really like engineering, and this is something, you really like aviation, and you’re hearing what I’m saying, and it sounds like, “wow, I want to go do that,” in a good way, don’t focus on the fact that maybe your knowledge isn’t fully up to speed. Or maybe it’s great in certain areas or lacking in others. Knowledge will always come. What’s important is that you have the passion, because that’s what drives getting that knowledge. I have seen students, who didn’t even know what a Phillips-head screwdriver was, become the best design students on a robotics team. And be able to create very, very intricate subsystems that require many motors, and lots of moving gears and lots of moving parts, belts, pulleys; the works essentially. And they still only have a high school level education. The knowledge will come, as long as you’re willing to seek it. And you can get to wherever you want, as long as you have the passion and the drive to kind of keep going. And as long as you don’t tell yourself no, because it’s not true. You totally can do it. You’ll be wherever you want to be in the aviation or the aerospace field. And from what I have found, through mine, it is a very welcoming field. So, keep pushing yourself. You’re doing great. Keep going. Take notes. Do well in your classes. Try to find some kind of physical experience, too, whether it’s mentoring a local robotics team, joining — clubs at your school, trying to get internships, whether it be here at NASA or anywhere else. Just really kind of keep pushing yourself. And you’ll be there. You’ll be exactly where you want to be in the end.

Host: That’s awesome. Emily, some advice from you to the young women out there listening.

Emily Anderson: Yeah, definitely. I think Shelita touched on a very, very important topic that she attacked — she started programming. And she started this. And she said she didn’t have too much experience, but she was able to learn that. And I think that that’s really, really key is that no matter what you do, as long as you set your mind to it, you are 100% able to do it. It may have this wrap around it that, I think STEM and I think that engineering, in general, just have this wrap around it that it’s hard and it’s difficult. And that even programming and coding is just so hard. And who could ever do that? But if you set your mind to it, programming and engineering, they’re solving some of the world’s coolest problems right now. Like NASA just 3D printed organs. And they’re sending human life into space. It’s amazing the things that the STEM field is accomplishing. And I think that if you really do — like Sophia and Shelita said, if you really set your mind to it, you’re able to achieve anything. And it’s just so also important to bring your full self to work at all times. You do not need to choose between fashion and makeup, and all of these girly things, and science. You’re able to have both of them. And you don’t need to compromise yourself for anything. Just bringing your full self to work at all times. And you’ll succeed no matter what. And I just really, really think that’s an important topic. We need females in STEM. And so just keep going, and never give up.

Host: I love it. Keep going. Work hard at it. And if, if you’re passionate about something, just go for it, and put the work in. So, so Emily, it seems like a lot of your experiences have led you to, to even, even grander places and different places. And this just goes along with that theme of just keep going. You know, keep diversifying your experience as well. So, tell me about where you are, and some of your hopes and aspirations for the future?

Emily Anderson: So, currently, I’m interning at Tesla in Fremont, California. I’m on the digital experience team here. So just everything tesla.com is what I’ve been working on lately. And so, I’ve really, really enjoyed it so far, but I still have four more semesters of school left. So, two more full years. And I really, really hope to be back at NASA someday. I have aspirations, I’ve always wanted to be an astronaut since I was a little girl. And I still haven’t given up on that dream. So, hopefully, I’m able to achieve that someday. And, hopefully, I’m back at NASA.

Host: That’s awesome, Emily. So, Sophia, same question to you. Some of the things that that you’re aspiring to, what are the some of the next steps for you?

Sophia Hahn: Sure. So, I will basically be doing this internship until the end of summer. After that, I plan to complete my bachelor’s in aerospace engineering. And then go on to earn a master’s in mechanical engineering at Tennessee State University. Kind of looking at a career-wise, I’m hoping to hopefully make it back to NASA, but I’d like to be a project manager working with the mechanical design of experimental aircraft. I really like this idea of pushing kind of the aviation knowledge envelope forward and seeing if we can have kind of the next generation of planes with these new kind of experimental ideas. And my internship with the Prandtl-M team has really solidified that desire. Like I had kind of a guess that I wanted to do more kind of experimental aerodynamics and that sort of thing, and kind of more experimental-style aircraft. And now, I’m fairly, I’m like completely certain in it that this is what I want to do. So, thank you to the Prandtl-M team for kind of helping me solidify that desire. So that’s kind of my academic and career path, hopefully, looking forward.

Host: Very cool. Now, now Shelita, some, some aspirations from you.

Shelita Hall:Yeah. So, I’m hoping to continue the Ph.D. program. And I’m hoping to, you know, continuing on with my space medicine research. And I’ll be, hopefully, working closely with NASA LaRC, with the product that I’m working on. And, in the future, I’m hoping to apply to a Pathways position, so that I can get employed by NASA. And I’m just very excited about the different opportunities that will come available. And I’m just very excited about my research. And I’m hoping to just meet more people and network. And I’m just very excited about the future.

Host: Very cool! You all have a lot of great things that you’ve contributed to so far. And definitely keep pursuing those dreams, just like you are recommending some of our listeners to do, and you’re taking the actions yourself to, to go ahead and pursue. So, so to each of you, Sophia, Shelita, and Emily, thank you so much for coming on Houston We Have a Podcast, and sharing your story, and giving some, some wonderful advice. So, I appreciate your time.

Sophia Hahn: Thank you so much. It’s been really, really fun. It’s been a great pleasure of mine to be here.

Shelita Hall:Thank you so much.

Emily Anderson: Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much. It’s been an honor to help, hopefully, inspire the young female generation into STEM.

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Host: Hey, thanks for sticking around. I had a really fun conversation with Sophia, Shelita and Emily today. I hope you learned something and got inspired by their unique stories to working at NASA. If you want an opportunity to work at NASA, just like these three did, they are all interns. They have a couple opportunities; we have a couple opportunities here at NASA where you can apply. You can go to intern.nasa.gov or pathways.jsc.nasa.gov. Don’t worry about memorizing those or writing those down. Just go to our episode webpage, and you can click on the links there. We’re one of many NASA podcasts telling some of the stories across the whole agency. You can find us, and some of the other NASA podcasts, out at NASA.gov/podcasts. We, Houston We Have a Podcast are on social media. We’re on the NASA Johnson Space Center pages of Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. You can use the hashtag #AskNASA on your favorite platform to submit an idea for the show or ask a question. Just make sure to mention it’s for us at Houston We Have a Podcast. This episode was recorded on June 14th, 2021. Thanks to Alex Perryman, Pat Ryan, Norah Moran, Belinda Pulido, Jennifer Hernandez, Abel Morelos, and Veronica Seyl. And thanks, of course, to the interns for taking the time to come on the show. Give us a rating and feedback on whatever platform you’re listening to us on. And tell us what you think of our podcast. We’ll be back next week.