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The Next Generation of Spaceflight Leaders

Season 1Episode 81Mar 1, 2019

Mohammed Saibu and Juan Carlos Lopez, who are pursuing leadership roles at NASA through a program called FIRST, discuss some of the challenges of leadership and how this program will build successful leaders who will be the ones to put boots on our nearest celestial neighbors. HWHAP Episode 81.

Next Generation of Spaceflight Leaders

“Houston We Have a Podcast” is the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, the home of human spaceflight, stationed in Houston, Texas. We bring space right to you! On this podcast, you’ll learn from some of the brightest minds of America’s space agency as they discuss topics in engineering, science, technology and more. You’ll hear firsthand from astronauts what it’s like to launch atop a rocket, live in space and re-enter the Earth’s atmosphere. And you’ll listen in to the more human side of space as our guests tell stories of behind-the-scenes moments never heard before.

For Episode 81 Mohammed Saibu and Juan Carlos Lopez, who are pursuing leadership roles at NASA through a program called FIRST, discuss some of the challenges of leadership and how this program will build successful leaders who will be the ones to put boots on our nearest celestial neighbors. This episode was recorded on November 20th, 2018.

Click here more information on the NASA FIRST Program.

Houston, we have a podcast

Transcript

Gary Jordan (Host): Houston, We Have a Podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, Episode 81, The Next Generation of Spaceflight Leaders. I’m Gary Jordan and I’ll be your host today. On this podcast we bring in the experts, scientists, engineers, and astronauts, young leaders, all to let you know the coolest information about what’s going on right here at NASA. So if you’re familiar with us, you’ll know that we bring in these super-cool people all the time. A lot of them are considered experts and have been at NASA for most, if not all of their career. But how do you keep NASA going? And, of course, you can pass on this knowledge to newbies like me, but who’s going to lead them? So a different kind of skillset. Maybe more about those soft skills and aspiring others rather than the technical knowledge, or maybe a little bit of both. NASA’s working with young leaders to develop these skills early with a program called “FIRST.” So today we’re talking with Mohammed Saibu and Juan Carlos Lopez. This power duo is very active in the community here at the Johnson Space Center and are part of this program FIRST, learning how to be leaders at NASA even early in their careers.

So we discussed what this program is all about, some of the challenges of leadership, and how this program will build successful leaders that will be the ones to put boots on our nearest celestial neighbors. So with no further delay, let’s jump right ahead to our talk with, Mr. Mohammed Saibu and Mr. Juan Carlos Lopez. Enjoy.

[ Music ]

Host: Mohammed and Juan Carlos, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yeah, thank you for having us, Gary.

Mohammed Saibu: Definitely thanks again, Gary. Good to see you.

Host: Yeah, good to see you. It’s been a while since we did the last podcast. Mohammed and Juan Carlos, welcome.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Thank you.

Host: But what’s cool is that you guys are both relatively young. A little bit into your career. But now what we’re going to talk about is going into this leadership program called FIRST which we’ll sort of get into, but you’re already very much involved in the JSC community, right? What are you guys into now? Mohammed, we’ll start with you.

Mohammed Saibu: So perfectly with me, I’m really focused on young professionals. So Emerge was one of the ERGs I was usually working with and just kind of trying to assist everyone you come in because I know the experience, just as you know the experience, too, like transitioning on from college to professional experience is a big jump.

Host: Yeah.

Mohammed Saibu: So as we have new hires come in, I think so. That’s one thing I would promote to outside, really get involved with the community. It’s going to help you really feel like home there because, of course, leaving college there you always have your family, you friends that you’ve made up, so now you have — you kind of have to repeat the process. You have to find dental insurance, like health insurance [laughter], just the small stuff like that. What’s a good gym?

Host: Yeah.

Mohammed Saibu: So I just tried with the newcomers come in, I was like, hey, guys, you know, saying name is Mohammed. I’ve been here for five year. These are some of the tips and tricks I’ve learned here. And also I — these are some resources that you can really utilize. I was like, don’t think of it specifically, like with the ERGs, it’s specific to race. I was like, there’s an ERG everywhere, and I was like even some of like the Hispanic ERGs or African American Asian ERGs, you meet some very cool people that become friends there. So that’s really one thing I’m big on, just assisting new hires coming in, to transition into the work culture.

Host: You’re saying ERG. You’re saying E-R-G. This is Employer Resource Group. There are pretty much groups here at Johnson Space Center, right, that are — I mean it’s about establishing a community, and especially with the Emerge, right?

Mohammed Saibu: Yeah.

Host: This is new people coming in and the goal is to make everyone just feel comfortable. This is how you live here, right? But you’re part of —

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yeah, I was. Speaking of the Hispanic ERG, I’m a very active member of the Hispanic ERG here at Johnson. We do a lot of educational outreach activities where we go to schools and talk to kids about science and technology, and that’s something that really inspires me about the work that I do here at NASA, the fact that I get to go talk to the students and just, you know, hopefully — yeah, inspire them to become engineers and scientists.

Host: Yeah. Not only the community here you’re getting involved with, but the community, the local community.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Outside, yeah, yeah. Outside, outside NASA, yeah. That’s exciting.

Host: Best story that you have of working with kids and then trying to inspire them about NASA, about spaceflight, and just like their face lighting up. I got a story —

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yeah, I have a little kid that I recently talked to at a educational career fair. His name was Tony. And he came and talked to our people at NASA, at the booth that we had in there. And I asked him, hey, do you want to become an astronaut? And he said, no, not really. I want to be an engineer.

Host: Oh.

Juan Carlos Lopez: So I said, oh, really? What kind of engineer? And he told me that he wanted to design rockets to send astronauts to space. So when I told him that I was an engineer, too, he got so excited. He asked me for a picture and, you know, that was just a really touching memory, a really touching experience.

Host: Yeah. I remember that. It was — I think it was February, 2017. It was when Houston Super Bowl was happening here. And we did a big — we had a big setup downtown for just space flight stuff, and I was — it was the same thing. I was talking to kids coming around, coming to the booth, asking about NASA. And I end up — the topic of Mars came up and I was like, you know — and the kid was probably like 13/14. And I was like, you know it’s about a kid your age right now that’s probably going to land on the mars. Just study math and science. And you should have seen his face. It just lit up and his eyes went wide and his mouth literally dropped. He’s like, are you saying? I’m like, I’m saying. [laughter] Yeah, yeah. Someone your age is going to be the one to land on Mars. And I was like, study math and science. And I was like — I never followed up. I wish there was like a way to follow up after doing events like that just to see like, I wonder how much he’s pursuing math and science now.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yeah. And, honestly, sometimes it’s easy to forget how cool our work is.

Mohammed Saibu: Yeah.

Juan Carlos Lopez: You know? And it’s when you talk to this students and people outside the gates that you really get an appreciation on how incredible NASA is.

Host: Yeah. I love that.

Mohammed Saibu: Yeah, I truly concur with everything I that that Juan said. It’s awesome.

Host: Yeah. Getting involved in the community. I’m sure Emerge does it, too, right?

Mohammed Saibu: Yeah, I think so we’ve done, and just to go off of what Juan said another ERG that I kind of got involved in early in my career was African American Resource Group, and they do a lot of outreach, going to student fairs and just taking just a step higher I think so, talking to college people, people in college who are really stimulated to doing their, even hearing their stories and they get — it’s interesting to me because I always put myself in their shoes. And they talk about how hard it is to work for NASA, what is there? But I think — so I always take a step back and I’ll just like do anything, as long as you put your mindset to it and if you’re really passionate, do that — do the — communicate that in an interview there. And I was like, that’s what people look for. And I was like that’s what separates the good from the great.

Host: Right.

Mohammed Saibu: When you have that drive or someone can feel that drive in a conversation. So I think so — I always get — I love that. I haven’t been fortuitous enough to have as many events to go talk to younger kids, but I think so in just talking to like college people, people in high school, and promoting STEM events there, that’s a lot of things I try to communicate, just bring your best self in whatever you do, and I was like, your dreams will come true because I was like — I think so everyone working here at NASA, even the three of us, we can all truly say the same thing.

Host: Mohammed, I work at NASA right now and I’m inspired to work at NASA from what you’re saying. This is what I’m talking about. See, this is why I’m kind of excited to talk to both of you guys is because not only are you in great things, right, you’re actually working in human spaceflight, but you’re actively going out and doing things, extracurricular things, right? It kind of reminds me of college. Not only doing your classes, but joining a group on the side and doing some extra stuff. But you’re doing that to try to better the community and to spread this word about NASA, but also to better yourselves. And that’s what I wanted to get in today, was this FIRST Program. This is about young leaders, right? I’m sure you guys were leaders, even in college and even before that. But let’s talk about FIRST. What’s this program, this FIRST Program?

Mohammed Saibu: I’ll let Juan tackle this.

Juan Carlos Lopez: No, no well it stands for the NASA Foundations of Influence, Relationships, Success, and Teamwork.

Host: Of course that’s an acronym.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yeah, of course it is

Mohammed Saibu: Exactly. That’s why I had to let him tackle it. [laughter]

Juan Carlos Lopez: It wouldn’t be a NASA program if it didn’t have an acronym? Yeah. So I think the program itself is focused on self-development and self-awareness. You know, it’s about understanding who you are, where you came from, how that has shaped you in a way in understanding how you can become a better person and a better leader within NASA and within your community, your family. The program is also focused on increasing our awareness on how NASA operates as an agency. So we get to shadow senior leaders from different NASA centers. We have coaches and mentors that are kind of helping us develop those skills and, you know, understanding how NASA works. And we also get to build relationships with our cohort members, you know. That program has 40 members from all the different NASA centers so we really make — we get to build strong connections and networks across the different NASA centers.

Host: That’s huge. A lot of it sounds like exposure, right? You’re sitting next to someone with the experience of managing, but then just sort of figuring it out, not just from the localized Johnson Space Center of Houston, Texas’ perspective, but you’re getting the whole NASA perspective.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yeah.

Host: That’s pretty big. Are you guys traveling a lot?

Mohammed Saibu: Yeah, so we do travel [laughter]. So if we do — I don’t know if you can say a lot, but I think so. The durations are longer. So we go to four NASA centers. So this year, I think — so they differ each year — but this year it was Wallops, then we went to Glenn. We’re going to KSC in December, and we’re going to graduate from Headquarters [laughter]. Exactly.

Host: All right.

Mohammed Saibu: And it’s a week. Each trip is a week. Each trip that we go there, we’re normally TDY for a week —

Host: Yeah.

Mohammed Saibu: — just building — to just go off of what Juan said, building those relationships there. And not only understanding NASA. But I think so, Juan summarized the program perfectly, but one thing I personally like to emphasize, and I think so Juan can agree to, building those relationships with people from different NASA centers is so key and FIRST really provides you a great opportunity for self-reflection or self-development there, just seeing how you are perceived by others that you might not think about. Like you said perfectly, you’re going outside that localized JSC view now and now you’re interacting with people from different centers who might be research centers, who are building rockets like the Marshall Spaceflight. So it’s like you’re coming with a different perspective every time, so seeing that in personally is just a really big thing. Really cool.

Host: So what kind of perspective have you realized that maybe we have, that you — as someone’s pointed out to you? Oh, Johnson Space Center tends to be blank [laughter]. Arrogant? I don’t know [laughter]. I don’t know based on —

Mohammed Saibu: I don’t know. I think that we’re thinking the same thing. We’re just trying to put it into words.

Juan Carlos Lopez: We’re really mission-focused given that we have like the Mission Control Center —

Host: That makes sense.

Juan Carlos Lopez: We tend to, you know, kind of lead a lot of the aspects of, you know, integrate stuff.

Host: Okay.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yeah, yeah.

Host: Okay.

Juan Carlos Lopez: That just comes from the culture here at Johnson, you know at Mission Control.

Host: I see. So what about other centers? What are they sort of focused on? I guess something that they’re doing that you didn’t even realize, oh, that’s something that’s happening and is equally, you know, as important to NASA. I guess Glenn would be a good one. Glenn research.

Mohammed Saibu: Oh, yeah. Perfect. I think so. You read it straight off my mind. So, going to Glenn and — like I said, we got the opportunity to shadow senior leaders there, and in shadowing the senior leaders, the amount of research and I think so — they do a lot of the backbone or the unrecognized work that we don’t give credit to. They are so big into it. I think so. They test a lot of our vehicles. They do a lot of — they work with a lot of commercial partners that I didn’t have any clue that we even had partnerships with there. So sitting there and going through their day-to-day, a day-to-day, of course, research what they’re paying for. So a lot of time at JSC, we just think about the mission, the different programs we’re supporting there, but we don’t think about all of the back work that got us here. There are — I think so Glenn has a lot of responsibility in that end, so I commend them. And I had such a deep respect after going there for a week and shadowing senior leaders and seeing their day-to-day operations.

Host: Hmm. So I guess — so, leading is a big part of this, right? Understand shadowing these leaders and understand how they’re leading. What are you learning? Are you just learning how things operate? Are you learning how to operate them? Are you learning soft skills? What’s the FIRST program really exposing you to?

Juan Carlos Lopez: I think it’s everything, you know?

Host: Okay.

Juan Carlos Lopez: I’ve been able to sit in on technical meetings and conversations regarding, for example, Orion and Deep Space Gateway, and some of the challenges that teams are going through to make sure that the vehicle is going to be compatible — Orion is going to be compatible with DSG. But in addition to that, you also get to get first-hand experience and expose to how these leaders communicate with others, how they connect with other people. So I think we do get the technical and the interpersonal skills by shadowing.

Host: That’s huge. Is it a different skillset to understand what it takes to lead and what it takes to actually do the engineering and the technical stuff?

Juan Carlos Lopez: I think so. I mean, I come from an engineering group and I spend most of my day sitting on my computer, analyzing data, and writing code, you know? I don’t really get a lot of human interaction at times. And, you know, I think it is important to be able to clearly communicate your ideas, to be able to engage people from different perspectives, and kind of get them onboard your vision and, you know, get them working together. So I do believe that it’s a different type of skillset.

Host: Do you find that they’re kind of different management styles as you go to different locations? Because maybe the management style is influenced by the culture.

Mohammed Saibu: I agree. I think so. Definitely culture plays a big difference, and that’s something we even learn in the program. That’s one of the first steps not even to leadership but just finding how you fit there, understand the culture, understand the people and how go there because it’s not impossible but someone coming from SJC with a certain mindset and type of leadership transitioning to more for research-based center is going to have, have to transition or just change your mindset now because you’re dealing with a different mind of people. They have a different set of priorities. So you have to kind of understand the context you’re inserting yourself in there because that’s only going to help you become better, not only as a leader — as a person talking to people. That’s one thing I’ve seen with the leadership in shadowing not only at JAC, at other centers there. It’s just people understand how they’re perceived their — those interpersonal skills and just communicating there where if I see — I don’t need to throw out names, but just leadership there people talk to each other differently because they know what’s important to talk to. They know what is in focus. What to target there. And that’s just like so — it’s been awesome to me.

But I think to the one common thing that I’ve seen that really resonates to me personally is humility. Leaders know their — great leaders, I think so that, of course, we have so many — they understand they don’t have all the answers. And it’s the reason why we work as a team there, and I think, so that’s something NASA is great for. We understand. We try to foster that teamship and that relationship there to know, to promote people, not to feel like you have to be quiet or like he’s the boss. He runs everything. But everyone has a voice there.

Host: Yeah. It’s the difference that you’re even saying, you know, how leaders learn about their surrounds. That’s how you were saying it. You weren’t saying how they come in and manage it, you know. Make it run like a well-oiled machine. But learn what the culture is, understand the needs of the folks that you’re managing, and then hone in on the skills to understand that culture and communicate whatever needs to be done in a way that resonates with that particular person.

Mohammed Saibu: You perfectly phrased it.

Host: Yeah. Maybe I should be a part of this program now [laughter].

Mohammed Saibu: I think that you should.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Host: I’m not saying I have the answers but I understand what it takes to learn, to understand that humility is a big part of it. You know, if you just come in and want to — you know, your way or the highway, who’s going to follow you on that journey, you know? So that’s a huge part of it. I’m guessing, as you’re going from center to center, you’re picking out individuals and maybe some qualities of those individuals that you’re kind of piecing together. Ooh, I like that. Ooh, I want to make sure I avoid that. Something like that. Is that part of it, too, kind of? Kind of just not only what they’re teaching you, but just observing and teaching yourself.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mohammed Saibu: No, I complete agree with you. I think so a lot of times, so with the shadowing thing, it’s not assigned to us. So we pick out people that we think are good leaders there. We send them a personal email, say, hey, this is the introduction of who I am there. This is why I’m seeking to shadow you. This is what I’m trying to gain. Do you think it’s a good opportunity between me and you? Well, that’s how I perceive it there. I just tell him what I’m trying to gain, why am I doing this, who I am, and stuff like that. And you make that connection there. And those people say, okay, perfect. They set a date and time there and you come — you kind of — of course you come to the Center and you shadow there. So you get the opportunity to figure out who do you want to choose, why do you want to do it with them, and kind of gain their — and it gives you a different perspective because you kind of — you have some type of overview, high level overview of like who you think they are. But seeing them and shadowing them in person — it’s a completely different experience.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Mm-hmm.

Host: Yeah. Because I don’t think there’s a single management style that is universal or best. It’s definitely one of those weird kind of case-by-case, place-by-place sort of things is being a good manager. That’s ultimately what this is, right? The FIRST Program is to understand how to be an effective leader so that ultimately you can become one yourselves.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yeah, yeah and what works for you essentially.

Host: Ok. Yeah. Identify.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yeah, yeah. So trying to tailor — yeah, mm-hmm.

Host: Okay. So do you understand — I guess, you guys just based on, you know, us talking, even the beginning are already very involved. I assumed, even in college you were pretty involved with things, and going through those extracurricular activities and leading them. So, I guess, what have you guys done in the past? Mohammed, we’ll start with you. In college or even here, to be a leader, just within these groups.

Mohammed Saibu: So one thing, if we’re going back, I’ll take a step back and I’ll go to college.

Host: Okay.

Mohammed Saibu: I’ll go to college. And one thing, one leadership opportunity I think, so, in just starting that journey there, was undergraduate research, undergraduate research. I know it would seem — I think so intuitively like how could you be a leader in undergraduate research? The professor wants everything. But I was lucky to be researching under a professor who really promoted that innovative, like pushed, I want you to find the answer, solution-seekers, as you could say there. So it was more of less of a dictatorship, I think, so that sometimes you get this screening from undergraduate research. But he said, this is a problem we’re trying to focus, this is the contact material. But now I want you to help me find a solution there. Like this is what people have done before. So he kind of gave me the tools I needed to, but he said I want you to take ownership of this, take ownership of this and like when you come present it, boy, just stuff like that. This is stuff you have done to position yourself to find the answer there. So I think — so he was really instrumental in just kind of building that into me where he was like, don’t try to find something. Find a given, repeated solution, but it was like you make the solution. Take ownership of it and work there. So that was something that was really big. I think so post doing that it kind of motivated me to even pass the word — so it started my passion.

Host: Hmm.

Mohammed Saibu: And pushing my passion there. And just taking ownership of that project in there and just knowing that I did it there. And I promote — I do that in everything else. Like I played sports in college there, so I always try to do — I always try to take the extra mile and not even pass football and just — football was the sport I played for more context.

Host: Nice.

Mohammed Saibu: But just taking it to steady to just tell people like, hey, look. We are not going to tend to fail, but I was like we need to focus on like that’s the next step. Like do you need help? I was always an engineer, so it was like do you need help studying? I can lead the study group. So we can help people there. And those small steps are, I think — sort of the big — the small steps, they make a big impact down the road there, because I still keep in contact with those people —

Host: Oh cool.

Mohammed Saibu: — who have like — yeah. Some have went to on to fail and some others are just working great jobs there. And those small things, they always tell me when we joke around, it’s like I remember when you helped me out in Statistics. I was like, boy, that saved my life and we laugh about it now, but I think so those are the key things people appreciate because it’s like I recognize you for taking that extra effort, from staying up with me to help me to do this.

Host: Yeah.

Mohammed Saibu: Or even talking to people I researched with that were just like your positive attitude, your passion to what you did even though, like, you didn’t study work, made a difference to help me. And every time I hear though, it keeps me going. It keep me going, pushing to the next level.

Host: I think that’s one of the most powerful doors that you can open is, hey, here’s a leadership position. I want you to own it and make it your own. I think that’s one of the greatest ways to actually learn how to be a good leader is to just do it and figuring out along the way. I’ve always — you’re just failing — little failures along the way, understanding those sorts of things are, I think, some of the greatest teachers. I remember same deal. I was part of an organization. I did marketing in school, so I was part of a marketing organization. You know, worked my way up to be one of the leaders in communication. I had two people under me. One of them was focused on internal communication, one on external communication. Totally different styles of managing. One of them was completely laissez faire, just let her do her thing and she will produce great results. Don’t try to tweak it, don’t try to do anything. Just let her do it. And it was that — I had to do that sort of style for her. But for the other person, I had to be on top of making sure that she was following through, that I was giving her direction, that I was giving her praise and — along the way.

And it was just so interesting that even my own management style couldn’t be consistent within one place. You know, it definitely varied from person to person. It was one of the greatest teachers, right? I didn’t have someone telling me to do this. It was just — in order to be successful that was what was required of that experience. It was interesting. Juan Carlos, what about you?

Juan Carlos Lopez: No, no I had a similar experience actually when I started working here at Johnson. I was really fortunate to be elected Chair of the Hispanic ERG, and I served as Chair for a couple of years. But when I was elected, I just saw a lot of potential in that group to use that group to help NASA reach out to emerging space markets in Latin America, you know. I knew that Mexico had recently created a Space Agency and there were multiple Latin American countries that were doing the same, so I just had this vision, like, hey, let’s use the group to reach out, right, and get people connected. I didn’t know how to do it [laughter]. And I just — like you were saying. And I tried to surround myself with people that had more experience, that were more aware about NASA and the different strategic objectives that the Agency had, and we were able to put a plan together and through those two years that I was the leader of the group, we were able to establish communications with the Mexican Space Agency that eventually led to a couple of Space Act Agreements. And we’re currently working on a payload. We’re going to be sending the first Mexican satellite to the ISS.

Host: All right.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yeah, yeah. So it’s like, you know, those things that started with a vision and then they just translating to an actual product, a tangible, you know. You can see.

Host: Yeah, but it was about, you know, putting yourself in a situation where maybe you didn’t have the expertise. But what was the next step? And for you the next step was to surround yourself with more information, with people who knew how to get you where you needed to go. An excellent example of good management. If you don’t know, you know, don’t try to fake your way through it. Surround yourself with the people who know. That was an excellent move.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yeah, yeah, so, you learn a lot from the experience, and that helps you getting to programs like FIRST and —

Host: Yeah [laughter].

Mohammed Saibu: That’s what we try, we’re try to work off it [laughter].

Host: That’s right. I guess it was pretty selective, right? You had to submit an application or something?

Juan Carlos Lopez: Mm-hmm.

Mohammed Saibu: Yeah. So it’s really selective. You submit a application and basically a questionnaire is — then I think so the follow-up step is to have an interview, I think. So that’s another big one. So I think so throughout the whole Center everyone basically take hundreds of — thousands of applications. I don’t knew.

Host: Whew.

Mohammed Saibu: Then they pick a handful of people to come interview with them. And then — I think, so we only pick four people, four people out of the Johnson Space Center.

Host: All right.

Mohammed Saibu: Out of everyone. So —

Host: I’m talking to half of the FIRST Program right here [laughter]. This is great [laughter].

Juan Carlos Lopez: The Johnson people, yeah.

Mohammed Saibu: The Johnson people, yeah. From the Johnson people. So —

Juan Carlos Lopez: Okay.

Mohammed Saibu: — we got lucky enough to be part of that half.

Host: That is awesome. So when you’re shadowing some of these leaders, and understanding what it takes to be a good leader, what sorts of things have opened up to you about leadership here in NASA? What extra things that you didn’t — you wouldn’t have known otherwise? But now you’re sitting next to these leaders, understanding how they operate. What are they doing that maybe you didn’t know before — the breadth of their responsibilities?

Juan Carlos Lopez: Personally I feel that all the people that I’ve shadowed are really competent from a technical perspective. You know, they know their technical concepts. And that kind of makes sense, you know? Everything that we do in NASA kind of revolves around the technology that our engineers develop. So you really need people that have an appreciation on how that technology works. So I found that really eye opening. What it takes to become a leader at NASA — I think it’s the technical competence for sure.

Mohammed Saibu: Oh, yeah. Just even going off of Juan said, technical competence’s a really a big thing. One thing I saw in there that really stuck out to me was recognition of others. Because after you go through these technical leaders, these guys are smart. They know what they’re doing back and forth. But they always give recognition. When someone says something, it was like, oh, I really love your idea. Just use something that simple is, I think — they don’t say “but,” but I know we’ve learned this, tool Instead of saying but, the say, “in addition to that, have you thought about this approach there?” So they recognize people for what they do there. I’ve seen it a lot, and I didn’t think about it because I learned this in FIRST, but post shadowing — I saw that happen a lot there. That recognition just make people feel empowered in what they did there. That was something I really saw and like, wow, this is pretty neat. And it’s —

Host: Wow.

Mohammed Saibu: — I’m actually seeing what I learned in real life, so.

Host: Yeah. Kind of gives you respect for the leaders a little bit because of the — you have to not only be the extreme technical knowledge, as you were saying, Juan Carlos, just — you have to know — you have to know what you’re talking about from a technical perspective. But you have to have these subtle soft skills, right?

Juan Carlos Lopez: Mm-hmm.

Mohammed Saibu: Yeah.

Host: But the praising thing. Not just making sure that you’re doing it in a right way. So it’s balancing those two, what I think are very different skills — the technical side and the soft skill side. So what source of soft skills do you guys recognize that you guys have to work on?

Mohammed Saibu: Well, I can start. I can start on mine, I think. So mine is exactly what I’m saying — empowerment of others and self-recognition, because sometimes I know even with my position, I’m so focused on the objective, the mission, focused there. And I’m like cool, we need to do this, this, this, and plan it out there.

Host: Right.

Mohammed Saibu: But now, going through the program, and just human life there, taking that step back and understand how am I being perceived by others? How am I communication? How am I making — I’m using — I’ll put Juan an example, how’s that? How am I making Juan feel with these actions I’m imposing there? Have I kind of empowered him? Does he feel motivated to follow lead, let me lead there?

Juan Carlos Lopez: I do Mo, I do [laughter].

Mohammed Saibu: So that’s something I know I’ve been trying to just work on there, that holistic aspect on me and my growth there, and just conciseness in my information.

Juan Carlos Lopez: I think, to me, it’s being — acknowledging that I tend to focus on the big picture, and I tend to ignore the day-to-day kind of activities that are happening, you know? So I’ve been trying to work on that, you know. Paying more attention to what’s — what my team is going through, you know. Kind of solving challenges that may arise in one day, you know, instead of just focusing on what’s going to happen a year from now, you know?

Host: The end goal.

Juan Carlos Lopez: The end goal, yeah. I feel like I’m really focused on that.

Mohammed Saibu: Opposite but the same thing, yeah.

Host: Yeah. I get that, too. You have to — I guess part of being a good leader might be just identifying our own strengths. But the thing about leading is that you’re surrounded by other people, right? So making sure that you’re surrounded by people who can maybe fill in those gaps. If you’re the person that knows, that really is focused on the goal and will make sure that everyone else is focused on the goal, maybe someone else can focus on the details.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughter] No, no, exactly. And you know through FIRST we’ve done a few assessments like, you know, where we get feedback from our colleagues and then we get a kind of a chart that tells us what our values are and how high or low we score in each value. And mine — I score really high on visionary or like vision, right? And there’s pros and cons about that specific thing, right? Like what I was saying, that a visionary doesn’t focus too much the day-to-day stuff.

Host: Yeah, yeah.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yeah, right? It’s about acknowledging that, just like you were saying, and try to get people that will complement your other aspects of, you know, the project.

Mohammed Saibu: And just to add on to that. It’s funny, too, when you fill out those surveys there, and you get the results back, and they’re so accurate [laughter] to who you are. So you always get a good giggle. I know I did when I read it there and I was like, wow, yep, this is me.

Host: Yeah. I did the same exact thing. We did something here in our organization to find our strengths, similar thing, is just to find your strengths and understand what strengths you teammates had so that you can sort of exploit those strengths. And that was the idea, was if you were strong at that, that person should be the one to do it. It was a different way of thinking about it versus improving your weaknesses. It was honing your strengths and focusing on that. And mine was definitely — and I couldn’t tell if this was — if this was who I was or if it was the demands of the job. But I was more of an executioner. So I was the person that — if I was given a task, I needed to get it done, which is true in my job. And I don’t know if the results were skewed in a way because my job requires me to get it done. So it’s like, if you get a task, you’re going to get it done. And I click yeah, five stars over there, right? So I don’t know. Maybe it’s the demands of the job, and maybe with this FIRST Program, the demands and here — what I was lacking on was, surprise, surprise, interpersonal skills, which is funny because I’m doing a podcast right now, trying to talk to you.

But what’s funny is like empowering others and getting others to do things, something I need to focus on because if I get a task, I’m going to do it myself. Everyone stay out of my way. Not exactly the best way to do it, right? But I need to at least prove those skills, and maybe the FIRST Program — becoming a leader requires some more of those skills, so you guys are understanding the gaps that are your — not your strengths right now because the demands of your job are required otherwise. But maybe as you become a leader, you understand some of those and you’re trying to fill them.

Mohammed Saibu: No, I agree with you. I think so. That self-awareness is really big there. To just understand — because sometimes you get caught up into it. You focus on your strengths so much that you even forget like you have any weaknesses, and you think you’re perfect there. But just having that understanding that you have to grow like humility. I think so. Then you get humility in yourself. And just like you have areas that you’re not so strong in and sometimes your greatest strength is your biggest weakness.

Host: Hmm.

Mohammed Saibu: And if you don’t know it — and it’s exactly to you, like someone — I’ll use you as an example, Gary, to what you said. You’re an executioner. You get stuff done. And, you know, people may love that, but then again, your lack of interpersonal skills might come off to someone else. It was okay, cool. He gets everything done, but he can’t interact with people.

Host: Right. Yeah. You can’t put him on a team. He’s just going to get everyone aggravated.

Mohammed Saibu: So I just used that as a simple example of stuff like that. So —

Host: Yeah. And I understand that. And I think that’s huge is to — like you’re saying, identify those gaps because not so that you can ignore them. But maybe so that you can improve on them. Maybe just a little bit, yeah.

Mohammed Saibu: I completely agree.

Host: Because, you know, I guess if I — that’s my thing. If I get a task, I’m going to go through with it. But I’m not going to empower — come on, guys. Let’s all do it together. Like, nah, I got to get it done. Come on. [laughter]

Mohammed Saibu: Believe me, I know. I know exactly what mindset you come from because I fall into that trap [laughter].

Host: So what other things, I guess, are you understanding about leadership, because I know you’re talking about the technical skills, you’re talking about the interpersonal skills. But I feel like there’s more. I feel like there’s a budget side of things, right, making sure that the team itself is running smoothly on an efficient budget. There’s the staffing part of it, too, the human resources, right? You, obviously you’re surrounding yourself with people who are going to get the job done, but then how do you do that, right, staffing? Make sure that people are sticking around. New hires are coming in, passing on the knowledge, making sure. So what else is part of the breadth of leadership?

Juan Carlos Lopez: I mean, for example, you were mentioning budgets, right?

Host: Yeah.

Juan Carlos Lopez: That’s a big thing. Obviously leaders, especially if you’re managing a big organization like NASA, they have to be aware of the finances of the organization, right? I’ve also found that leaders are really aware of their surroundings. Politics specifically.

Host: Interesting.

Juan Carlos Lopez: You know, they have to be aware of the political climate and how that — those politics may affect their organization. And, you know, develop a strategy that will either mitigate that or like will take advantage of a specific political climate. So I believe, you know, some of the most efficient leaders have to be well rounded in those aspects, and understand how they may impact their organization.

Mohammed Saibu: Yeah. I think so, Juan summarized it perfectly. And I think one keyword that he said there is strategic. You really have to be very strategic in how you place yourself, not only from politics, but to — some of the example you gave — the budgeting department, the staffing there. You have to understand what’s your environment.

Host: Mm-hmm.

Mohammed Saibu: What is important? What is not important there? Of course, our past is what makes NASA there. But you also have to understand that we are growing. We have to keep up in order to continue to be leaders in the space industry. So you have to start to make those efforts to build on — build on different areas, not only technically, but also in your staffing. And build on leaders like us. I think all three of us here. Because that’s like we are the future there. And I think — so NASA’s most valuable asset, of course, in addition to all of the millions of stuff we’ve done, is the people. I think so. It’s the people there.

Host: Oh, it’s huge.

Mohammed Saibu: I think so. That’s what NASA invests on. So that strategic element there is really important. That’s something I see that great leaders really do there.

Host: Yeah.

Mohammed Saibu: Not only understanding the mission, but also what it takes to accomplish that.

Host: Yeah. It kind of goes back to your point about, you know, understand it’s a goal. You know, the end goal. And then whatever it takes, whatever skills you need to accomplish that goal, that’s what you really need to be successful in that leadership position. Do you find that the strongest leaders have a lot of the same qualities, or do you find that they might have completely opposite qualities, but they are more tuned for the environment that they’re in? These are really tough questions, by the way. I’m not, I’m not, I’m not making it easy on you [laughter].

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mohammed Saibu: That’s why I say – I’m like looking at the sky [laughter]. That’s a good one.

Juan Carlos Lopez: I mean NASA’s facing a lot of challenges, right, like, you know, you were mentioning about investing on the next generation, right? The average age, I think, of a NASA employee right now is around 50, 51 or so. So, you know, a lot of the employees that we currently have are going to be retiring in the next five/10 years, right? So we really need to be creative at the way that we are training and engaging this next generation of engineers and scientists and leaders, right?

Host: Mm-hmm.

Juan Carlos Lopez: And I found that that’s a quality that a lot of leaders have, is just creativity and innovation, you know. You really have to think of really out-of-the-box solutions to the problems that you’re facing.

Host: Right.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yeah.

Host: It’s about taking — maybe it’s about these out-of-the-box solutions, but maybe it comes with a strong knowledge of what things have worked in the past, and how can you creatively turn that to your situation? And how can you understand, okay, this — a similar situation like this occurs — it’s not quite the same. Maybe if I tweak this one thing, maybe it can be the thing that works. But it’s the, I guess the ability kind of bouncing off this idea of creativity and the ability to adapt, adapt to the current situation, and make it work for you.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yeah. I mean the space industry’s seen a lot of — it’s in a state of transition right now, you know. We’re trying to empower the private sector, you know, work with companies like Boeing and SpaceX —

Host: Right.

Juan Carlos Lopez: — while at the same time, you know, we’re trying to develop our next projects. And, you know, we really have to adapt, just like you were saying, to these changes and find creative solutions.

Host: You know, you’re talking about other companies — Boeing, SpaceX. That makes me think about the FIRST Program. You said you’re going around NASA, shadowing differing leaders. Are there other leaders coming in? Are there leaders from outside, maybe from a different perspective, other than NASA that can improve —

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yes, actually we’re encouraged to also shadow people outside of NASA.

Host: Oh, cool.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yeah, yeah. And some of us have taken advantage of that. But, in addition, we have a series of coaches that come from multiple organizations outside of NASA, so we really — we’ve been able to learn from their perspectives and their experiences in this organizations, yeah.

Host: Hmm. What are you finding? What kind of tips and tricks about maybe more — maybe towards the spectrum of humility, or maybe balancing humility with a little bit of assertion, and how do you balance those things?

Mohammed Saibu: So finding that balance I think — so that’s something that a lot of us struggle with. Well I think some of the people just from different NASA Centers. What is that balance in everything you do, right?

Host: Yeah.

Mohammed Saibu: Like what is the difference between being a service and being humbled there, because sometimes if you’re too humble, you’re just going to get ran over, like no one’s going to listen to you.

Host: Right.

Mohammed Saibu: And stuff like that. But, if you’re too assertive, no one wants to follow you. How are you going to — So how do you strike that good balance there? So hearing from people externally, of course, they have a different mindset. But you can still figure — pull out the core tendencies that you see common in every leader. It’s like that openness, that adaptiveness there. And I thinks the one thing I’ve learned there, just with those external factors, and they all — the external coaches all say the same thing. The first step is learning your team. Understanding your environment and the culture you’re in there. That’s the first step if you’re doing anything. What are you getting the project and stuff like that. Who are you working with? What are their tendencies? What do they like? What do they not like? Stuff like that. Not to say that you have to favor them or cater to them. But just having — understanding the context when you make a decision. How can that impact them and stuff like that. Because that’s what separates people, I think, separates the good from the great. And I just — we’re not speaking as far as — now I’m taking a step back from the leader, just for people-wise there. Just showing recognition to others.

That’s one thing I think, so I’ve really like about the FIRST Program is that sometimes, you know, when you go into the Program — I say this now, because I was one of the people there in the FIRST where like, you focus so much like I want to be a leader. I’m a leader. This type-A type person [laughter]. Boom, boom, boom. But they make you take a step back. I think for the first step, work on becoming your authentic self as a person because once you’re true to that now, becoming a leader — it’s easy. It’s just a walk in the park. Because if you’re your true self, and you understand who that is now, it’s going to be easy for you to encourage others to do the same for a common cause there. So that’s something I really appreciated with the FIRST Program in NASA there. And just for them to take the step back and say, okay, cool. Being a leader’s awesome. You all, like you got selected here. You’re going to become a leader one day. I promise [laughter]. But let’s work on your self-awareness, your self-reflection there and becoming your best self there. And once you’ve acknowledged that or you understand that, the leadership will come along with it.

Host: I love that. Your best self. You know, the best form of leadership of yourself is not necessarily that Type A assertive personality, the one that you think about when you think about leaders. But it’s the best version of yourself, whatever that may be. Maybe it is Type A, maybe it’s something else. But it’s understanding who you are and how you can best exploit those skills.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yeah. And then once you have that understanding, it’s finding where within NASA you can maximize your contributions, you know, based on who you are, you know —

Host: Yeah.

Juan Carlos Lopez: — and what skills you bring to the table.

Host: Yeah. It’s — yeah. Who’s the best version of yourself and where’s the best — where’s the place that you can best put those skills?

Juan Carlos Lopez: Exactly.

Host: Oh, that’s important.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Mm-hmm.

Host: You know what’s — I sense a huge amount of passion from both of you guys, right? I mean, obviously you’re both leaders, even just doing the extracurricular stuff here, getting selected for — I’m talking to half of the FIRST Program here. I didn’t realize that. But you guys are obviously — you have a lot of passion for what you do and what you want to achieve. But here’s a question. You guys really, really want to be leaders. That’s why you’re part of this right? Why, why do you want — why do you want to be leaders?

Mohammed Saibu: So like I’ll let Juan, think of this [laughter] — I’ll just go for this. I will say that my answer has changed. So, of course, my answer’s changed from before just going to the program. Of course, you know, before — I’ll tell you before — I wanted to make an impact to the organization, leave my footprint there. But I think so going through the program, meeting — and I kid you not — this is what I’m saying, meeting people like Juan and stuff like that. Hearing his perspective and just going through the things there. It came back to where I just said, I want to become my best self, because I know once I’m at my best self, my best capability, I’m going to — I want to become a positive inspiration for others to do the same. And I think so — that will be my impact. And so if I can answer why I want to be a leader, that’s what — it’s more me leveraging all of my capabilities, everything I’ve learned there, to become my best self, to inspire others around the Center and the Agency to do the same thing, because I think so looking back to reflecting back to the leaders in our generation, they have all done the same thing. You hear the people like Gene Kranz. I was like his professional technical excellence inspires others who like, okay cool, I want to be just like that because he was always at his best self.

Host: That’s right. Yeah. I love that. It’s about improving yourself, but impacting not only, you know, having the greatest possible impact on NASA and knowing that what you’re doing is having a lot of influence on the direction, but also on the people within, you know? Because like you said, Gene Kranz — he not only inspired NASA and helped us to get on the moon, but people are inspired by him, and reflect — even my dad, actually, uses Gene Kranz regularly in training exercises to influence other leaders to become great leaders. He is an example of great leadership for something that has nothing to do with space, but it’s just —

Mohammed Saibu: Oh wow.

Host: — that idea of great leadership.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Mm-hmm.

Host: That’s fantastic. Juan Carlos, I’d be nervous to follow that.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Yeah, yeah, I know [laughter].

Mohammed Saibu: Juan is pretty good, believe me. Don’t tempt him.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Let me tell you a story.

Host: All right.

Juan Carlos Lopez: No, you know, recently a colleague of mine received his 55-year of service award.

Host: Whoa.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Fifty-five years working at NASA. And to honor him, my branch decided to dress up as Apollo Era Engineers from the ’60s in our short-sleeved shirts and our skinny ties and our glasses, our pocket protectors. And we were actually — when he received the award, he called us on stage to go with him, all my group. And I remember looking around and feeling really happy and fortunate to be able to work with these people, right? Being able to talk to my colleague and have lunch with him, right, and be able to go to his desk and ask him a question about this docking procedure that he developed for the Apollo Program, right from the ’60s. So I felt really happy. And then at the same time I realized the responsibility that I had, given that the people that will come after me won’t have that opportunity, right? So to me, it’s about becoming a leader to make sure that I can document and capture this knowledge and pass it to the next generations that will come after me. So I think that’s what motivated me to apply to FIRST and go through this path.

Host: I see. It’s like a sense of a calling, a sense of responsibility.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Mm-hmm.

Host: You see it. You’re surrounded — you’re up on the stage, you’re surrounded by people who are passionate about celebrating with this guy who has been at NASA for his entire career, right, 55 years. Maybe he did something beforehand. But 55 years is still a lot of time.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Mm-hmm.

Host: But to understand that not only has the passing on his, you know, knowledge, but everyone dressed up. Everyone’s doing it for him. They’re celebrating with him. He has had an impact on the people around him. So much so that they decided to dress up [laughter].

Mohammed Saibu: No, seriously.

Host: Yeah, yeah. I’m thinking about who in the office I would dress up for — no I’m just kidding [laughter]. This is awesome. Any final thoughts before we wrap up because I — this has been a — I wanted to know about FIRST. But really leadership is something that I find fascinating because it’s so ambiguous. You know, leadership is not — it is a science, but it’s a molding adaptive science. You have to make sure that whatever techniques you put forward are the best for the situation that you need to be in. And I found it absolutely fascinating. So I was asking a lot of hard, introspective questions for you guys [laughter].

Mohammed Saibu: You asked some tough ones.

Host: Yeah, yeah. So, final thoughts before we break off.

Mohammed Saibu: Well, okay. I think so. If you find the thoughts that I think so. And just for people even thinking about FIRST and leadership, I think that you phrased it perfectly. It’s so ambiguous because there’s no — there’s no guidebook. And I think so sometimes going in, oh, it’s like, okay, cool. This is what I have to do to be a leader and then think so. A lot of people fall with the millennials, fall into that trap [laughter] when you think okay cool. If I can get this leaders work done in half the time, I’m just going to be in the same position. But going through FIRST, and I think so building these experience this. And I would even say taking a step back to my job here as a Flight Controller and the people I’m surrounded by has really helped me to grow. And self-awareness and always the humbleness to just know that you can always grow, and learning from your failure. Treat your failure just as the same aspect that you treat your accomplishments. I think that that’s something I’ve really learned. And just treating everything as a learning opportunity.

And I use that. And I’ve learned that through the program, and just even with some of these leaders here now. And don’t get — because sometimes I get hung up on my failures and – there but just talking, shadowing to these amazing leaders there and they tell you what they’ve grown, how they’ve grown from being someone in my position to now there and it is so just humbling. And eye awaken just hearing that, so I know the self-growth, the constant pursuit of self-growth regardless what aspect that you pursue this in. It’s something I will always say, inspire for others to always do and continue to do.

Juan Carlos Lopez: I would like to extend an invitation to the next generation to really — to feel empowered and to be proactive. I think, as I said before, the space industry’s in a big transition right now. And I feel that we should — we need to make sure that our perspective as young engineers, as people of under-represented minorities even, that our experience and our perspective is taken into consideration as we develop these new business models for the space industry, right? So I would like to encourage people to just get out there, learn, you know, make sure that you’re making an impact within your community, your city, your country, and yeah, become a leader.

Host: I love it. Mohammed and Juan Carlos, thank you so much for coming on the show. I loved this conversation. I feel like I’m surrounded by so much positivity and so much passion from you guys. But it’s inspiring me not only to better myself, which I think is a good calling, because ultimately we’ll better others, but then also to make sure that what you’re doing has its impact on the community and the business around you, just changing. That’s the calling, right?

Mohammed Saibu: Yeah.

Host: It seems like you guys want to change the world [laughter] and I —

Mohammed Saibu: One step at a time.

Host: Yeah, one step at a time. I love it. Guys, thank so much.

Juan Carlos Lopez: Thank you.

Mohammed Saibu: Thanks a lot, Gary.

[Music]

Host: Hey, thanks for sticking around. So today we talked with Mohammed Saibu and Juan Carlos Lopez about this new program FIRST, but really got into some introspective questions about leadership just in general. It was an awesome conversation. I actually was a student with some of these guys, so it was a pleasure to have them on the podcast today. You could check out some of the other NASA podcasts we have — On a Mission, from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Invisible Network, about some of the space communications, Gravity Assist, Rocket Ranch NASA in Silicon Valley. We have a lot of them now. But I just want you to know that if you’re listening to this and you were one of the first to start listening to us, thank you. So on social media you can follow us, The NASA Johnson Space Center, some of the things we’re doing here, and some of the programs that some of the employee resource groups are doing. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram for some of those. If you have a question about the show, question for some of our guests, or you want to dedicate an entire episode to some topic that we haven’t covered yet, use the #AskNASA. Make sure to mention Houston, We Have a Podcast. So this episode was recorded on November 20th, the 20th anniversary of the International Space Station, 2018.

Thanks to Alex Perryman and Pat Ryan, Norah Moran, and of course to Mohammed Saibu and Juan Carlos Lopez for volunteering to come on the show and talk about this great program. We’ll see you next week.