Tim Dunn: I am the launch director for the Launch Services Program, and so it sounds like a pretty cool job…
Joshua Santora (Host): It does.
Tim Dunn: It is.
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Launch Countdown Sequence: EGS Program Chief Engineer. Verify no constraints to launch.
EGS Chief Engineer team has no constraints.
I copy that. You are clear to launch.
Five, four, three, two, one, and lift-off.
All clear. Now passing through max Q, maximum dynamic pressure.
Welcome to space.
Amanda Griffin: Welcome to the rocket ranch. I’m Amanda Griffin. Earlier this month, our host, Joshua Santora sat down with two Launch Services Program power houses: Mic Woltman and Tim Dunn. Between the two of them, I’m pretty sure they could power a rocket with their charisma alone, AND they have nearly 4 decades of Launch Services experience between them to boot. Since the recording of this interview, the ICESat-2 mission successfully launched on the last Delta II, and the Launch Services Program is now 5 for 5 on successful missions this year, with a 6th still to come—needless to say, these guys are pretty busy—so let’s get on with the rocket roundup.
Joshua Santora (Host):Today I am in the booth, and joined by Tim Dunn and Mic Woltman, of NASA’s Launch Services Program. Uh, good-good day, gentlemen. I wanna let you guys introduce yourselves briefly. Tell us a little bit about yourselves and kinda what your role is for NASA.
Tim Dunn: Well, Joshua, thanks for having us today. Uh, my name’s Tim Dunn. And I am the Launch Director for the Launch Services Program. And so, sounds like a pretty cool job.
Host: It does.
Tim Dunn: It is.
[laughter]
Mic Woltman: O-one of the coolest.
Tim Dunn: Gosh, Mic, it’s been almost 18 years.
Mic Woltman: Eight– almost 18 for both of us, Tim.
Tim Dunn: Yeah.
Mic Woltman: We s– we started at, uh, Launch Services program about the same time, same year. But I think it was in 2000– ’99, ’00.
Tim Dunn: Yep.
Mic Woltman: Uh, we both joined NASA’s Launch Services Program. Uh, ironically, we both joined in the Electrical Avionics branch, and a couple years in that branch, we both moved over and became Vehicle Systems Engineers. And, uh, just recently, probably within the last five years, we kinda split our ways. Tim went to the Launch Manager’s Office. And I went to, uh, the Fleet Systems Management area, uh, there. Uh, for myself, I’m Mic Woltman. I’m the, uh, Chief of Fleet Systems and Integration, in the program. Uh, my branch is in charge of all the system engineering for the launch vehicles. Another cool job. Not quite as cool as the Launch Manager–
Tim Dunn: Oh, it’s pretty cool, buddy.
Mic Woltman: But it’s pretty cool–
Tim Dunn: Like, oh yeah.
Mic Woltman: –’cause we get to do all the engineering and-and assessments of all the launch vehicles that, uh, Launch Services Program works with.
Host: So you guys are both with the Launch Services Program, or LSP. Uh, and you guys, I would describe you guys as kinda the unsung heroes of NASA and space flight, for two decades now. I’m expecting that people are surprised to hear you’ve been around for 20 years. Because my expectation is people would say, “Well, I’ve heard of the Shuttle Program. I’ve heard of, maybe, SLS. I’ve heard of SpaceX and Virgin Galactic and Boeing, and all these other companies that are out there. LSP– what? Who are you, and what do you do?” So-so gimme an overview of, like, what do you guys do, as a program?
Mic Woltman: So I would say, as a program that’s named Launch Services Program, we have only been around since 1998, so this is our 20th year. However, the heritage of LSP really dates back into the, uh, late ’50s and ’60s.
Tim Dunn: Yeah, absolutely.
Mic Woltman: So our predecessor organization that was located here at Kennedy Space Center was called NASA Expendable Launch Vehicles.
Tim Dunn: –Launch Vehicles.
Host: Okay.
Tim Dunn: ELV.
Mic Woltman: So not a real jazzy name. We needed to– we needed to tighten that up.
Host: Sure.
Mic Woltman: And then we had, uh– we had a lot of expertise in Expendable Launch Vehicles that were located at Goddard Space Flight Center. And at the time, uh, Lewis–
Tim Dunn: Lewis, right.
Mic Woltman: –Flight Center.
Tim Dunn: Which is now Glenn.
Mic Woltman:Glenn, right.
Mic Woltman: So, in 1998, NASA, as an agency, co-located all of that expertise in expendable launch vehicles here at Kennedy Space Center, and gave us the-the new-branded name of Launch Services Program. So what we do–
Tim Dunn: Right.
Mic Woltman: Uh, in a– in just very short amount of time, if I could summarize it, it would be, we match up the needs of spacecraft with the right size of the rocket.
Tim Dunn: Yeah.
Mic Woltman: So small spacecraft, doin’ low Earth orbit activity, small rocket.
Tim Dunn:And we don’t just have one rocket. We-we find what’s best needed for the spacecraft customer, to get them where they need. And if that requires an Atlas V, we do that. If that requires a Delta II, we do that. Pegasus or, uh, Falcon 9, or a Falcon 9 Heavy, Delta IV Heavy, we have those all available to us to choose from, as Launch Services Program. We have expertise in all those vehicles, working with our contractors on those. We-we-we assess all that and determine what’s needed. So you could– you could kinda say we broker, um, right?
Host: Okay.
Tim Dunn: We’re the– we’re-we’re NASA’s bridge to space–
Host: Sure.
Tim Dunn: If you will.
Host: Yeah, love it.
Mic Woltman: Um, with our spacecraft customer, uh, providing them a-a ride. Now, what’s unique about that, and, uh, we can talk a little bit about this, is, compared to all the other programs people have heard about– Shuttle, SLS, all these– Launch Services Program, we work with private contractors, uh, who build rockets. So the United Launch Alliances, the Northrop Grumman innovation systems.
Tim Dunn: SpaceX Technologies
Mic Woltman: SpaceX Technologies. Um, you know, and they-they actually own and build and have done a lot of the design of these rockets. Although some of the technology and stuff’s been around for many, many years, they build these rockets. We then work with them to make sure we have the right rocket for the right mission, to make mission success. And a lot of us, as you heard from Tim and I– Tim started back with McDonnell Douglas, on the Delta. Myself, with GD Lockheed, on Atlas. We have a lot of background in those type of things. And we came to NASA to help do that. So that’s one of the big differences that you– probably why people didn’t know about Launch Services Program early on, when Shuttle was flying and stuff, was– is we are kind of brokering that with our private contractors to get– to get NASA’s missions on orbit.
Tim Dunn: And one good thing that, uh, we like to tout– for the taxpayers out there–
Mic Woltman: Absolutely.
Tim Dunn: –is that because we have this–
Mic Woltman: Or those that will be paying taxes.
Tim Dunn:Yes, we have this stable of rockets in our catalogue. And so we’re able to compete the– our needs against these multiple commercial providers–
Host: Awesome.
Tim Dunn: –and thus, get the best, uh, product and price–
Host: Awesome.
Tim Dunn: –for the American taxpayer.
Mic Woltman:Yeah, and what’s-what’s, uh, unique about that is, is bein’ rocket engineers that we are, um– I’m probably dating myself here, but– all of us have a poster of all of our favorite rockets. [laughter] Uh, you know, that are-are in our offices, and things like that. But, uh, you know, we kinda have that-that centerfold picture, if you will, taped up in our office of-of what our favorites are.
Tim Dunn: Yes, it’s true.
Mic Woltman: It’s true. It’s there.
Host: That makes you guys sound really nerdy and geeky. Like, you know that, right? Like, I just wanna, like–
Tim Dunn: Uh, like we are?
Mic Woltman: Like we are, yeah. We-we have no qualms about telling you that we are. Um–
Host: That’s good. That’s good.
Mic Woltman: You know? Um–
Host: Own it, man.
Mic Woltman: Um, our-our– uh– our Program Manager, uh, Amanda Mitskevich, uh, we just recently did some work, and she was telling somebody that, uh, you know, “if you really wanna see my folks and how passionate about it they are– how they are about their jobs, just go ask ’em what their hobbies are when they leave work.”
Host: Yeah.
Mic Woltman: You know, they work on rockets all day long.
Host:Yeah.
Mic Woltman:And they love it. But then they leave work, and go ask ’em what they do. A lot of us go play golf. A lot of us do model rockets. A lot of us do engineering things. We work with outreach. It’s just what we like to do.
Host:Cool.
Mic Woltman: We, uh– yes, we know we’re nerdy, and we love rockets.
Host: So you guys– did you guys grow up as NASA or space kids? Or is that something that really, like, it didn’t happen until you got close to that launch?
Mic Woltman:So I guess I would say, uh, what Tim and I have learned, working with each oth– each other over the years is, uh– and you can jump in here– is, we actually had very similar, uh, ideals and, uh, dreams, growing up. Uh, one of my favorite shows growing up was, uh, “Star Trek.”
Host: “Star Trek,” awesome.
Mic Woltman:The original. Unfortunately, uh, you will hear, uh, Tim wanted to be a certain character. [laughter] Uh, I believe his name was, uh, Captain Kirk.
Tim Dunn: Captain Kirk– who didn’t wanna be Captain Kirk?
Host:That’s a good question.
Mic Woltman: Well-well, that was me. I wanted to be Scotty. [laughter] Uh, so– [laughter] So, I think it worked out great. ‘Cause I wanted to do engineering. Tim became the Launch Manager. You know, he runs the Launch Team–
Host: Destiny– it’s destiny.
Mic Woltman: –has kept on it– so but yeah, we both loved “Star Trek.”
Tim Dunn: Yep.
Mic Woltman: Um, model–
Tim Dunn: Model rockets.
Mic Woltman: Model rockets, uh, which, by the way, we still do today, with students and outreach and stuff. Uh, when we get asked, you can’t keep us away from doing either air rockets or model rockets. Tim and I love to go out and do those still, even as we are still youngsters at heart.
Host: Cool. Very cool.
Mic Woltman:So, um– so yeah, we had a lot of the same things growin’ up that-that led us to this job.
Tim Dunn: Really neat job. Uh, so, a little bit about myself. Uh, I was born and raised in Alabama– small town. Uh, went to school at the University of Alabama, got an engineering degree. The Air Force, uh, offered to pay for my schooling, so I owed them a few years. I went off and I flew satellites with the United States Air Force for a number of years. Air Force was really good to me. Uh, after that really cool first assignment, uh, flying satellites– uh, GPS satellites, by the way– uh, I got to go back to graduate school, got a graduate degree in orbital mechanics and, uh, the physics of space science. And I parlayed that into an assignment here, in Florida, at, uh, the Kennedy Space Center and Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. I was on an Air Force launch crew. Uh, and then I– once you get launch in your blood, Mic, what happens?
Mic Woltman: Ab-absolutely. It stays in your blood, Tim. Stays there.
Tim Dunn:So I couldn’t leave Brevard County. I couldn’t leave Kennedy Space Center and Cape Canaveral. And, uh, here I am. I was very fortunate to get a follow-on, uh, job offer from McDonnell Douglas. Did a little bit of work with the Delta II rocket.
Mic Woltman: Um, I grew up, actually, here in Florida, and kinda bounced around a little bit, but ended up in Tennessee, uh, with my dad traveling the southeast area. So I did most of my stuff there in-in Tennessee. Uh, went to Tennessee Technological University for my, uh, electrical engineering degree. Uh, started my Master’s in Engineering Management and Electrical at the University of Tennessee. Go Vols. Sorry about the Alabama there. Um, and then came to Florida, and finished that up here, uh, at UCF. So a little bit of a mixture in college life. But, uh, you know, enjoyed my engineering time there. Uh, a lot like Tim, who went in the Air Force, I came right out of college and went to work for the Department of Energy, uh, in Tennessee, designing, uh, guidance chips for, uh, submarine missiles. Uh, and then I got picked up by, uh, General Dynamics, uh, Martin Marietta, Lockheed Martin, that whole merger, uh, after Shuttle, uh, Challenger, and started working at Complex 36 here at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. And like Tim said, once you get that first launch in your blood, uh, you wanna do that. And so I did. Um, and fortunate enough, we’re still launching rockets, still lovin’ it, workin’ with the people we love, and, uh, doin’ what we dream of every day.
Tim Dunn: So very similar career paths, as you can see.
Mic Woltman: Yeah.
Tim Dunn: Although Mic does wear that color of orange to the often–
Mic Woltman: Oh.
Tim Dunn: –office just a little bit. And I wear that much more palatable crimson–
Mic Woltman:Yeah, crimson red, yeah, yeah. We-we have a fun time with our SEC Football. Um, uh, when Tim and I started workin’ together in LSP in 2000, we-we kinda found that bond that, you know, we had– even though approached this from different, uh, tracks, if you will, or different ways, uh, we came to the same job of what we love to do, and still love to do today.
Tim Dunn: Yes, absolutely.
Host: Yeah, yeah. That’s awesome. Uh, so no humans for Launch Services Program, as-as-as part of a spacecraft, correct?
Tim Dunn: Correct.
Host: But pretty much every– or– I guess, barring a few that flew on Shuttle, every NASA science mission, since the inception of the program in ’99– ’98, is all LSP. Is that accurate?
Tim Dunn: Eh, I would say, about 95%, 98%.
Mic Woltman: Yeah.
Host:Okay.
Tim Dunn:There are some occasional, um, missions that will fly as rideshare on maybe an Air Force launch, or a national reconnaissance launch. Uh, some have flown as rideshare on Soyuz, uh, missions, and are then attached to the International Space Station. But certainly, anything that’s large and is doing big science, either here in Earth orbit, or going interplanetary, you can bet there was an LSP stamp on it, if it’s launched in the last 20 years.
Mic Woltman: Yes.
Host: Awesome.
Tim Dunn: Yeah.
Host: So tell me about, kind of– so obviously, you have a finite number of rockets available as your ride. There’s not an exponential number out there. So what’s the landscape looked like, as far as the options that you’ve had, historically? And are we seeing a change now? It feels like there’s a growing market in the– in the commercial world.
Mic Woltman:Absolutely, a growing market. And-and again, LSP is, uh, I would say, out front in, uh, looking at the market. And some of our venture class are next. Uh, some of our new competitors are– or emerging rockets that are coming up, uh, in– uh, that you hear out there, um, LSP is looking at those and working with them. We-we are al-always trying to strategically think ahead, of what’s the next best thing for NASA? You know, our science missions. So people have probably seen Blue Origin, you know? Or, um–
Host: If they haven’t, they will soon.
Mic Woltman: Yeah, or they will soon, yeah. And, uh– or, uh, Rocket, uh– Rocket Labs.
Tim Dunn: Rocket Labs.
Mic Woltman: Right, and LauncherOne.
Tim Dunn: Right, right. Firefly.
Mic Woltman: Firefly. Uh, and we’re working with these companies, um, to understand their rockets, to look at how they’re doing business. And, um, and eventually, maybe get them in as part of our catalogue. Uh, but you gotta start somewhere. And we have a lot of stuff coming down the pipe. A lot like, uh, people know SpaceX, right?
Host:Sure.
Mic Woltman:Uh, when SpaceX first came on the scene, um– which I can’t believe has now been almost 10, 11 years?
Tim Dunn:Gosh.
Mic Woltman:Something like that?
Tim Dunn: I think, uh, 16 years now, since–
Mic Woltman: Oh, it’s been a long time.
Tim Dunn: –2002, I think, was when they started.
Mic Woltman: But we think of them as just starting out, right? But they– when they first started out, we got involved w them, and following their early launches and-and looking at them. And then eventually, SpaceX became one of the rockets we had available for our-our customer. So– I mean, I think we’re always out there, looking at the market, and creating new opportunities.
Host: Yeah.
Tim Dunn: Yeah, I think historically, uh, kinda as Mic and I were coming up through the ’80s and early ’90s, uh, there was generally like, uh, smaller rockets, um, some medium rockets, and then the bigger rockets. So Mic and I kinda grew up as we-we talked about. There was Pegasus– that’s been around since, uh, I guess, uh– was that late ’80s?
Mic Woltman: Late ’80s, yeah.
Tim Dunn: Early ’90s. Uh, and that’s a very small market. And then, Delta II, uh, was in that kinda medium class. Atlas, and then the big rockets were Titan IV, and then Space Shuttle.
Mic Woltman:Yes, yeah.
Tim Dunn: So now–
Mic Woltman:And-and so we got to see the evolution of Atlas V and Delta IV. That-that design was during our time–
Tim Dunn: Right.
Mic Woltman:–to-to meet some bigger payloads.
Tim Dunn: Right.
Mic Woltman: W-when Titan went away.
Tim Dunn: So, yeah.
Mic Woltman: So those were kind of our stable while we were growin’ up.
Tim Dunn: Yeah. So we were able to kinda see Titan be retired, but Lockheed Martin grow the Atlas II, at the time, into the Atlas III. And then now, the Atlas V, which has become just an absolute, uh, gold standard in launching right now–
Mic Woltman:And-and–
Tim Dunn:–for large spacecrafts.
Mic Woltman: And we got to see, um– you know, I just thought about this, is we get– we got to see companies who– you know, he worked for McDonnell Douglas. I worked for Lockheed Martin. Um, and-and you got to see these companies get together, also, and form– in this case– United Launch Alliance. So you had two rocket companies who got together and created one, and kinda merged technologies and-and rockets together to create another family, right? And they’re even moving forward with the Vulcan Rocket that’s comin’ out, their new design. And Northrop Grumman started with, um, their small Pegasus. They built an Antares vehicle that we-we have and look at. And they’re now looking at another vehicle, called, uh–
Tim Dunn:A larger–
Mic Woltman: Omega.
Tim Dunn: Omega, yeah. Larger rocket there. So LSP–
Mic Woltman:So the market is continuing to grow.
Tim Dunn:And as Mic said, you know, we keep, uh, building relationships with all of these emerging, uh, launch service and rocket providers, and look forward to, uh, that, uh, first launch for Blue Origin here, in a few years.
Mic Woltman:I’m actually going back, a little history-wise. I’m e– I’m excited about that one, ’cause, uh, they’re launching– gonna be launchin’ off of Complex, uh, 36.
Host:Okay, which you mentioned earlier.
Mic Woltman:Uh, which-which is where I started my career, launching Atlas rockets, which, uh, got, uh, decommissioned and Blue Origin moved in and started rebuilding. And, uh, to that point also, um, back, uh, just recently, July 12th of 2018, um, Complex, uh– Space Launch Complex 17, uh, was taken down, where Delta IIs launched out of, uh, for many, many years. And now that’s look– that’s being repurposed by another launch company, um–
Tim Dunn:Right, correct.
Mic Woltman:–to do. So it’s exciting for Tim and I to see some of these changes, and how the market evolves, uh, from there.
Host: Big-big year, anniversary year for you all. Um, congratulations to the program and to you guys.
Tim Dunn:Thank you.
Mic Woltman: Thank you, yeah.
Tim Dunn: And obviously, a huge year. I don’t know that there’s ever been a year with this many launches this close together. Uh, talk a little bit about, kinda, this year for you guys as a program.
Mic Woltman:Well, I’m gonna– I’m gonna jump in real quick. ‘Cause I’ll let Tim talk about the year. But I will say, it’s an exciting year for us. It’s our 20th anniversary. We’re so happy to be here. Um, and for all the years we’ve been with the program, this is one of the busiest years we have. And I’ll let you talk about that.
Tim Dunn:So for just a moment, let me kinda summarize 2018. And then I wanna go on– Joshua, I’m not sure how much time you have, ’cause I can talk for a long time, at multitude–
Mic Woltman:Uh, we both– we-we could talk all rockets if you want, Josh.
Host:Yeah, yeah.
Tim Dunn:But, uh– what–
Host: We got a couple things I wanna get to.
Tim Dunn: What’s exciting–
Host:So let’s not go too long.
Tim Dunn:What’s exciting about 2018 is that we’re launching on six different rocket configurations.
Host: Yeah.
Mic Woltman: So we’re launching on a couple of Atlas V configurations. We mentioned Falcon 9 launch tests. We’re launching on Pegasus. Uh, we’re launching on the Delta IV Heavy. And finally, uh, next up for us is the Delta II.
Tim Dunn:Yeah, so Mic and I are both individually blessed to be in the positions that we are.
Mic Woltman:Absolutely. Absolutely, Tim.
Tim Dunn:And we absolutely love our jobs. But I would say, our program, Launch Services Program here at Kennedy Space Center, I mean, we’re blessed to have the job that the government has entrusted to us.
Mic Woltman:Yeah, we’re-we’re a family. I-I refer to it sometimes as a dysfunctional family. But we’re still– but we’re still a family.
Tim Dunn:Absolutely.
Host:A very successful dysfunctional family.
Mic Woltman:Absolutely. We-we are. We love workin’ with everybody we have. So we are. Tim’s right. We’re blessed to be where we’re at.
Tim Dunn:Yep. So through our 20-year history, we’ve had very busy years. And, uh, we may have had a year or two as busy as this year. But 2018 is particularly busy for us. Six launches this year. Uh, we’re very fortunate. Uh, here we are. And, uh, we’ve had four of our six launches–
Mic Woltman: Right.
Tim Dunn: –successfully occurred. Uh, a lotta tremendous amount of work have gone into, uh, those four launches.
Mic Woltman:Uh, and a couple historic ones, too. I mean, uh–
Tim Dunn: Yeah, very historic.
Mic Woltman: Uh, that–
Host:I wanna caveat, for a second, that we’ve only attempted four so far. So we have four successful out of four attempts.
Mic Woltman:Well, four at– we’re-we’re–
Host:So two-two to go.
Mic Woltman: We’re at–
Tim Dunn: So four out of four, with two more to go.
Mic Woltman:Yeah, so you’re-you’re right. I-I wouldn’t say “attempted.” We actually launched four. [laughter]
Host:That-that’s–
Mic Woltman:So–
Host: I just wanna make sure people don’t think– they know that like, we-we only launched four of the six, like–
Mic Woltman: No, no, no, no. Yeah.
Host: –that’s ’cause we’ve only tried to launch the four so far.
Mic Woltman:And hope– and hopefully we’re gonna talk about the other two, but what I was saying, historic year for us too. Tim-Tim and I like to talk about is-is one in particular, starting off the year, uh, was our, uh, GOES-R Satellite, which was a follow-up–
Tim Dunn:You mean GOES-S, yes.
Mic Woltman: I mean GOES-S, you’re right, which was a follow-on to GOES-R that we had done the year before, which is the new weather satellite, uh, first of its kind, bringing all kinds of data back for the weather and scientists. And then InSight, which was a very historic, uh, launch for us. It was our first Mars, uh, mission off of the West Coast, out of Vandenberg Air Force Base. And then, uh, recently, uh–
Tim Dunn: Well, we had the test launch in April.
Mic Woltman: Well, that’s true. That’s true.
Tim Dunn:Uh, we launched for the second time, as a program, off of a Falcon 9.
Mic Woltman:Falcon 9.
Host:Awesome.
Tim Dunn:TESS, which is a really cool satellite that’s out there in space right now, looking for other Earth-like planets. So–
Host: The-the sequel to Kepler?
Tim Dunn: Absolutely.
Host:A awesome mission.
Tim Dunn: Yes, yes.
Mic Woltman:Yes.
Host:So do some homework. There’s so cool science out there, happening right now, right?
Tim Dunn:And then the one– and then the one we just launched, which was a lot of work for the team, and is so-so–
Mic Woltman:A tremendous amount of work.
Tim Dunn:–so proud of the program, how much effort was put in by everybody.
Host: And why-why was that so hard?
Tim Dunn:Oh, man.
Host: What rocket was that?
Tim Dunn:That was a Delta IV Heavy.
Mic Woltman: Heavy– emphasis on Heavy.
Host: The first one for LSP, correct?
Tim Dunn: First one for LSP, uh, Launch Services Program. Uh, Heavy mission. And, uh, we launched a-a satellite, Parker Solar Probe, n-named after Dr. Eugene Parker, who, uh– first time NASA’s ever done that, is named a satellite after somebody who’s still living. He was here for the launch, and so excited to see that go. But that was a historic mission, too–
Mic Woltman: Historic.
Tim Dunn: –’cause it’s on its way to the sun.
Mic Woltman:Yep. Mission that’s going to, quote, “Touch the Sun.”
Tim Dunn:Touch the sun, yeah. So we’re very excited about that. But let’s talk for a moment about Delta IV Heavy. Our first, uh, launch as a program on that rocket.
Mic Woltman: Yeah, it was.
Tim Dunn: Huge rocket. It’s like, i-it’s hard to describe how big this rocket is. And, uh, the-the incredible team that United Launch Alliance has that-that has put together, designed, and prepares that rocket for launch.
Mic Woltman:Yeah, it is. I mean, you think about it compared to some of the other rockets in our stable, right? Uh, Delta IV Heavy has three common booster cores.
Tim Dunn: Yep.
Mic Woltman: So there’s– there’s the extra work that has to go in there, and integrating three cores together to lift off from Earth at the exact same time.
Tim Dunn: Right, yeah, three cores. So think of three rockets–
Mic Woltman: Rockets, tied together.
Tim Dunn:–sitting side by side, tied together.
Mic Woltman: Yep.
Tim Dunn:On the launchpad, as the first stage.
Mic Woltman: Each one with its own engine, an RS-68A Engine that, uh, provides a lot of power to get out of Earth’s atmosphere. Um, but yeah, like Tim said, that– trying to integrate all that together, which is just the first stage, right? And what we– when we call it “first stage,” that’s just the part of the rocket that we use to get out of Earth’s atmosphere. It’s, uh– it’s just the first basic part. The– in our case, the bottom.
Host: Lots of power.
Mic Woltman:Lots of power. Uh, provide us that velocity and speed to-to leave Earth’s orbit. And then, of course, uh, we have a second stage, which is sitting on top of that first stage, which we refer to as a booster. Uh, but the second stage is a small, uh, motor. And not really small for Delta IV– I shouldn’t say that, right? It’s actually a pretty large, uh, Delta cryogenic, separate– second stage, which uses high-performance, uh, fuels, and, uh– to get the, uh, spacecraft on its way, uh, once it’s into its intermediate orbit. And then a mission-unique thing, a thing we did specifically for Delta IV Heavy, was we added a third-stage solid rocket motor.
Tim Dunn: Third stage, which we don’t fly many third stages. But this, uh, solid rocket motor that we’ve had get heritage with, uh, Northrop Grumman, uh, designed and developed this third stage.
Mic Woltman: Right.
Tim Dunn: And that was the-the final push that Park Solar Probe needed–
Mic Woltman: Yep.
Tim Dunn: –to get it on that intersecting orbit with the sun.
Mic Woltman: So incredible mission. Uh, you were saying, do your homework on some of the others.
Host:Yeah, yeah.
Mic Woltman:Uh, I’m sure a lot of people out there that are listening to us today have, uh-uh, seen that in the news. And I would say, go check that out. ‘Cause it’s a real exciting mission, 60 years in the making, uh, to-to do something like this, to get this close to the sun.
Tim Dunn:Yeah.
Host:Yeah, we covered a-a good bit of that content with Nicky Fox, Dr. Nicky Fox, in one of our previous episodes.
Mic Woltman:Yeah. Oh, she is so exciting.
Host:So, you should catch that. She was great.
Tim Dunn:Nicky is terrific. Absolutely.
Host:Now, I-I wanna make sure we touch on these last two, so–
Mic Woltman:Yes.
Host: Still to come, we have, uh– we have the final Delta II mission, the little brother, I’ll call it, of the Delta IV. And then the ICON, onboard of Pegasus. So give us a real quick kinda– a-a snapshot of what those two launches look like.
Mic Woltman: Well, I’m gonna let Tim– I-I’m gonna do Pegasus first. Because, uh, as you’ve said, the Delta II is our final Delta II launch. And, uh, both of us have a lot of history with the Delta II. But Tim has, uh– you heard from his background, when he came in the Air Force–
Host:Yeah, he mentioned it very early on.
Mic Woltman: –early on. Tim has a tremendous amount of that. And this will be an emotional, uh– emotional rocket launch for him. And so, I’ll let him talk to the Delta II. But to correct you just a moment, when you said, “little brother of Delta IV–“
[laughter]
–I-I– and Tim may agree or disagree, I don’t know. But I would say, actually, I think, uh, Delta IV was the evolved little brother–
Host:Ah, all right.
Mic Woltman:–of uh–
Host:Yeah.
Mic Woltman:He might be a little bigger, and a little more stout–
Host:Okay.
Mic Woltman:But Delta IV was the evolved little brother from Delta II.
Tim Dunn:Yeah, and if you– if you draw all the family tree in a certain way, you might call Delta IV the grandchild of Delta II.
Host:Okay.
Mic Woltman:Yeah, exactly.
Host: Okay, all right.
Mic Woltman: But-but on that note, I’ll talk Pegasus really quick. Uh, uh, ICON mission, uh, which is our Ionosphere, uh, mission that’s coming up– and it will be our last mission of the year, uh– is launching on a Pegasus XL launch vehicle, which is a unique airdrop vehicle that we actually mount to the bottom of a modified L-1011 aircraft and airplane.
Host:Which is a– more or less, a commercial–
Mic Woltman:It-it was.
Host:A commercial plane.
Mic Woltman: It was a commercial plane. Um, you know, for us, Josh, us older guys, we remember the L-1011. For you–
Host: I don’t know what you’re talking about. I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Mic Woltman:For you, I would compare that to, you know, a-a-a– the new Boeing, you know, 767, or–
Host:Oh, I know what that means.
Mic Woltman:Right, right.
Host: Ah, yes.
Mic Woltman:But-but the L-1011 was a mighty plane, wide-bodied plane, that was used for transporting folks all over the world back in its day. But Northrop Grumman Innovation Systems took a, uh, an L-1011 and modified it, to be able to put this Pegasus XL rocket under the belly of the plane. Uh, the plane actually is called Stargazer. And so Stargazer takes Pegasus. And, uh, we lift off. We go to 39,000 feet. And once we’re at 39,000 feet and Tim, as Launch Manager, and the launch team give the go for launch, we drop the, uh, L– We drop the Pegasus. Five seconds later, it auto-ignites itself and heads off into space, to deliver ICON on its way for its science. So we’re really excited about that mission. Um, it’s– we always like working with Pegasus. It’s a– it’s a– as Tim likes to say, it’s my smaller brother of, uh– um–
Host:So-so real quick, I wanna ask you two quick questions about that mission and the Pegasus, in general.
Mic Woltman:Yeah.
Host:How big is the Pegasus compared to that commercial plane? Just to give people a-a feeling for how big it is? And why launch from an airplane? Like, that seems like a really weird thing. Why not just do it like every other rocket and go from the ground?
Mic Woltman:So-so, uh, airdrop has some advantages for smaller payloads. And that’s what Pegasus is, right? 1,000 kilograms or less type of payload. And you can– you can put a smaller payload on there, science payload. And use the, uh, L-1011, instead of having it launch from the ground, you can get to 39,000 feet and give it a little bit of, uh, early start, if you will, right, to get out of Earth’s atmosphere, right? So you’re at 39,000 feet, so you don’t need quite as much energy in your fuels and your boost to get out of the Earth’s atmosphere and go. So that’s one of the advantages to the smaller rocket on the L-1011, the airdrop vehicle, right? Tim’ll talk a little bit about Delta II and-and some of the solids and stuff we need to put on there. But that’s one of the advantages to it.
Tim Dunn:Another advantage is– what plagues us the most in the summertime in Florida?
Mic Woltman:Exactly.
Host:Weather.
Tim Dunn:Yeah, weather. Well, guess what happens when you fly out of 39,000 feet? Mic?
Host:Not so much weather?
Mic Woltman: Not so much weather.
Host:Cool.
Mic Woltman:Uh, the-the biggest thing you have to deal with at 39,000 feet is the temperature. And so we designed the rocket and-and all the components to meet that cold temperature while you’re cruising at 39,000 feet. So Tim’s absolutely right. You-you pretty much take the weather out of the equation for launch day, right? Go ahead.
Host:And How big is the Pegasus compared to the airlines–
Mic Woltman:So the Pegasus is actually only 50 inches in diameter. Okay?
Host: Just over four feet.
Mic Woltman:Just over four feet.
Host:Okay.
Mic Woltman:50 inches in diameter, uh, underneath the L-1011, right? And the length of the Pegasus is about…
Tim Dunn:Hmm– what would that be, about 42 feet or so–
Mic Woltman:42 to 50 feet.
Tim Dunn:Yeah.
Mic Woltman:I always try to– in my mind, I always remember 50-50, but it’s actually a little bit less than 50 feet long.
Tim Dunn: Yeah.
Mic Woltman:Uh, with a Delta wing on it. So it’s a pretty small rocket. I mean, I don’t wanna take away from it.
Host:Sure.
Mic Woltman: It’s a mighty rocket, in what it’s designed to do for. But compared to a Delta II or an Atlas V, or a Delta IV Heavy, or a Falcon 9, it’s-it’s small in diameter and small in length, right? So you think of that 50– less than 50 feet long and 50 inches in diameter, and the wingspan of an L-1011 is about 2 to 2.5 times that.
Host:Okay.
Mic Woltman:Right? So you’re lookin’ 150 feet, roughly 150–
Host:Sure.
Mic Woltman:So that give you an idea of the wingspan, and how that sits underneath the belly of the– of the L-1011.
Host:Cool.
Mic Woltman: But very important, Northrop Grumman has been doin’ this for years. This’ll be our, uh, 44th Pegasus?
Tim Dunn:Sounds right.
Mic Woltman: Uh, that Northrop Grumman has launched. Uh, I believe that’s correct. And, um, we’re really excited and-and gettin’ that off the, uh– off the ground. But, uh– but our next one up–
Host:Yeah.
Mic Woltman:Our next one.
Host:Delta II, the grandfather.
Mic Woltman: Which is always the most–
Tim Dunn: The most important.
Mic Woltman: Which is always the most important one.
Host:Whichever one is next.
Mic Woltman:Which– it’s which– whatever’s next is the most important one. And that, I’m gonna– I’m gonna turn that over to Tim, ’cause it is a very special rocket. And we have a lot of heritage with it.
Tim Dunn:So next up for Launch Services Program, we’re gonna launch, uh, the final Delta II. And the payload there is ICESat-2. And it will be the final launch. We are in our 30th year of flight with the Delta II launch vehicle. Uh, it had its debut flight on Valentine’s Day, February 14th, 1989.
Host:Awesome.
Tim Dunn:And so, uh, it’s, uh– it’s, uh– has become known as the industry workhorse. Uh, Delta II–
Mic Woltman:Yes.
Tim Dunn:–is not a huge rocket, it’s, in itself–
Host:It’s not tiny.
Tim Dunn: But it’s not tiny.
Host:Yeah, it’s not tiny.
Tim Dunn: It’s-it’s– yeah, it’s only eight feet in diameter, um–
Mic Woltman: Yeah, eight feet in diameter, about 130 feet tall.
Tim Dunn:About 130 feet tall, Yep.
Mic Woltman:Yeah, it’s-it’s– uh, we call it– we refer to it as a medium-class rocket.
Host:Yep, okay.
Mic Woltman:But it’s a– it’s a mighty workhorse. It has been, for NASA and other agencies.
Tim Dunn:What’s special about Delta II is this is gonna be the 155th flight, and the final one for-for, uh, Delta II. And it kinda created its own market in that medium class of launch vehicles. Because it became known as that workhorse, that dependable, reliable, uh, relatively low-cost launcher. And so, our spacecraft, a lot on the science side, uh, d-decided back in the early ’90s, let’s just design our spacecraft to fit on Delta II.
Host:Oh, wow.
Tim Dunn: So it kinda–
Host: Interesting.
Tim Dunn:–grew its own class and size of spacecraft market.
Host:Which I wanna get into that some more in a little bit. But that’s very backwards of how most everything else works for you guys, correct?
Tim Dunn:Right.
Mic Woltman:Correct.
Host:Yeah, so we’ll come back to that. That’s really interesting.
Mic Woltman: Yeah, one of– and-and, uh, to just kinda elaborate on that, one of the things that was unique about Delta II, back in the ’80s, um, when it came around, it was a– it was a big block buy. Or w-what that means is they bought a lotta rockets. Uh, the Air Force did. And Tim was part of that, in the, uh– with their GPS satellites, way back then. And that kinda got things going. But like Tim said, they started designing the satellites to fit on the rocket. So a little backwards than what we normally do, but it worked.
Tim Dunn:Yeah. NASA has benefited greatly from the Delta heritage of launch vehicles, dating back to 1960, and Delta I. Uh, but focusing on Delta II, the Air Force, we have to, uh– we’ll-we’ll take a moment here and pay homage to our partners–
Host:Yes, sure.
Tim Dunn:–uh, the United States Air Force. If not for them–
Host:Sure.
Tim Dunn:–Delta, the fleet, could’ve easily been retired, uh, in about 1986.
Host: Hmm.
Mic Woltman:Yeah, the– ac-actually, production on Delta vehicles was halted–
Host:It was halted.
Mic Woltman:–in 19, uh, ’81. Because if you recall, what happened in that year w– or that timeframe was, uh, Shuttle started flying.
Host:Yeah.
Mic Woltman:And the government said, “we’re going to deploy all commercial satellites from Shuttle.”
Tim Dunn:And the Air Force–
Host: Interesting.
Tim Dunn: –meanwhile, had Atlas, uh, the Atlas I and the Atlas II–
Mic Woltman:Right, yes.
Tim Dunn:–was comin’ online. They also had Titan. So, uh, they really didn’t need the Delta, uh, anymore. But then–
Host:‘Cause the space shuttle was supposed to be flying–
Tim Dunn:Space shuttle was–
Host:–monthly, almost.
Tim Dunn:Exactly.
Host: And just delivering payload after payload.
Mic Woltman:Multiple times a month.
Tim Dunn: It was supposed to– it was referred to as the semi truck of space, right? It was supposed to deliver a lot of things on orbit, and th– all that. And then in 1986, uh, Ronald Reagan declared that, you know, we would not– we would launch– we wouldn’t launch commercial satellites on Shuttle anymore.
Host:Sure.
Mic Woltman:So Delta–
Tim Dunn:So the Air–
Mic Woltman:–kinda rose up.
Tim Dunn:United States Air Force needed to get these newly-developed, uh, global positioning satellites on orbit. Previously they were going to fly on the shuttle. Now they’re being, uh, manifested on expendable launch vehicles. The Air Force said, “hey, let’s go, uh, redesign the last version of the Delta I. Let’s call it Delta II. Let’s upgrade it, make it a little, uh, beefier, launch bigger payloads.”
Mic Woltman:Right.
Tim Dunn:They provided that infrastructure here, at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, at Complex 17. And so it was kinda on that foundation that the NASA science community was able to leverage and say, “wow, let’s-let’s go back to Delta, with these slightly smaller spacecraft for science purposes.”
Mic Woltman:It is the final Delta II for us as LSP, for the production of Delta II, out of space launch Complex 2 out at Vandenberg. But you know, uh– and why I said, earlier, it’s a little emotional for Tim, it’s not only the a– end of an era for Delta II. But you know, this is the third time Tim’s had to say goodbye, uh, to Delta II.
Host:Yeah, yeah, talk about that a little bit, ’cause–
Mic Woltman:Yeah, so–
Host: I know– I haven’t had a lot of experience, ’cause I’m not as-as invested in the history of NASA. But I know that there were, a few years ago, we-we– Delta IIs were gone. And all of a sudden, Delta IIs were back.
Mic Woltman:So-so NASA, in September of 2011, we launched the GRAIL Mission, off of, uh, 17B, which was the last– supposed to be the last Delta II.
Host: Right.
Tim Dunn: From the East Coast.
Mic Woltman:From the East Coast, that’s correct–
Tim Dunn: And then we had a month later, we went out west, to Vandenberg, to launch the NPP Mission–
Mic Woltman:NPP Mission, yeah.
Tim Dunn:Which was the absolute, final Delta II.
Host:The last one.
Mic Woltman:The last one ever, right.
Host:That’s it, we mean it.
Mic Woltman:And so– and-and-and, uh, in ’09 was the Navstar Mission, which was an– a Air Force mission–
Tim Dunn:Right.
Mic Woltman:–on 17A. And that was the last mission off 17A. So 17 A and B were decommissioned, on the East Coast.
Host:Okay.
Mic Woltman:And then NPP, last launch off of Space Launch Complex 2. So Tim, you know, Tim had to say goodbye during all that time. And then, a few years later–
Tim Dunn:That’s right, then ULA, United Launch Alliance–
Mic Woltman:Mm-hmm.
Tim Dunn:–who builds, uh, the Delta line and the Atlas line, they said, “but wait. We have a few extra parts.”
Mic Woltman:“There’s more.”
Host:“There’s more.”
Tim Dunn: “There’s more.”
Mic Woltman:And-and NASA had four, uh, sp-science missions that had just come out and been approved.
Host:Right.
Mic Woltman:The OCO-2 Mission. The, uh, SMAP Mission, which is the Soil Moisture, uh, Mission, the JPSS-1 Mission–
Tim Dunn:Weather satellite.
Mic Woltman:Weather satellite that we just launched, uh, recently. And-and of course, ICESat-2. And they all approached Launch Services Program. And they’re all within the Delta II range of um, weight requirements.
Host: Requirements, yeah.
Mic Woltman:And so NASA turned ULA on to manufacture, uh, the last four, uh, Delta-Delta IIs. And that’s where we are today. So, I can honestly say that there are no more parts left.
[laughter]
Um, the-the-the–
Tim Dunn:Oh, there’s always a few spare parts, Mic, uh–
Mic Woltman: Somethin’ out there.
Tim Dunn: What are you doin’ this weekend? I think we might be able–
Host:You said this was a hobby, right?
Mic Woltman:Yeah.
Tim Dunn:A little extra time.
Mic Woltman:We-we– time, you know, we might.
Tim Dunn:You never know what we could tinker with.
Mic Woltman:Yeah, we could come up– they’re– uh– United Launch Alliance does have some parts out there for a fifth-fifth vehicle. But, um, it, uh– I believe it will find its way to some other, uh, areas.
Host: All right.
Mic Woltman: So I-I can probably, with 99.9%–
Tim Dunn: Yeah.
Mic Woltman: –certainty, say, ICESat-2 is the final launch–
Tim Dunn:This is– this is the end of the line. >> –of the Delta II. [laughter]
Host: Awesome. Hey, guys, uh, we need to kinda wrap it up. I wanted to ask you to give me a little bit of feedback, kind of your opinion. If you could leave people with one piece of knowledge or understanding about what LSP does, uh, about how important it is, what would you say?
Tim Dunn:Wow, Joshua, I would that, uh, Launch Services Program is the government organization that provides the mission assurance capability, the analytical capability that, uh, gives us the best chance that we’re gonna have 100% mission success for whatever science or robotic spacecraft we’re about to launch. We have some of the finest engineers–
Mic Woltman: Absolutely.
Tim Dunn:–and analysts, uh, worldwide. It’s just amazing when, uh, Mic and I get to walk the halls of LSP on a daily basis. Uh, the people that we interact with and that have been assembled, and everyone is just so enthusiastic about doing the job, doing it right.
Mic Woltman: Absolutely.
Tim Dunn:Uh, and, uh, just absolutely loves rockets, loves the spacecraft, loves the fact that they’re part of something special for humankind.
Mic Woltman:Yeah, I-I totally agree, Tim. I think Launch Services Program, we have some folks that are just world-renowned, uh, people, that are called upon by other agencies, called on by other contractors, sometimes, to provide input. We-we have a great team. And when I say team, it’s-it’s really– I-I referred to it earlier– it’s a family. I mean, the whole LSP program, from the top down, is a family. And the-the other thing I would say is, everybody we work with, I-I know, is-is so passionate about their jobs and what we do, and makin’ history. ‘Cause that’s what we feel like we do, is every day, working for NASA, working on some of NASA’s most important scientific and robotic missions, uh, we-we make history doin’ that, right? It’s-it’s just exciting for us, to get to do that.
Tim Dunn:Our-our-our number-one job is to make sure our spacecraft customers meet their requirements and get on orbit successfully, uh, exactly where they need to be, on the– specific orbit they need to get their science done. And-and we do not take that lightly in Launch Services Program. That is– that is, uh, part of our mission, is to open up the universe, you know, for our spaces– for our people and spacecraft to get things done. And-and yeah, we talk rockets all day long. But we’re-we’re in it to make sure our spacecraft customer succeeds.
Host:Awesome. Well, Tim, Mic, thanks for being in the booth with me today.
Mic Woltman:Thanks, Josh.
Host:Thanks.
Mic Woltman:It was fun.
Tim Dunn: It was a blast.
Host:And, uh, good luck with Delta II. Good luck with ICON. And good luck with future of science and space.
Amanda Griffin: After recording this podcast, our host, Joshua Santora, had the honor of being the launch commentator for the last Delta II flyout. This historic launch on Sept. 15 was a great success and will hold a special place in the hearts of Tim Dunn and Mic Woltman.
Launch Countdown Sequence: 15, copy, go, 14, greenboard…
Mic Woltman: There’s that greenboard call, that is great.
Host: 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Liftoff of the final Delta II, launching nearly three decades of science research and exploration missions, lifting ICESat-2 on a quest to explore the polar ice sheets of our constantly changing home planet.
Voice on Launch Countdown Net: God speed Delta II and thank you for your almost 30 years of unparalleled excellence.
Host: You all made this look easy, but this is rocket science. It is not easy, but the team looks like they just did a great job pulling together today. But on a personal level, Tim, we know that you love the Delta II, obviously you are committed to every mission and do a phenomenal job, so what’s this one for you, personally.
Mic Woltman: Besides being excited, what does it mean to you personally?
Tim Dunn: Well, obviously, I’m a little bit sad. I’m thrilled with the mission success, that we were able to close the chapter on Delta II with a huge success of an incredibly important science payload. ICESat-2 is going to do cutting edge scientific data gathering. The precision measurements it’s going to make from space are just going to be incredible. So, to be able to say that we launched this very important science mission on the final flight of the industry work horse is just a huge accomplishment for the entire team. And so I have a lot of personal feelings about Delta II, but I’m really just a very small part of the entire team and I’m just proud, honored, humbled, to be part of this team that gets to close the chapter on this incredible rocket.
Host: I’m Joshua Santora, and that’s our show. Thanks for stoppin’ by the rocket ranch. And special thanks to our guests, our aspiring Trekkies, Mic Woltman and Tim Dunn. To learn more about all things rockets, go to nasa.gov/launchservices. There are also several NASA podcasts you can check out to learn more about what’s happening at all of our centers at nasa.gov/podcasts. A special shout-out to our producer, Jessica Landa — happy trails to you, until we meet again — our sound men Dan Casper and Frankie Martin, editor Michelle Stone, and our production manager, Amanda Griffin. Tune in next month as we wrangle some ranch hands you may not expect to find around these parts. And remember: on the rocket ranch… even the sky isn’t the limit.