From Earth orbit to the Moon and Mars, explore the world of human spaceflight with NASA each week on the official podcast of the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas. Listen to in-depth conversations with the astronauts, scientists and engineers who make it possible.
On Episode 246, Juliane Gross and Cindy Evans describe opening a vacuum-sealed lunar sample that has been preserved for nearly 50 years. This episode was recorded on April 22, 2022.
Transcript
Gary Jordan (Host): Houston, we have a podcast! Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, Episode 246, “The Other Unopened Apollo Sample.” I’m Gary Jordan, I’ll be your host today. On this podcast we bring in the experts, scientist, engineers, astronauts, all to let you know what’s going on in the world of human spaceflight. The saying goes that “good things come to those who wait.” Fifty years ago, Apollo astronauts knew when they collected lunar samples on the surface of the Moon that some of them would need to be saved as technology evolved. Fast forward to 2022: in its most pristine condition, scientists have opened one of the last sealed Apollo lunar samples. This sample was collected specifically during the Apollo 17 mission. On episode 137, we actually talked about one of the Apollo lunar samples that was opened in 2019. On that episode, our guests Charis Krysher and Andrea Mosie gave us a great insight into the important and tedious effort that goes into examining lunar samples, and why core samples are so highly treasured. On the podcast they discussed the first half of a core sample that was opened and how this specific sample was not vacuum-sealed. They then went on to explain how they looked forward to one day opening the other half of that lunar core sample that was completely vacuum-sealed. Today, we’ll be talking about just that: in March of this year, the vacuum-sealed core sample that was opened at the Astromaterials Research and Exploration Science, or ARES, division, right here in Houston, Texas at NASA’s Johnson Space Center. This initiative was led by the Apollo Next Generation Sample Analysis Program, or ANGSA, which was designed to study Apollo samples and help us prepare for future samples found on Artemis missions. To explain more about this recent historic unveiling, joining us today, we have deputy Apollo sample curator Dr. Juliane Gross, along with Artemis science team geology training lead Cindy Evans. With that, let’s get right into the podcast. Enjoy.
[Music]
Host: Juliane and Cindy, thank you so much for coming on Houston We Have a Podcast.
Juliane Gross: Thank you so much for having us. This is going to be exciting.
Cindy Evans: Yes, it’s great to be here. Thank you so much.
Host: This really is an exciting time, isn’t it? This was, you guys have been holding onto this sample for quite some time, so we’re absolutely going to get into that. And I cannot wait for you guys to share the experience of what this is and why it’s important. But let’s first, by, just talking about you guys and your roles, so Juliane why don’t you, why don’t you start us off first. You were the lucky person that got to actually touch this sample. So talk about your experience, what got you to eventually be the person that got to touch the sample; tell me about your career.
Juliane Gross: OK. So my career started in Germany, and you might hear a little accent when I talk and that’s because I’m German. And I was born in Germany and I went to school there and I went to university there, working with Earth rocks. And so, I looked at high pressure rocks from the Czech Republic, and then I decided to do a Ph.D. doing experiments. And when I was six years old I wanted to be a farmer or an astronaut. And then I sort of forgot about it. And so when I got into geology I really enjoyed traveling and, like, seeing the world, doing field trips and, you know, collecting all these rocks. And then after I got my Ph.D. there was a position posted at the Lunar and Planetary Institute to work on lunar samples. And I didn’t even know that existed. And so, I was like, cool, I’m going to apply for this job; they will never hire me because I have never had a planetary science class in my entire life, but who cares, right? So I, I applied and they invited me for an interview and they really liked what I did, I guess, so they hired me. And so I switched fields from Earth rocks to planetary science, working specifically on lunar samples. And I loved it so much that I stuck with it. And then, went to New York to be a research scientist at the American Museum of Natural History. And then eventually, I got hired at Rutgers University as a professor for planetary sciences. So even though I never had a planetary science class in my life, I now teach that, that stuff. [Laughter] So that’s really funny. And so then, in 2019, I was approached by NASA and they asked me if I would be willing to take some time off Rutgers and to come and help with the, the ANGSA initiative, the Apollo Next Generation [Sample] Analysis Program, and help with opening the sample, the, you know, the last couple samples, the Moon, of the Moon. And so, I mean, who, who wouldn’t, who wouldn’t say yes to that, right? And so, I was like, absolutely, yes. And so now I’m on loan to NASA from, from Rutgers, since 2019, and I was hired as the deputy Apollo sample curator. And so I work in lunar curation and, I love it. The people there are great. And, yeah, I learn new things every day. And, you know, I get to be part of this wonderful team who does things that have never been done in human history before. And so, it’s just really fascinating and, and it’s amazing and, and I love it. And so that’s, that’s my career, how I got here.
Host: What a wonderful story, Juliane. That was awesome. Cindy, I, I I’d hate to toss to you and have you follow that, but I’m sure your, your, your career…
Juliane Gross: Sorry, Cindy.
Host:… is just as interesting. No, no, I’m sure you both have interesting careers, but that one was, it was truly fascinating. Cindy, a little bit about yourself?
Cindy Evans: OK. So like Juliane, I started off studying Earth rocks and all career pathways seemed to be a little bit of a winding path. So I started off actually in oceanography; I got my Ph.D. in, in oceanography studying samples from the bottom of the ocean that, you know, Earth samples that are very much actually like the planetary samples, you know, they’re the same kinds of rocks; they’re basalts. They are the rocks that are like our Earth’s mantle. And, and I finished my Ph.D. and I continued to follow along that pathway. I started teaching at Colgate University, I was a professor of geology there. And after a few years I came to the Johnson Space Center and I worked in the Earth Observations office for several years, and so that’s where I got into understanding about, about space rocks, a little bit and about spaceflight. I got to train, started training crew members on how to observe the Earth — the Earth is a planet, so all terrestrial rocks are also planetary rocks — did that for several years. Some things happened at NASA, there was the Columbia accident; started, you know, doing more image analysis for engineering purposes and, and Return to Flight. Then I sidestepped, you know, over to the curation office where Juliane currently works, worked there for several years back in the Constellation era, starting to put together protocols for human exploration of the lunar surface. And then that went away for a few years, but I stayed in curation, I, I was the manager of the curation office for a while. Then I took on some division responsibilities, I was the division chief in ARES, until I stepped over to do what I’m doing right now which is helping to plan for Artemis lunar surface operations and training crew members to go back to the Moon. So, so it’s taken a few little loop-de-loops there, but, but it’s been a fun ride.
Host: No, I was, I was proven wrong instantly: both of you have incredible careers. This is, I’m so lucky to be talking to both of you right now: this is so fascinating, from studying rocks on the bottom of the ocean, and it’s just absolutely incredible. I want to, I want to get right into this experience of opening this, of this core sample because I, I’m, I’m just really excited about it. I know it’s a very exciting time. I, I know it’s part of this, this larger, effort. So, so let’s, let’s start with this larger effort, this, ANGSA effort, and then let’s go from there. Cindy, if we can, if we can do ANGSA first, with you, to talk about just what is this initiative that, that we’re doing, this next generation of, of Apollo samples, and then we’ll go into this particular sample.
Cindy Evans: So you’re starting. OK. So, so ANGSA is, it is opening up an Apollo 17 core. It’s actually taking some of the samples that have never been opened up, but were collected in the Apollo era, but were specifically set aside for future research when the analytical capabilities and the sophistication of the questions became greater over 50 years’ time. And so, NASA decided now that we’re going back to the Moon, it’s actually time to open up some of those Apollo samples. And it was competitively selected across the whole of the research community. And research teams were selected and, and the samples were identified. And then that’s where Juliane and all the work that she’s doing comes in.
Host: Let’s, let’s back up a second. You said, you said, we’re going back to the Moon, this is part of the Artemis program, right? So, so is that really, is that really the reason that we’re doing this, is we’re going back, we’re thinking about other samples that, that we might want to get ahold of; the technology’s a little bit better; the time is now. Is that a good read?
Cindy Evans: Oh, that, that’s absolutely a good reason. And so, and also, we should know as much as we possibly can about the samples that we currently have so we can have a better plan for collecting more samples. And, and, you know, the core samples that, that are currently being opened and studied have relevance to how we might approach sampling during Artemis at the lunar South Pole.
Host: Juliane, you agree?
Juliane Gross: Yes. So, so the, the ANGSA initiative is basically a sample return, a new sample return mission; it is handled as a new sample return mission similar to what will happen with Artemis. Because that, the samples that were selected to, to look at had never been opened and seen before, especially the second, the second sample we’re working on right now. And so that is basically a sample of return mission, similar to what we will have for Artemis. And so by selecting several teams that now work together as one science team, which is exactly what we’re going to have for Artemis, we can see and train and practice what this will be like when the Artemis samples come back: how to form consortia, how to do preliminary examination, you know, what kind of science should get done at the beginning right, right when the samples return, what science can be done slightly later, you know, all of these things, how do we need to curate them, are extremely important moving forward for Artemis. In this particular sample that was selected, this double drive tube, the lower part of the double drive tube was sealed on the Moon in a vacuum–sealed container. And so because it comes from deep within the, within the Moon, the gases that, that, you know, over time trickle out of the Moon — the Moon is degassing since its formation, basically — you capture these gases in the cores, just because you take samples from deep within, because it was put in a vacuum-sealed container now you’re trapping those gases within the core. So on the lunar South Pole there are permanently-shadowed regions, because the Sun angle is so low the crater rims create really long shadows, and so there are areas where Sun has never, ever touched the surface, basically. And so these areas are extremely cold and they become cold traps. So all the gases and volatiles that come out of the Moon, they get frozen there. But we also have stuff that gets brought to the Moon, either through asteroids or comets or solar wind that interacts with the soil [and] creates hydrogen, right, and so that’s not lunar gas and not lunar ice. And so, what we don’t know what is lunar and what isn’t. And so if you go to Artemis and collect all these frozen samples, you don’t know what is which. And so by looking at the gases that are trapped in the Apollo core, we now have a tool to deconvolve what is lunar and what is not when we go to Artemis, and hopefully bring back samples that are frozen or cold or, you know, have ices in them. And so, we really need this particular sample we’re looking at right now as kind of like a ground truth to then understand the Artemis samples better.
Host: That’s really, OK, so it’s, it’s really about, it’s really about, you want to, you want to weed out those gases, or you want, like, it just helps you to focus on whatever you want to focus on.
Juliane Gross: It helps us understand what gases are from the Moon and where they came from and what gases are not from the Moon…
Host: Yeah.
Julianne Gross:…and then we can understand what the compositions are for Artemis going forward.
Host: OK. So let’s get into the, the process itself. First question I have is how do you measure those gases? What did, what, what, what was the technique that you used?
Juliane Gross: Yeah, so that, that was one of the things where, when NASA brought these samples back 50 years ago, they have, they were really smart about it because they, so the Moon is a hard vacuum basically, right, there’s no atmosphere, and so the gases are, so they on the inside slowly, slowly coming out over time. It’s very little gas in there. So when I say gases, right, it’s, it’s technically still a vacuum, right? And so, NASA knew that we don’t have the technology yet to actually extract those gases and then to analyze those gases because they’re so little of it, right? And so, they’re like, let’s just wait, because, you know, technology will evolve for time and we will be able to ask better questions and then use better instruments that need less material or less quantities of gas or rock or whatever, you know, to get more precise data. And so now, 50 years later, they’re like, hey, let’s do this. And so the very first thing we had to figure out was how to get the gas out of these containers. And so when the sample was brought to the Moon, it was placed inside another vacuum-sealed container, just in case the, the sealed sample on the Moon wasn’t a hundred percent sealed, right? Because you don’t know, like once you seal it, you’re like, great it’s sealed, but is it really sealed, right? So they stored it inside another vacuum-sealed container and then they pump vacuum on it. And so first thing we have to figure out is how to connect that outer vacuum container with everything in, inside to an apparatus to then extract that gas, right, and then take the actual lunar vacuum container out, pierce it without contaminating the core sample that’s inside, to release that gas, right? And so that was done in combination with other institutions. So, Washington University in St. Louis, they built an, a gas extraction manifold. So it sounds really complicated, but basically it’s just an apparatus that has canisters on it where you pump vacuum in lines and then you hook it up and you open a valve and then all the gas expands into these canisters. So then you can seal the canisters, keep the gases safe, put on new canisters and do the same thing for the, for the inner container.
Host: it’s almost like a transfer of the gas, from one canister to the other.
Juliane Gross: Yeah, yeah; exactly. That’s exactly right. Right. And then we had the European Space Agency involved. And so they built a piercing tool for us so that we could place it inside another container; when you pump vacuum on it, then you push a, a big steel needle basically into it so that you can pierce the outer vacuum container just enough to release those gases, but not too much to puncture the, the tube where the core sits in, right, because you don’t want to contaminate your sample. And so that, you know, it’s like, it was like a three-year process of, like, thinking about it and starting to develop this. And then it all came together, what, ten weeks ago, I want to say like, beginning of February, like all the instruments start arriving at JSC, and, like, we had tested stuff before with ESA and WashU, and, and so then the, the manifold came and the piercing tool came and we started to connect everything, and then, yeah, and then mid-February is when we started to pierce and, and basically transfer the gas. And it was very intense and a lot of long hours in the lab for a lot of weeks.
Host: Yeah.
Juliane Gross: And, and yeah; and so, so that was the very first step.
Host: OK. Well, it’s, I, I want to explore that a little bit for sure. A lot of planning to, to make sure you guys, it sounded like three years of planning, to make sure that when you opened that sample, you had thought of every plausible scenario, you had thought everything through so well that you can go into it as informed as you can possibly be. Sounds like you had a lot of help along the way.
Juliane Gross: Yeah.
Host: Take us to that moment, whenever you, it was time: you had all the instruments, everybody was contributing…all eyes on you.
Juliane Gross: Yeah. Yeah. So we, we had a huge team behind us, right? And they all did the development and the testing and the building and the testing, and then, and then getting it here and then testing it again. And so, so when it was the actual day when we pierced it, we had Francesca McDonald from ESA here, and so she did the piercing because she has all the practice and, you know, she tested this at ESA. And so it was, was her and I, we were there, you know, trying to pierce and, and it was, it was a very intense moment, you know, you’re very focused so you kind of like, forget time around you, and you’re just like, OK, let’s do this, one step at a time; do a measurement, one step at a time; do, did we pierce it? Yeah. You know, and then you hear this, like, “ping” noise, and you know you went through the metal, right? And you’re like, oh, we just pierced it.
Host: Yeah.
Juliane Gross: Right? And you’re like, OK, let’s, you know, and then you have to push the needle through a little bit more to make the opening bit, big enough so that the gas actually can get released, right? And so, we measured exactly how, like, how far we had to go through and, yeah, and then it is just like, you’re just so relieved and so happy. And because, you know, like, OK, you’ve done the first step, right? You still have not extruded the core, but like, OK, we are ready to now open the valve and release the gas and like transfer the gas over to the canisters. And so, so we had Rita Parai there, from WashU, she’s the gas extraction lead on this project, and so she was there and we, we had all sorts of other people in the lab as well to, like, observe this and, and, and, you know, be part of this historic moment because, really, like, I mean, this is the first time, you know, in human history, this, anybody has done this, you know? Nobody has ever done this before. And so, it was, it was really cool. And I’m so happy and glad that I got to be part of this team. It’s a once in a lifetime experience.
Host: When you woke up that morning, what were some of the things running through your, your head? Like, don’t drink coffee, because you’re going to shake, you know, what was some of those…
Juliane Gross: Oh no, I definitely drank coffee.
Host: You definitely drank coffee.
Juliane Gross: [Laughter] I definitely drank coffee that day. Yeah. I don’t know. I think I woke up and I was like, OK, today’s the day. We’re going to do this and it’s going to, it’s going to go great. Today’s going to be a great day. And then you just like go in with a positive attitude. I mean, you’re tired because you have been working in the lab for weeks at a time now, right? And, and, but you’re just like, OK, we got this. And then, you know, and then when we were in the lab I remember Francesca and I were like, OK, we got this, right? We got this. Yeah, we got this. OK, cool. Let’s do it. Like, you know, we were, we were…
Host: A lot of energy in the room.
Juliane Gross: Yeah. And supporting each other and it was just great. It was, it was really nice.
Host: Yeah. So how’d it go? How’d the gas extraction go? Did it go according to plan and everything?
Juliane Gross: Yeah. Yeah. Everything went as we had hoped for, best case scenarios. And so we filled the canisters with gas. And they’re still sitting up in the lunar curation facility waiting to be allocated at some point to people who want to do research on them.
Host: Oh, OK. So the, OK; so the, the process that you thought of ahead of time was you, you want to come up with a method to capture the gas.
Juliane Gross: That’s correct.
Host: Now it’s up to researchers to say, this is what I want to do with that captured gas.
Juliane Gross: Yeah, exactly.
Host: OK.
Juliane Gross: Exactly. So we, we had two little bottles of where we took initial gas samples from, and so they’re, they’re, with the gas extraction lead at the moment being analyzed at this very moment, so that we know whether the gas we captured is really lunar gas, right, or if any of the containers leaked and then cabinet gas got in or something like that, so that’s the first step you want to find out. And so, we get it, get an idea of what the composition is. And then, and then there will be an announcement to the world, I guess, you know, for the sense: OK, this is the initial composition of the gas; anybody can now write a proposal and propose, you know, what additional analysis to do on the gas and then, and then the proposals get submitted and then people can get selected to be part of the science team to then do specific measurements, you know, on these gases, you know, be it looking at, at isotopes or fractionation trends or, or compositions, you know, and that then will help us better understand what to look forward to with Artemis.
Host: And the same thing with the core sample, too?
Juliane Gross: Yes. Yes. So, once we had done all of that, we then had to switch gears and think about the process of how to actually open the vacuum-sealed container and pulling the core sample out and then extruding the core sample so we can start dissecting it and then allocating samples to the science team. And the science team has, as, as Cindy had mentioned before, you know, they had written proposals and said, OK, here’s the science that we want to do on the sample, and, and now we just need to allocate them the samples, right? Well, one of the interesting facts that we found out when we looked at the, at the, the vacuum canister, like nobody has ever seen what the sample looks like on the inside. Some of the other cores that were brought back, they did a, an x-ray, they’d x-rayed them, like when you go to the doctor and they x-ray your arm because it’s broken, right? We can do that with samples, too. This particular sample, they didn’t do it because it was in this, in this steel vacuum container. So you would have had to x-ray two, two steel, steel container and aluminum tube, but which they couldn’t do. So nobody knew what was there. And so after we had pierced it, we wanted to see whether we by accident pierced that Teflon cap that holds at, at the bottom of the core, right, because that means we probably could have contaminated the sample. And we, so we wanted to know if that cap is still on, and if not what we have to do well, you know, then we would have to figure out a new way to extrude the core, basically. So we x-ray, we CT-scanned it, so x-ray computer tomography, which is what most people know from, from, from medicine, right, if they stick you in the tube they CT-scan you and look into your brain without cutting you open, right? So we can do the same thing with rocks. And so we, we CTed the bottom part to look inside, basically, and, and you can really see nicely that, you know, we punctured to the metal, and then we sort of dented the Teflon cap a little bit, but we didn’t puncture it. It didn’t, it didn’t go through. So we were like, yes, fabulous, everything went according to plan. Our, you know, the ESA calculations were perfect; great. And they were like, hey, let’s just scan the top just for funsies. And I know that also the engineers really wanted to have a CT scan of the top because they sealed it with like a metal seal and they wanted to see how the Apollo astronauts did that so that they can think about the Artemis canisters, right?
Host: Cool; yeah.
Juliane Gross: So we were like, cool, let’s just do it, like quick, dirty scan, you know? And I’m so glad we did it because once we scanned the upper part we figured out that the astronauts overfilled the core. So when they take a core sample, what normally happens you put a little tool on top of the sample and you press it in, and the tool has kind of like little spider arms; and when you press that into the, into the drive tube, the spider arms catch the metal sides, so you can press it down because the spider arms move up but they don’t move down. So when you press it down, they, they, they scrape along the sides. And then if you try to pull it out, you know, they really engage, and like, they, they, they, they tighten, right? And that’s how you keep the soil from moving within the tube. That’s how you keep it constrained, right? Because now nothing can move anymore, so you can shake it and throw it in the air, whatever, you know, into your spacecraft, doesn’t matter because your core is really nicely compacted in that tube. Well, they filled it so, so, so full that there was no space for this tool, so that, so they just, they just placed it on top. And they were like, well, here it is, right? But now it wasn’t constrained so it was basically like moving freely around, and then they put it inside this vacuum container and when you put the lid on and the knife edge seal there’s the screw that goes in, and that screw basically held this little tool in place and sort of seal, sealed the bottom part. So it couldn’t move, right? And so the core was still restricted, or constrained.
Host: Yeah.
Juliane Gross: But the original idea, when you, when you extrude a core, that is that you take it out of the vacuum container and then you drive it to a specialized CT facility at UT (University of Texas) Austin to get a, get a really good scan on it. Then you take it back, then you tip it upside down, you remove the Teflon cap and extrude it. But if we had done that, if we had just opened the container, right, under the assumption that there is the top, basically, on, well, the top is not on anymore — the entire core would’ve just been like, whoop, you know, fell out and then that’s it, right? So, so we decided to CT scan it inside the vacuum container. We were like, let’s just not open it, just let’s drive to UT Austin, do it, right? So while that happened, Andrea and I, Andrea Mosie, and I spent almost an entire week in the core cabinet with our hands inside the cabinet, with a mockup drive tube, that we were like, OK, so this is the situation we have: how, we had to invent a new way of how to extrude the core, basically, and how to get it out of that tube without losing any soil and any science and not contaminated it. So it, it was like being MacGyver, right? Look, here are the limited tools that you have available; what can you build to make this, like, you know, safe and, and, and, and fast? And it took us, yeah, almost five days to figure it out.
Host: What, what was the solution; what’d you come up with?
Juliane Gross: So, we decided to screw kind of like a top on that we weren’t sure would fit and then kind of like slowly lift it out and then tip it to the side and then slide it out. And then once it’s out, set it upright, put a plug on it, restrain that, then turn it upside down and then take the Teflon cab off, put another plug on and then turn it up, up again, and then, and then fix the other side again. But because the soil was so full we didn’t know if that would really work because all the, the technologies that were built during the Apollo era, they were built so that you could extrude a certain length of core. Now this one appeared to be a lot longer because it was so much full, and some of the original equipment doesn’t exist anymore. And so we, we called up all the people who had worked on Apollo samples in like the 70s and 80s, right, we were like, hey, did you ever run into this issue, and they’re like, nope, you’re on your own. And we’re like, like you know, it was just like, OK. But yeah, we figured it out and we successfully extruded the core. It, it was stressful, but it was fun.
Host: But you, you did it. I mean…
Juliane Gross: We did it.
Host:…you had this, this huge challenge, and the core itself could have been compromised; you could have compromised a lot of very valuable science. I mean, this, this thing was preserved for 50 years.
Juliane Gross: Yep.
Host: But you figured it out.
Juliane Gross: We did figure it out. It was a lot of hard work and a lot of practice.
Host: Awesome work from your team. Really.
Juliane Gross: Yeah.
Host: Cindy, you hear this story, and I’m sure you have things going through your head about, gosh, we got to do better for Artemis, right? We got to make sure that we have the right procedures, the right techniques, the right tools that we communicate to the astronauts exactly what we want. So, so what’s going through your head as you’re working on the Apollo samples?
Cindy Evans: So, so, so, and I want to make clear, I don’t, I, I’m not personally working on the Apollo samples, but, but I’m, but we’re following everything that the team is doing because, because it’s so, it’s so important to be thinking about how we’re going to be designing tools, how we’re going to be training the crew members, how we’re going to be working with the engineers, what are the implications for the curation team and the scientists coming back to make sure that, that all the pieces fit together, and it’s complicated. And when you think that if you’re going to, you know, I think it’s, it’s incredibly complicated that maybe people will understand how much engineering goes into the, the tools that the crew members will be using on the lunar surface and that, and the, and the engineering that went into the tools of the crew members, the Apollo crew members, used on the lunar surface. And so, so thinking through, OK, you know, the, we need to make sure, and it’s important that we have geologists embedded with the, the tool developers — and we have got, have a really great relationship with, with the, the, the existing team right now — to make sure that not only do we understand how the tools are designed and the potential, you know, and test all the possibilities of failures or, or sort of misuse, like, probably nobody anticipated overfilling a core, and what the implications would be for that, in terms of, of, opening it up 50 years later. So, so, so those are the things that are going through my mind is like, how do we, like, what, what lessons can we pull from this? What, how do we feed that forward into the way that we’re going to be designing the tools? How do we feed that forward into the way that we’re going to be working with the crew members on the Earth in terms of collecting the samples and, and just communicating all the stuff across the engineering and, and operations and science boundaries that all have to work together to, to collect the samples and bring them back and get them into the hands of the scientists?
Host: And Juliane, how, how far are you along in the process of all of this? Are, are you done? Have you, have you…
Juliane Gross: Oh, no. [Laughter]
Host:[Laughter] Juliane shook her head and she’s like, oh, no, no, not at all. So how so, how, how far along are you and how far do you have yet to go?
Juliane Gross: OK. So when we do this, this core processing, you know, after you extrude the core, you start dissecting the core; it’s what we call dissection. And basically what that means, we’re, we’re taking the upper few centimeters and then dissect them in half-centimeter intervals, right? And so, so you’re basically slicing the upper third of the core, in half-centimeter intervals, and in each interval it gets sieved and you separate out clast and, like, rock fragments, right, into different, and you sort them in different size fractions. And we do this because we want to preserve any potential stratigraphy that exists in the core, you know, that is basically below the lunar surface that we can’t otherwise see, right? And so, sometimes you can see visible stratigraphy, where there are some areas that are darker than others, but oftentimes you don’t see anything, but there is a stratigraphy, let’s say, in chem, in chemistry. So maybe there’s a, an area that is more iron-rich than other areas, but you can’t see that visibly with your eyes, you know, unless you have x-ray vision or whatever, which nobody has. But so that’s why we are dissecting the core, and, and each interval gets a little sample container. And then all the rock chips or rock fragments that are larger than four millimeters we CT-scan them so that we can understand what rock types they, they actually are, right? And so, when you CT-scan something, you get, you can look inside the rock and you see the minerals and you see how, how they are in relationship to each other and what type of minerals they are. And so that, that how, that’s how we can identify different rock types. So we find little pieces of basalt, which is what we have on ocean floors on Earth, right? We found little pieces of impact melt. And so if you have an impact going on the Moon that, that, you know, melts the surface and that, you know, basically clumps everything together, and so you can see impact melts. We can see little pieces of a rock that’s called anorthosite, which is the very ancient lunar crust. And so, by doing this and scanning this, we can then create the sample catalog that then is being made available to the science community. And they can look at it and be like, oh, I’m really interested in basalts because I want to understand volcanism on the Moon, right? And so then they can request these specific fragments from us. And so, you do this, so you dissect the first third, basic first quarter, of the core, and then when that is done you push the core up above plate level and then you’re dissecting the second, the second half. So we, we are dissecting it horizontally and vertically at the same time. And so we call this a pass, so we’ve done the first pass. Then we’re going to do this all over again with the second pass, and then we’re going to do it all over again with the third pass. So that in the end, if you slice it, you know, if you have the core laying on a table and you would slice it all the way through, you get, you get one, two, three intervals for like a, a half centimeter.
Host: Oh, I see.
Juliane Gross: So you can sort of stack these, you know, on top of each other.
Host: OK. We, we should probably clarify what a, what a core sample is so folks, so folks understand it’s, I mean, we’re talking about a long tube and it goes deep, right?
Juliane Gross: Yeah.
Host: So it goes down. So what we’re trying to measure is, it’s not just like, when we’re talking about the Moon we’re not talking about just the surface, like…
Juliane Gross: No.
Host:…this is like layers.
Juliane Gross: Yeah. So basically, they took a hollow tube on the Moon and then they hammered it into the ground, and because the tube is hollow it fills then with the rocks and the soil that is the lunar surface, right? And, and, and it goes down 80 centimeters into the ground. And that, by doing that, it helps us to see any rocks that are below the surface, any potential layers that are in the surface that you could not see if you’re just standing on the surface or walking around on the surface. You really want to dig deep, basically, and so it’s a drill core; that’s really what it is. So you, you know, hammer it into the ground and that’s why we call it a core sample, but, but really it’s a, it’s a drive tube drill core sample.
Host: Now this is a very valuable type of sample, right, because, because of how deep it goes, right? So, so what are the different, as you go deeper, what does that tell you? What’s very interesting about that…
Juliane Gross: OK.
Host:…if you’re analyzing it, what does it tell you about the Moon?
Juliane Gross: So for this particular sample, it is interesting becomes, because it comes from an area on station three on the Apollo 17 mission, and that was near a landslide deposit. And so, you have a big massif, that was the South Massif, and where material from the top basically slump down in a, in a landslide. And so, this particular core sample sampled the landslide and sampled through the landslide under, so we don’t know what’s underneath, right? And so, what we were hoping is that it sampled the landslide and then also underneath. And so then by analyzing this, we can learn how landslides occurred on the Moon. On Earth they occur because you have lots of rain and no vegetation, and then on, the material slumps down, right?
Host: Yeah.
Juliane Gross: Bad if you build your house right there. There’s no rain on the Moon. So how do landslides occur on the Moon, right? Nobody like, I mean, sure there are hypotheses, and so we were hoping that, that some people will study this, like what drove this landslide? Can this happen again in other places, right?
Host: Yeah.
Juliane Gross: So if we build a base to stay on the Moon, we need to figure out these geological processes. So that, that was one of these, these hypothesis. There’s also a fault line that goes through that area, and so another reason why that sample was taken is because we were hoping that this fault line acts as a conduit to release gases from the inside of the Moon towards the surface. And so by taking this sample, especially the lower part of this drive tube that was like down, you know, 80 centimeters deep, when you take that and then seal it all the gases that are in, in, in that area then get trapped and sealed into your container, which is what we try to then, you know, transfer to our canisters in the lab.
Host: OK.
Juliane Gross: And so, you know, that is just really important and interesting. A lot of people on our science team, they want to also look at how the surface of the Moon is different from below the surface, right? We have, we have a lot of solar radiation and solar wind that bombards the surface because we don’t have an atmosphere there, and it changes the surface. And so when we actually extruded the core and we looked at it, the upper part, you can see that the first five centimeters are really dark, almost black, and the material underneath is just light gray. And so the material that gets bombarded and then physically changes from that radiation and from those particles, and builds little nanophase irons in it, and that makes it black. And so that’s a good process to understand. And you can then translate that knowledge to other airless bodies — like Mercury, same process happens there; on asteroids, same process happens there. So by having these samples and analyzing them, you not only learn about the Moon, what happened, but you also learn about other planetary bodies.
Host: Oh wow.
Juliane Gross: If you, you can think of the Moon and the rocks and the surface of the Moon as a museum of planetary history, because there’s, there’s no atmosphere, there’s no rain, there’s no wind, nothing that can change the samples and recycle the samples. Everything that happened to the Moon and all the processes that happened after its formation are still stored inside these samples. And so all this, the surface and all the rocks on the Moon are like an archive. And so, as scientists, our job is it to learn how to read this archive and extract all this knowledge and all this information that is stored inside the, the samples. So the samples are like books.
Host: Yeah.
Juliane Gross: We just need to learn how to read these, these rock books, basically.
Host: One big, perfectly preserved ball.
Juliane Gross: Yes. Yes, exactly. And, and so that is what, this is so exciting about this particular core, because it has been stored under hard vacuum, which is exactly what the Moon is like. So this sample has been the least-altered since almost 50 years ago, right? And so this is the sample where you can do science on that maybe you can’t really do on samples that have been stored in nitrogen. So that, that’s one of the things that will be tested with some of the scientists that are on the team: how are just, how is this different from, from samples that got stored in nitrogen to samples that got stored in vacuum, and should we store all the Artemis samples under vacuum, or not? Like, is, is nitrogen cool, is that, is that OK, right? You know, so all of these things will feed forward into Artemis, and this is why this is so important.
Host: Very important. Cindy, you’re hearing a lot of the things that Juliane is talking about. You’re, I’m sure you’re pulling a lot of lessons. I’m sure you have some core samples for the Artemis missions that you’re already thinking about. What are some of the things going through your head?
Cindy Evans: Absolutely. Yeah, so we are, we, of course, right now we don’t have a landing site for Artemis III, but we’re also thinking through a whole campaign of potential places to go visit on the surface of the Moon. And, and, but, and we’re going to all kinds of new places on the surface of the Moon that we didn’t go to 50 years ago with the Apollo, with the Apollo missions. So, so you know, the geology is going to be different. I mean, there’s some things that’ll be the same, but still, it’s, it, it will be sampling, you know, different terrains. Juliane already talked about going to these, the south polar region and these very, very cold areas where there may be some volatiles that are trapped in with the regolith, the dirt. So those, and those will be the things that we want to be able to capture in, in, in core tubes, in vacuum seal, potentially keep them cold. I mean, we, we, we may need to take it a step, we will need to take it a step further where we, where we collect samples and those samples are, are currently live in really cold conditions, very, very cold conditions, and we’ll want to try to keep those conditions after we collect the samples, the core tubes or, or other kinds of samples, in that same temperature regime before, while we bring it back to Earth before we get it into the laboratories. And so there won’t be any kind of alteration. We don’t want the volatile to melt or vaporize. So yeah, so, so there’s, there are a lot of lessons to be learned from this one drive tube that has been, is being worked on currently, thinking through how do we extend that for, for future kinds of samples we’re going to be collecting — there’ll definitely be core tubes collected on the surface of the Moon from the Artemis mission.
Host: Is that what you were talking about, Juliane, with the nitrogen or something, ways to keep the, ways to keep the samples cold? Is that…
Juliane Gross: No, with the nitro — so we store all the Apollo samples in nitrogen, in dry nitrogen atmosphere cabinets, and that’s because nitrogen is an inert gas, it doesn’t like to react, you know, hanging out.
Host: Oh, OK.
Juliane Gross: And so your samples don’t, like if you were storing them under normal atmosphere or, you know, we have water now atmosphere, I mean especially Houston is super-fricking humid, right?
Host: Oh yeah.
Juliane Gross: That would alter the samples. It would react with the samples. So we don’t want that. But we don’t have nitrogen on the Moon, right? So if you store something in, in vacuum, that keeps the sample closer to what they were on the Moon than if you were going to store them in nitrogen, right? It still keeps them pristine.
Host: OK. OK.
Juliane Gross: But when we go with Artemis to the South Pole, there are these really cold regions, and if you collect samples that have ices in them, right, you want to, you want to keep those frozen. And so, you need to have a freezer and then also process these samples frozen, right, in, maybe inside a freezer where you have a glovebox inside a freezer, and then you process these frozen. So that, that what Cindy said, these ices, and, you know, don’t vaporize, or turn, turn liquid, and then they start reacting with the soil or the rocks, right? You don’t want that. Or you try to avoid that. And so, that’s why for Artemis the engineers and, and the science team starts talking about and discussing, OK, how can we do this? What does the container need to look like? How does the process of transporting these samples to the spacecraft, from the spacecraft to like Gateway, from Gateway back to Earth, you know, and then in the curation facility what steps do we need to take; how many freezers do we need; are they cold enough, right? Like, all of these things had to be thought through before we can go and do this.
Host: That’s a massive undertaking.
Juliane Gross: Yeah.
Host: I mean, that’s a big ask for, like, the energy needs on, like, on a spacecraft. And then like, you’re talking about, you’re talking about infrastructure needs here on the ground, transporting to scientists who want to take a look and you got to transport them super-cold. You’re talking about a huge infrastructure change.
Juliane Gross: Yeah. So yeah,
Cindy Evans: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to talk over you, Juliane.
Juliane Gross: No, no. So it’s all good. Go ahead.
Cindy Evans: OK. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, so that, these are the, some of the discussions that we’re having right now with, with the, with the, the providers of the Human Landing System, and, and, you know, the whole chain of hardware that is being designed right now to go to the surface of the Moon is, because bringing back things cold and setting up that infrastructure is, it’s a lot different than it was for Apollo. I mean, this is a big change between Artemis and, and Apollo, is, is making sure that when we collect cold samples we can bring them back pristine, and, and understand how, you know, how it, how we do that and understand what the conditions are. There’s still a bunch of things we don’t know. We don’t know the temperatures, we don’t know the kinds of gases, exactly, there’s, there’s research going on right now, one of our colleagues is doing a lot of research in this, in this area. You know, trying to understand what are, what does that mean for the hardware we have to build, what does that mean for the operations, what does that mean for the transportation. It’s a big, it’s a big deal.
Host: It’s a big deal. It’s a big ask, but, but, but obvious, you know, from, from a scientific perspective, I’m sure there is, there is significant value to this. So, so if you had to think about that, Juliane I’ll pass to you, when you’re talking about the volatiles, what is so interesting about them that you would want to have this infrastructure to get that pristine sample back to Earth?
Juliane Gross: Well, I, I, different things, right? Like, if you look at lunar volatiles that were trapped during the formation of the, the Moon, and the Earth-Moon have a history, like, you know, they were born together, basically, and so by learning what gases are lunar and exist on the Moon we will also learn about Earth and where our water came from, for example, you know, the oceans and stuff like that. It will tell you something about the origin and the formation and the evolution of the Earth-Moon system through space and time. When you then see other, other volatiles or other ices and gases on the Moon, you know, you can then deconvolve, OK, what was brought to, to the solar system or to the Earth-Moon system from outside, through comets or asteroids, right? Like, did that contribute and can, whatever hit the Moon probably most likely also hit the Earth, right, and so did that contribute to the formation of the Earth and maybe life on this planet and, and water on this planet, right? And so there are all these unsolved questions that haven’t been answered yet. And so going to Artemis and finding these samples and these ices, hopefully finding these ices, that will, will help us answer some of these questions or, you know, will give us additional clues towards the answers of these questions.
Host: Yeah.
Juliane Gross: And so by capturing these gases in their pristine form, without making, you know, with making sure that they don’t escape or, or get altered in any way, will help us answer these questions or what will help the, the scientists know where these, these gases came from and what it means in respect to the Earth-Moon formation and evolution.
Host: OK. So big, big changes for, to answer big questions.
Juliane Gross: Yes.
Host: That’s really what I’m getting. These are questions that you just can’t get from, from different, you know, you can, you can answer a lot of questions about formation of the Moon, like you were saying with the Apollo 17 core sample with the landslide, like, there’s a lot of questions that you can ask, but if the volatiles just unlock a lot of secrets that we want to know about.
Juliane Gross: They, yeah, they do. And then also, you know, if you want to build and, and go back to the Moon to stay on the Moon, you know, you can potentially use these, these ices as resources, right?
Host: Right.
Juliane Gross: If they are, if they are water, well, great: now you can have stuff to drink, but you can make rocket fuel out of it by dividing it into hydrogen and oxygen, right?
Host: Yeah.
Juliane Gross: If they are mixed in with sulfur or chlorine, well, you know, you can probably, you know, you can still use it – now you like to have to be a little bit more careful because you don’t want to create some weird sulfuric acid things that might not be so good for the astronauts, right? So we want to know what these are so we can plan ahead for science, but also maybe later on for resources to like, you know, use the Moon and stay on the Moon.
Host: Hmm. Cindy, when we’re having this conversation, I mean, I’m getting excited; I’m sure you guys are way more excited than I am because you’re much closer to this, but I’m getting excited. And we’re, when we’re talking about opening up this core sample from the Apollo era, because this Artemis, what we’re talking about now, researching volatiles, having access, changing the whole infrastructure of how we get these samples, I mean, we’re talking about it now because it’s happening, it’s right around the corner. When you think about that, Cindy, just, you know, given, especially given your long career and to think about where we are now, how does that make you feel when you are reflecting on just where we are in human history for exploring the Moon?
Cindy Evans: Oh, I’m super-excited. You know, I’ve, I’ve been hoping to do this for the bulk of my career. And so, but, so, on one hand it’s been a long haul. On the other hand, we think about what we have to do between now the first Artemis, and Artemis III, it’s like, oh my gosh, we’ve got, oh, we have a lot of work to do. Oh my gosh, there’s so many, because, because you, you think, you know things from like a hundred-thousand-foot level, right? You know, but the more you try to piece together the, well this, in order to do this we need to do that, but in order to do that we need to do something else, and oh, we need to actually engage these people. Just the, just beginning to understand the complexities of things that seem really, really simple, you know, that’s huge. And we, and so we, we need to start engaging bigger teams. We need to start ensuring that there’s, like, we just understand each other’s vocabulary. It’s really, really exciting, and it’s really, really daunting because we have a lot of things we need to do between now and, and Artemis III.
Juliane Gross: Yeah. And, and everybody sort of has their own little agenda, right? Like, you know, you know, we want the most samples back, right? And then the engineers want to make sure that all the tools work correctly, right? And sometimes these things are not compatible. And then, you know, you have to talk to each other, and everybody wants something that’s slightly different and we, you all have to compromise and come up with solutions that fit, fit everybody somehow, right? And it’s just, it’s just a lot of work. Yeah.
Host: It’s a lot of work.
Cindy Evans: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so even like, again, we, you know, talking with our, our, our colleagues who, who are making the tools and, and they’re like asking questions about, can we make it out of this material or that material, because it’s going to be super-cold at the south polar regions, or, and we want to make sure that the samples themselves don’t get contaminated by materials that have trace amounts of, of elements that could, you know, that would flood the signatures that the samples have, you know, violate their pristinity. But making sure also that, that, that we can, you know, we can fit it into the operational scheme and not knowing that our engineering colleagues are going to be having, especially for the first missions, there’s, there’s just a bunch of checking out of how stuff works that’s going to have to happen. And then in the scientific community, because we’re going to a brand new place and, and it’s been so long, right, there’s, everybody’s been chomping at the bit to get a sample back, there will be definitely tug of wars about, well, what kinds of samples and exactly how much of different kinds of samples are going to be occupying the precious cargo that’s going to be coming back?
Host: To me, that just speaks to, it, it reinforces to me what a big moment this is, opening up this core sample. Yes, it’s a, I mean, we preserving it for, it’s really close to 50 years – -really close to 50 years that this has been preserved — and, and we’re opening it now and that’s, that’s big in and of itself. But to get, you know, you’re talking about all the work that’s ahead, to get that started now, to start those conversations, to open it up and go through the process and realize where those pinch points are so you can go fix them now, it, it just reinforces to me what a perfect time that is. And, and Juliane to you, like I’m, I’m thinking what a incredible moment you get to be a part of.
Juliane Gross: Yeah.
Host: You’re, you’re opening up a historic sample and you are paving the way for the next generation…
Juliane Gross: Yeah.
Host:…of how we, just thinking about that, like, how does that, how does make you feel, your role in all of this?
Juliane Gross: It’s, yeah…it, it’s incredible. It’s super-exciting. It is super-humbling at the same time, right, because you’re, you, you have your hands in the cabinet and you’re like, oh, I’m the first person who gets to see this, this Apollo sample, you know, since the astronauts took it on the Moon. And they, they went there and put their life on the line to bring these samples back for us, right? And now, now here you are opening it, looking at it, dissecting it, being part of this incredible team of, of other scientists who are going to, you know, you are helping to, to enable their science, right? Like, it’s just, yeah, it’s, it’s incredible. It’s I, I’m so thankful that I get to be part of this team, that I get to help with this, that I get to work on the Moon every single day, right? Even if you wake up and you’re in a bad mood because you, I don’t know, didn’t sleep well, right, you go get your coffee and then you go up in the lunar lab and you’re like, oh, the Moon is right here. Like…
Host: I’m touching the Moon.
Juliane Gross:… I’m touching the Moon. I mean, I have gloves on and all that stuff, but right, like, I’m like, oh my God. You know, it’s just, it’s absolutely incredible. And the people I work with are fantastic.
Host: Yeah.
Juliane Gross: And, and I learn so much and it’s, it’s really great. Yeah.
Host: Yeah. What a fantastic conversation this has been guys. I, I’ve really, I really enjoyed getting the chance to, to talk to you both about this moment and about where we are and just what’s, what’s coming up. I mean, this is a, this is a big deal.
Juliane Gross: Yeah.
Host: Like what, what, you’re a part of, what you’re a part of, what your teams are a part of, what the, all these folks that you’re getting to be, to contribute to this moment is part of something bigger, and I hope you realize that and appreciate that, because it’s really, to me, it’s, it’s, it’s awe-inspiring. It’s, it’s very, very cool. So I appreciate you both coming on today to, to describe this. It sounds like you’re in the middle of all of it. [Laughter]
Juliane Gross: Oh yeah, no, I, I literally, I was just in the lab bagging little, little rock fragments so we can, you know, CT-scan them and we, we’re almost done with dissecting pass one, we still have three more, two more passes after this. And so, I literally got out of the lab 15 minutes before I came here, I was like, OK, I got to get ready. You know, I…
Host: I got to go do a podcast, I got to stop touching the Moon and go do a podcast. I really appreciate it because this is cool. I, but, it’s, it’s now, I think it’s it, it’s, we, I’m getting that energy now while you’re in it, right, so it’s like, this is, this is really historic. So to both of you, to Juliane and to Cindy, thank you so much for coming on. I had a blast.
Cindy Evans: Oh, yeah. No, thank. Yeah. Thank you. And I’m just like listening to Juliane talk about this. It makes me, I’m, I’m grinning ear to ear because it’s so exciting. And of course, for me, like one of the things that, that, you know, like I’m in a, I’ll be in a telecon with Juliane for astronaut training and she’ll say, well, I’m in the lunar lab, do you want me to take you on a tour? And then she’ll just, she’ll show our whole telecon, you know, some of the stuff that she’s uncovering. And so, so, so it’s just, so it’s so much fun. And so, thank you so much for, for hosting us in this discussion. It’s been really, really fun…
Host: Oh, I was happy to do it.
Cindy Evans:…to listen to everything that Juliane is doing and to answer a few questions about how, what it means for the future.
Juliane Gross:Yeah.
Host: Yeah. It’s a big deal. Thank you both.
Juliane Gross: Yeah, thank you so much for having us. This was super-fun. This was really, really fun to be here.
Host:Yeah, I’m glad you had a good time. I did too. Thanks guys. Take care.
Juliane Gross: You too.
Cindy Evans: OK, take care.
Host: Hey, thanks for sticking around. I hope you were as excited learning about this Apollo core sample, gas extraction and dissection; so cool, what a fascinating topic. And I got to ride off of some of the excitement of Juliane and Cindy who were just, it was, there was a lot of energy in this podcast today. So it was really exciting to talk to them. I hope you learned something from this and, and were, was as excited as I am. There’s of course a lot that you can check out and you can continue to follow this story at NASA.gov. You can also check out some of our other podcasts. We referenced episode 137; if you haven’t listened to that we would definitely recommend you go back and listen to that with Charis and Andrea when they opened up the first of the unopened Apollo samples. You can find us at NASA.gov/podcasts. You can listen to that episode or really any other in no particular order that we have in our full catalog of Houston We Have a Podcast. Also, you have to check out some of the other podcasts that we have across NASA. The entire agency has a lot of good shows, so make sure you check some of those out. If you want to talk to us specifically, Houston We Have a Podcast, we’re on the Johnson Space Center pages of Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram; just use the hashtag #AskNASA on your favorite platform to submit an idea for the show or maybe ask a question and make sure to mention it’s for us at Houston We Have a Podcast. This episode was recorded on April 22nd, 2022. Thanks to Alex Perryman, Pat Ryan, Heidi Lavelle, Belinda Pulido, Nilufar Ramji, and Jayden Jennings. And of course, thanks again to Cindy and Juliane for taking the time to come on the show. Give us a rating and feedback on whatever platform you’re listening to us on and tell us what you think of our show. We’ll be back next week.