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NASA and the Texas Economy

Season 1Episode 122Dec 13, 2019

Texas Comptroller of Public Accounts Glenn Hegar talks about managing finances for the Lone Star State and for its citizens. Hegar describes the economic impact of NASA on the state of Texas based on a report drafted by the Comptroller's office. HWHAP Episode 122.

NASA and the Texas Economy

NASA and the Texas Economy

If you’re fascinated by the idea of humans traveling through space and curious about how that all works, you’ve come to the right place.

“Houston We Have a Podcast” is the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center from Houston, Texas, home for NASA’s astronauts and Mission Control Center. Listen to the brightest minds of America’s space agency – astronauts, engineers, scientists and program leaders – discuss exciting topics in engineering, science and technology, sharing their personal stories and expertise on every aspect of human spaceflight. Learn more about how the work being done will help send humans forward to the Moon and on to Mars in the Artemis program.

For Episode 122, Texas Comptroller of Public Accounts Glenn Hegar talks about managing finances for the Lone Star State and for its citizens. Hegar describes the economic impact of NASA on the state of Texas based on a report drafted by the Comptroller’s office. This episode was recorded on November 4, 2019.

Houston, we have a podcast

Transcript

Gary Jordan (Host): Houston, we have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center Episode 122, “NASA and the Texas Economy.” I’m Gary Jordan. I’ll be your host today. On this podcast, we bring in the experts, scientists, engineers, astronauts, leaders, other parts of government– all to let you know what’s going on in the world of human spaceflight. Much of human spaceflight happens and is led right here at the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas. Of course, there are centers all over the U.S., all part of the federal agency that is NASA. Now even though NASA is a federal agency, there’s a lot of good that can occur at the state level depending on where the agencies are located. Now, recently the Texas Comptroller’s office, the office that sort of runs the finance end of things for the state tax collecting, accounting, treasury, writing checks, that sort of thing– they worked with NASA to publish an economic impact report that shows how NASA influences the Texas economy. The report highlights employment numbers, gross domestic product, and a lot of stuff that data junkies will love. It also highlights the center’s effects on education, tourism, and the future growth of the state. So, here to go into more detail on the economics of it all, is Texas Comptroller of Public Accounts, Glenn Hegar. Hegar was elected as the comptroller in November 2014. In his role, he’s essentially the Chief Financial Officer for the world’s 10th largest economy, overseeing the day-to-day financial operations as well as a larger picture for determining the best structure for Texas on managing finances for the state and for its citizens. Glenn gives a great overview on how this all works which sets the tone for going right into how NASA fits into the Lone Star State. So, here we go. The finance of the state of Texas and the economic impact from NASA with Comptroller Glenn Hegar. Enjoy.

[ Music ]

Host: Texas Comptroller, Glenn Hegar. Thank you so much for coming on Houston We Have a Podcast today.

Glenn Hegar: It’s great to be with you today.

Host: All right. So, big event we had pretty recently– I think back in September– you came to the Johnson Space Center to reveal this economic impact study which is going to be the sort of base of our discussion today. How did you enjoy the visit?

Glenn Hegar: Oh, the visit was fantastic. I was a little half embarrassed when the director asked me how many times have you been to the JSC, and of course someone who grew up on the northwest side of Houston and lives in Katy, just on the west side, I had to dunk my head a little bit and say as most people that live in a region sheepishly, this is my first visit. But let’s just say, after this visit, it will not be my last. So, looking forward to going back and taking my family because they were– I have three young kids– a 14, an 11, and 11-year-old and they were pretty jealous, needless to say. So, we are looking at the calendar to make a trip back. It was really remarkable. We learned a lot, talked to a lot of great people, seeing a lot of exciting things that are going on at JSC as well as just in the space program in general for NASA which was a very, very rewarding beneficial day. Not only for myself, but for my staff as well.

Host: Wonderful. Yeah. We’d love to have you. And that’s what we are going to talk about today. You came to the Johnson Space Center to talk about this report about how the Johnson Space Center is really positively influencing the Texas economy. So, we are going to go into the details of state economics and what this is all about. To set some context, though. I just wanted to go over your role as the Texas comptroller and what you do. You are based in the state capital of Austin, right?

Glenn Hegar: That’s correct. So I am based in Austin. And if you go back way in the beginning of time of Texas, I’m the 36th person that served in this capacity, and it’s actually an elected position. But I serve in the executive branch, in the comptroller’s office we have a lot of responsibilities and duties. We got about 26 divisions and 3000 employees. But if you look at our core constitutional mission, that mission is number one running the state treasury. And our state budget here in Texas. Texas as a state, if it was carved out– which we are not advocating from the nation, but if it was, it would be the 10th largest economy in the world. So, a very significant economy of Texas. So, as Texas with a state budget, whether it’s our federal dollars or our state dollars, all of this combined, ends up being roughly about $126 billion a year. And so, every single one of those dollars as the legislature puts into their appropriations act or how they are spent on the various categories of expenditures for state government, we make sure that every one of those 14 million payments gets made and also to make sure that they are going where they are supposed to be going. So, that’s one constitutional duty. A second one, and this is the one that always makes me nervous to tell people, I’m the tax collector here in Texas. So that’s the one where you– your head– you get a little nervous there, is there an exit when you are giving a speech. But number two, tax collection. And then number three, part of what we were there to talk about, JSC and the economic impact is what’s going on in all 12 economic regions. Texas, all of the metropolitan areas, the rural areas, all 254 counties, because each one of those pieces, you know, Houston, for example where JSC is at, the Houston metropolitan region, if that was just a state in and of itself, that would be roughly about the 14th largest state as far as economy in the United States. So, the point being, when you add that and the metroplex– Austin, where I’m based out of– south Texas, east, west, the central part of Texas, you bring it all together, and it’s roughly the 10th largest economy. And so, it’s important for us to constantly look over the data. Where Texas is at today, where is it going? What are some trends that we have seen in the past? Because my office tells the legislature how much money we think will come in the treasury over the two-year budget cycle when they are here in legislative session. And so that’s what I spend most of my time focused on just making sure where we are at today, what do we think is going in the next two years as far as job creation, revenues in the state of Texas to help give them guidance so we can have what’s called an accurate revenue forecast, so they can put a two-year budget together.

Host: Yeah. There’s– you are not making it sound easy at all. That’s a massive responsibility. That’s a lot of people in Texas to take care of. And you know, it’s that attention to detail that I find most fascinating when it comes to this sort of work. Just managing that. What does that mean? You know, how does that work with the team? You mentioned about 3000 people I think in the office?

Glenn Hegar: Yeah, that’s right.

Host: You know, splitting those duties and running through all of that.

Glenn Hegar: And we have a whole host of other things that we are responsible for, and not to kind of get into all of those. But– so, the point being is we have a lot of different things were they are setting state contracts for procurement purposes, a whole host of different things that flows through that agency, but the point being is I am very, very blessed that I’ve got a good executive team that has been working with me since I came into this job. A combination of people that have been in this agency for many years who have learned through entry staff all the way up through the ranks to now serving in the executive branch or my division directors. And so therefore, we have a good team. And as I tell people all the time, you know, it takes a team to be able to row the boat. To get everybody to where they need to go or, in JSC’s case, to get up to space and get people back safely and make all the various pieces that are working, it takes a good team. And I’m just really blessed to have a really great staff. So, I can you know, focus on my task and everybody focuses on theirs and hopefully you know, we are able to give the legislature what they need and inform the public of what’s going on about some exciting things in the economy here in Texas. Such as JSC.

Host: Yeah. I can absolutely relate. We say that all the time. Especially in human spaceflight, a big team not only here at Johnson Space Center, but we are working with people all across the world–

Glenn Hegar: That’s right. That’s right.

Host: — to make this a reality. I want to go little bit more into– I hate asking this question, because I feel like there’s not really a good answer. But, your day-to-day. You know, what it’s like being a Texas comptroller? I am– and the reason I say I hate asking it is because I find more and more that people really don’t typically have those day-to-day similar activities.

Glenn Hegar: No. I mean, that’s what I was about to say. I am about to conclude five years in this office, and I guess the question is I’ve yet to have two days that are similar. [Laughter] So, you know, I say that somewhat jokingly, but somewhat also very serious, is that part of my week is spent in the office here in Austin, which is where I’m at today and am for several days. Tomorrow I’m traveling to another city in Texas to give a speech. And then I’m traveling– so, being in executive branch position whether you are through an appointment running a state agency, or elected in my position, you end up going and talking to trade associations, different chamber events, all kinds of folks throughout the state of Texas about what– for us, more so– what’s going on in the state economy. So, I spent a lot of time on the road traveling. Also spend a lot of time dealing with issues within the agency. Obviously, as running an agency, also spend a lot of time dealing with the legislative members over in the legislative branch. Separate form of government, however, the fact is I’m engaged with them quite frequently on either issues that are in this agency and or making sure that they are informed so they can make better decisions. I think part of the reason I spend a lot of time doing that is I used to serve in the state legislature. So, I served in our Texas House for four years and our state Senate for eight years. And so, at least I come to have one advantage is that I understand the working process and what it takes to be able to accomplish what they need to do. And, you know, the one and only thing that they have to do every two years when they are in legislative session is pass the state budget. And so, the better informed they are with the economy, the revenues coming into the state and trends for future years, such as last session earlier this year, they dealt with school– public school finance and property taxes and those cost quite a bit of money. And so we are constantly trying to make sure that they are very informed. Because those decisions they are making are not just for this year, but they go– those decisions have implications for many, many years.

Host: That’s right. You’ve been involved it seems like in various different parts of the Texas state. And I know you were going to your background– you were born and raised in Texas.

Glenn Hegar: That’s right.

Host: You are Texas born and raised. What nudged you in the particular direction that you are going to eventually go to law and then work for the state?

Glenn Hegar: Well, I– like I said, I grew up northwest out of Houston, a little town called Hockley. You blink you miss it when you are driving down Highway 290. But we are about to be part of the Houston suburbs as Houston continues to grow with people. I mean it’s amazing to know that every morning when you wake up in Texas there’s about another 1100 people in Texas every day. So, my family moved here in the 1840s. So, I’m blessed to be sixth generation Texan. I grew up on a family farm out there. We still have our family farm. I enjoyed that way of life. However, my family had some other businesses, and I decided A&M was a good fit for me as an individual, but then also I decided to go to law school, and I never really had an interest in practicing law. But I had an interest in at least gaining that knowledge from a business perspective and going back and working with the family. But as I told my wife of 20 years, back several years ago when we first started dating, I made the point that I wanted to be involved in the elective process somehow. I didn’t know where that would be, and if it never came about that’s OK, but if there was an opportunity to serve in some capacity, I felt pulled in that direction. It’s kind of hard to explain why, but we all have certain things that we feel compelled to do. And so, back in 2002 there was a brand new state legislative district that was part of Fort Bend County, west of Houston, Waller County, which is where I grew up, and Wharton County, Highway 59 going southwest out of Houston. And so, I ran for the state legislature. Decided to continue to serve in the Senate, and then now serving in a different capacity in the executive branch. But I’ve always had an interest in numbers, data, what’s going on from those perspectives and how you take all these conflicting– sometimes conflicting pieces of data to– one data will tell you the economy is– ooh—is it not going to do so good in the next few years? And other data is showing you that it’s going to do really well. So how do you take those conflicting pieces and make sense out of it? Sometimes that conflicting information that you are getting. So, for me, here, at least in this office, I feel like it’s a really good fit for the personality that I have and wanting to be very policy driven because you know, the decisions that government makes has big implications on the lives that we live not just today, but literally for decades.

Host: Absolutely. And your service is definitely appreciated. You’ve gone through a lot of your responsibilities as comptroller so far. You did mention a little bit when you’re talking about your sort of hectic schedule and traveling a lot, I know when you visited Johnson Space Center, that was part of a tour for Texas.

Glenn Hegar: Yes.

Host: Now, what was that all about?

Glenn Hegar: So, five years ago, I got on the tour after my first session– legislative session in this job at which is 140 days, roughly. January through the end of May. And I told my staff, I said let’s get out and talk about the economy in all 12 economic regions of Texas. And so, I set out on a very ambitious fall tour of about 35, 37 cities. And after we wrapped up the tour of trying to maintain my day job, get out on the tour, also having a wife and three children and trying to stay married and raise my kids, I looked at my team, and I said, I don’t know who came up with this idea, but we are never doing thirty something cities again. And I think they were a little nervous when I said it, because they all wanted to say, well, that was your idea. I knew whose idea it was. And so, the point was I said, from here forward, I want to talk about important things to the state economy. So that was how the tour for Texas– and it literally was a tour of Texas– got started. But then after that, I decided let’s start talking about different industry sectors here that make up what the state economy is. So, we’ve talked about international trade, manufacturing, women owned businesses, the military installations here in Texas, the economic impacts that they have. And so, this fall, was focused on JSC, the economic impact of JSC to Texas. And then also I just wrapped up– finished visiting four universities that have really good programs. We have roughly 19 institutions of higher education at the local community college and the university level that have some type of program in cybersecurity. Which is really important not only for individuals, businesses, government, and how we are handling that real issue. So, this fall was focused on JSC and then also touring four universities and highlighting their cybersecurity programs.

Host: Wow. So, I guess when you got this nice view of what Texas is all about. When you talk about– if you had a snapshot of when you say this is what Texas is all about, this is what Texas economy is defined as, how do you say that? What do you put in that box?

Glenn Hegar: Yeah. I kind of put in that box, one, talking about how every morning when you wake up think about this for a week. I challenge people in every single speech I give, think about for a week every morning when you wake up, there’s another 1100 people in Texas today than when you went to bed yesterday. Now, not literally while you slept there was 1100 more people, but every day, there’s roughly somewhere around 1000 to 1200 people additionally in this state. Half of those are natural growth. Half of those are people that move here. And the reason that people are moving here, no different than my family did in the 1840s, they came here for economic opportunity. And then I talk about the jobs. That whether it’s when we had the downturn in the oil and manufacturing industries, back in 2015 and 2016. Unfortunately, the state lost 160,000 jobs in those two industry sectors. But what’s amazing, is that unlike sister energy states, whether it’s Louisiana, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Alaska, North Dakota, to name just a few, Texas still gained jobs. But it was because of the diversity of the Texas economy. You know, whether it’s JSC, what that has done not just in the Clear Lake area, the Houston area, but for the state of Texas. Whether it’s our ports, we are roughly nine percent of the nation’s economy– Texas is– of the U.S. economy. Yet, we are 20 percent of the entire exports out of this country. And so, we are a very large exporting state. And then no matter what whether it’s just down the road from JSC, the Texas Medical Center. You know, you have tens of thousands of people that go to work there every day.

Host: Right.

Glenn Hegar: Cutting edge technology that is being developed to help us live longer, to live healthier lives. And so, you know, you can replicate that across the state because of the diverse economy. And if you go back to that 2015–16 period, when we lost that 160,000 jobs in those two areas, Texas actually gained 173 overall. But that’s because of the diversity of the state economy. And then in the last 12 months, it’s amazing to know that men and women in Texas have created over 300,000 jobs in the last ten years over 2.5 million jobs. You go well, that sounds like so many. I don’t know what that means. Where out of the entire United States that’s roughly 25 percent of the job creation of the entire country has been here in the Lone Star State in the last ten years. And so, that is quite a bit of words I just said. But the point being is regardless of which industry sector we are in in Texas, we’ve seen pretty tremendous job growth and so the question is, is what can we do to make sure that we are going to keep that going in the right direction in the next five, ten, 15, 20, 40 years.

Host: See, that’s wonderful. And I can see why you had to go to so many different parts of Texas given that you talked about this diverse set of skills that contribute to the economy. I can see how that’s all coming together.

Glenn Hegar: Right.

Host: Are you done with the tour now? Or are you still having to go–

Glenn Hegar: I’m done– well, I’m done for this fall.

Host: OK.

Glenn Hegar: I’m going to get back on touring some other industry sectors in the spring. And we’ve got some refresh of our tour from our ports. We have done a reanalysis of that economic data and it’s been pretty phenomenal the increase in just the last few years. So, the tour is always going. It’s just a different phase and set.

Host: Wonderful. Well, let’s hone in on this one specific part of the economy, the Johnson Space Center.

Glenn Hegar: Yes.

Host: Let’s add some historical background first. How did this all start? How did we start coming together and start talking about the Johnson Space Center?

Glenn Hegar: Well part of this came about because some folks from my office and JSC were visiting about how we can potentially look at the economic impact that JSC has provided to the state of Texas. And you know, I can appreciate that as an entity that has provided tremendous growth– again, not just to Clear Lake, to Houston, the state of Texas, but also the nation and really changed the world from so many aspects. Is how do you quantify what is that economic impact? And I think there was some conversations with a couple of the military installations, some of the data that we’ve been putting out for them and going well, you know, how did you all come up with this? And they said well, actually, we called the Texas Comptroller’s office and Glenn Hegar, and this is something that they were willing to not only put together, but come out and highlight and talk about. And as when I was down in– at JSC, we had a discussion with some of the community leaders, and somebody asked, well, how does this differ from the other conversations and data that you put out before? And the thing that makes this different is that this is not something that JSC went and put together. It’s not something that they went and hired. We are not getting paid to do this. This is just something that we are willing to put together through our economic models and show it’s a third-party unbiased opinion of the tremendous impact. I think part of that came out of you know, the work that was doing of what is the economic impact that Ellington Field provides. Which is just you know, a right there in the back door not just the other military installations. And so, once we had those initial conversations, we are more than willing to put the work together and I was more than happy to have an excuse to come down and tour the facility and talk about it first on hand and talk to some of the other community members there. You know, the private sector that is doing a tremendous amount of work there at JSC and really providing a significant impact for jobs, economic output. So that’s kind of how this came together.

Host: That’s right. And so, when you are defining what you want to focus on, what is it you want to capture as part of this economic report? You kind of alluded to it a little bit, but what were those things that you really wanted to highlight? What encompassed the entire impact?

Glenn Hegar: Well, so first and foremost, you know, we have several conversations to kind of get a better grasp of back and forth. Some of the things that we could potentially look at. And so a couple things that you know snapshots that we want to highlight. Number one, what is the economic impact of the Johnson Space Center? And roughly NASA’s Texas operation contributes $4.7 billion to the state economy. And that also contributes about 52,000 jobs just in 2018. On the personal income that was garnered from those 52,000 jobs is about $3.7 billion. And so, when you just talk about that in that snapshot, and before I came down there, I went back and watched President Kennedy’s speech at Rice, when he announced this. And it was exciting to watch that. I didn’t get to see it live. I wasn’t around at that time, so you know, we have all seen the historical context and the anniversaries and all those things. But it was nice to see this. And I made the point when I was there is that as we were there on the anniversary and we talked about the prior 50-plus years, what makes me more excited after I could see what was going on at JSC firsthand just a small snapshot for a few hours that I was there, is yeah, we can talk about the last 50 years. And we can talk about today’s $4.7 billion impact on the state economy, 52,000 jobs, $3.7 billion in take-home pay. We can talk about the 1.1 million visitors that comes and visits JSC every single year and two thirds of those are from out of state. What those dollars derive in revenue or whether it’s partnerships with local businesses you know, that is I think 163-plus businesses that have partnerships and spend almost $200 million with our partnerships with our universities here in Texas and the grants that are being provided over $30 million in grants every year. But when you compile all that together, it’s not just every year, it’s not just the past 50-plus years, but the excitement of what the next 50-plus is going to come in the future. You know? And just– I asked my team. I said, give me just a snapshot of a few of the things that have happened that the partnership of JSC NASA some of the cutting-edge technology that would not exist today if it wasn’t for the NASA program. I mean it’s just that list. I mean, they sent me this huge list. And I thought I don’t know how I capsule– how can I make this in just a few talking points? Because the list just goes on, and on, and on. I mean it just really is amazing. And you know it’s a great story to tell and it’s really a privilege to be able to get out talk about this not just at that one moment in time, but as I travel the state, people bring up questions and it allows me the ability to interweave, “hey I was just at JSC, did you know A, B, and C?” And people are really amazed because you just don’t quite have any concept. You know it’s a big impact, you just don’t know how big.

Host: Yeah. So, what do you see, then? Based on the numbers that we’ve crunched about you talked about the many jobs.

Glenn Hegar: Right.

Host: You’ve talked about the other, you know, private industry that spins off from the government presence there. You talked about this future that’s coming down. What do you see in terms of growth?

Glenn Hegar: Well, I think– wow. I think the list really goes on and on. I mean just while I was there for a little bit, you know, the different private sectors that are having projects and research that is going on at the space station right now. You know? It’s just amazing what I think its memory serves offhand, you know, 50 different projects that are going on or how can you test different things in space. Then have to bring them back. Or how can you test them in technology? You know, it’s almost like the computing systems where we hold a phone in our hand and that computing system is greater than the first computer that was as big as a room. You know? And as technology gets better and the capabilities that we are able to do in researching of how space impacts human beings, and how do we make it safer? And how do we you know, eventually potentially have some type of exploration that is going deeper and further than we have ever been before? And also, for a potential travel for individuals you know in the separation between what is NASA’s mission and what is the mission of that which is the private sector? But obviously the two are completely interwoven and together. And so, I think you know really, you hate to use the old saying, but it’s true the sky is the limit. And I think you know what’s amazing is really listening to the men and women that are working there today and their dedication and excitement about what they do. If we all had that much excitement about our jobs, wow. Life would be a lot easier.

Host: That’s one of my favorite things about working here is you talk to different people and you ask them what they do and they just light up and they are so excited to tell you all the different things that they are working on at the Johnson Space Center.

Glenn Hegar: That’s right. And you know it’s not just the people that were put in front of me, but if I– I’m always the type that I’m asking people off the beaten path that I may run into your say hi that weren’t part of the official tour and–

Host: Yeah.

Glenn Hegar: — so, you get a little bit better glimpse of how excited are people. What are they like? And you know, I think what you just said is completely true. But everybody had that exact opinion and thoughts.

Host: Yeah. And so, we talked about this different you know private sector opportunities. The business itself, they are interwoven between government and private sector. We are trying to build this low Earth orbit economy so naturally you would want private businesses to do that. And a lot of them are already here local to at least the Webster area.

Glenn Hegar: Right.

Host: You’ve got things like NanoRacks, you’ve got things– you know, different companies that are physically here. And part of the Texas economy. You mentioned a couple other things, too. I think, you know, influencing education. I know part of your tour specifically, your tour of Texas was going to those universities and see how they are affecting the economy, but even NASA has those influence on the–

Glenn Hegar: That’s right.

Host: — on the presence of the universities themselves.

Glenn Hegar: No, that’s exactly right. It’s really amazing once I got to kind of looking down into the data and seeing more that the partnerships with NASA and 16 different universities. You know? And this kind of originally started and as President Kennedy said, the partnerships between federal government, NASA, and Rice University saw it as a partnership that could not only help Rice University, but it has blossomed over that time to move way beyond were 16 different universities and in 2018 alone, NASA provided $31 million in grants or if you look at roughly since 2010, $375 million in grants in research that is going on to not only help NASA not only help universities, but really help mankind in a whole lot of different ways that we can’t even begin to fathom. So, you know, there was– exciting about part of the report where we can look and highlight from many different angles some of the benefits that are going on. And one spinoff of that is we put out a couple of articles every month or so about two different issues that are extremely important to the state of Texas. Whether it may be budgeting and maybe transportation, public education, a whole host of different things. Not only did it form the legislature, but the public in general. And so, we are putting together an article for some time in the spring probably, on the commercialization of some of the technology type issues that are going on there at NASA. And so as a result of coming there, we are putting another spinoff article talking about some of the really important aspects that NASA has provided and JSC in particular to hear not only to Texas, but again to the U.S. and really to the world.

Host: Oh, wonderful. Do you find that it’s multidisciplinary in the sense that you know, you’ve got a little bit of engineering, you got a little bit of medical–

Glenn Hegar: Oh, absolutely.

Host: Yeah.

Glenn Hegar: Yeah.

Host: Yeah.

Glenn Hegar: Yeah. You know, and that’s– and I will tell you, as growing up over the years and seen different– our different astronauts, it’s been really remarkable and I was thinking about this at some point after being there, that not everyone comes to where they are at from one specific field or discipline. You’ve got to have a team of people that have different disciplines. And I think you know, really, our astronauts highlight that more than anything else because if you look at their different backgrounds, and then you take it beyond which is what people are not quite as familiar with, all of the research that goes on behind-the-scenes. That’s the most visible to the general public. But you take that beyond, it is extremely multiple disciplined. And you think about all the different aspects of what it takes to run a program like JSC or NASA is really– remarkable.

Host: Yeah. There’s a lot of moving parts to it. And I know, you know, we have these influences in all of these different sectors and we already talked about this, this growth of the area around JSC itself. And you even mentioned Houston itself is growing. You know, it’s starting to encompass what was–

Glenn Hegar: Right.

Host: — your farm, right?

Glenn Hegar: Right, right.

Host: Yeah. So, we are talking about this big growth. I know when you were here you did mention that Johnson Space Center has an impact on the local community. Which I think makes sense. Right?

Glenn Hegar: Right.

Host: We already talked about businesses that are around here.

Glenn Hegar: Yeah. Of course.

Host: But you did say that it has an influence on Texas as a whole. So what does that mean?

Glenn Hegar: Well, essentially, you know, number one is yes, JSC’s impact is going to be much more felt right there in the backyard. You know? As you’re driving up to the entrance of the JSC you see the stores in the restaurants and if you go during lunchtime, it’s going to be NASA employees, JSC employees, and or the private sector. But those impacts go wider and wider and wider. And you know I make the same point just to kind of highlight another big industry sector there in Houston, that was front and visible for so many people is the port.

Host: Yeah.

Glenn Hegar: Well, those goods that are brought in and brought out of the Port of Houston they are not all created and derived for exportation in the Houston area. And they are not only destination for just Houston. You know, they are spread throughout the state of Texas. And so, that roughly as I was mentioning, $4.7 billion to the state economy and the 52,000 jobs yes, the jobs are mostly centered there at NASA, at JSC, however, they are spread throughout the state of Texas. And the private partners that JSC is working with our scattered throughout the state and scattered really throughout the nation. And so it has this huge impact from a financial standpoint not just right there in the core where operations are at, but across the state of Texas, and then you know, obviously there’s a few other facilities that are located but obviously the main one is right there at JSC, but there’s other facilities that are having an impact across the state of Texas, too.

Host: Yeah. It’s that downstream sort of thing, right?

Glenn Hegar: That’s right.

Host: You come into Houston and then it kind of goes out from there. See, that’s fascinating.

Glenn Hegar: Yeah. And you know, I think it’s really important to highlight as well, that as I was– when I was down there I made this point several times, the percent of people at JSC that have a bachelor’s degree the percent of people that have a Master’s degree, and then those industries that are associated with JSC I mean have an average pay of two to three times higher than that of the average pay of industries here in the state of Texas. And on the Gulf Coast region. And so, two to three times higher you know you’re making generational impacts not only to those families today but impacts to families over future generations because of the higher salary capabilities for you know, those children to go off to have different degrees to be associated with things and that multiple discipline. I mean, what’s interesting to me all the time, is you know, you ask somebody who is either high school or college what do you want to do when you grow up? And they may just look at you. And I tell them well don’t worry about it. You know, I’m almost 50 and I’m still trying to figure out what I want to do when I grow up. And then I come back and make the point that you know, good, bad, or indifferent, so many people follow in the footsteps of either family members or someone that they know. But what’s interesting is you bring up the point the multiple disciplines that are there at the Johnson space Center, people are associated with folks that are in a wide different range of fields. And so, you know, people get to see that and think well, I can do that, too. You know? It’s beyond just what’s in the household.

Host: That’s right. So, do you see, you have these people coming in going into these higher-paying jobs—you have, that are cross disciplinary, right?

Glenn Hegar: Right.

Host: Is not just focused on one different thing. I mean going back to this tour where you’re going on Texas, do you feel that this influence of human spaceflight of that presence in Houston, do you think that affects other businesses around Houston, maybe even throughout Texas? Just the presence of NASA.

Glenn Hegar: No, I think it does. I mean– and that presence, you know, it’s interesting because if you ask that question today or if you asked that question 50-plus years ago, because you know, as you mentioned, Houston is moving out to our family farm northwest of Houston, well, when NASA was– when JSC was getting started, there wasn’t a whole lot of growth all around.

Host: Right.

Glenn Hegar: You know, Houston is continuous or the different cities in the Houston area are continuous to whether you are going north, back to the west, or to the south. You know? It’s communities all around in that growth. And so you know, I think it’s interesting that even though there was gaps in the population at times, everybody quite knew what JSC was doing to the Houston area. But today, you know, there’s so many different industry sectors, you can say without a doubt I mean $4.7 billion, 52,000 jobs, that has a huge impact not just in a region but across the state. But I think one of the things that this study is showing and trying to highlight that those impacts are just as real today even though Texas was probably not the 10th largest economy 50-plus years ago.

Host: Yeah.

Glenn Hegar: But as a bigger economy today, you know, out of you know, the $1.8 trillion economy of Texas, and you can say oh, well that $4.6 million is that really that big to $1.8 trillion? No, it’s having a huge impact. And I think you need to put a spotlight on it because you know, as I was touring manufacturing, just a little over year ago, and what we’re talking about is really cutting edge manufacturing. And there was a lot of misnomers that manufacturing is going overseas and there’s no growth in manufacturing and I pointed out many times yes, the jobs in manufacturing have gone down by 19 percent in the last 20 years, but the [Gross Domestic Product] GDP output has gone up by almost 90 percent. And so my point being is what metric are you looking at? If you know. And so again, yes, we may not be sending people to the Moon today, we may not be sending them to Mars tomorrow, but there is cutting edge technology things that are occurring to get those things to happen plus everything in between of technology cutting edge capabilities that are really having significant impacts. And I think you know, we need to continue to highlight that because what JSC is doing, kind of like my point with the manufacturing, is if we just took that one data point of number of jobs being lost, but there really—is automation is what’s happening. And technology is getting better to where one person their job paid today is at a much higher scale kind of like being at JSC where it’s two to three times higher than the average pay across the state of Texas. You know, we need to highlight those really high-paying jobs creativity of what you are having an impact not just in a region, not just an estate, but across the nation.

Host: See, that’s big. And you know, a lot of this like you mentioned, was you know, we are looking back, but you did mention again, we are looking forward, too.

Glenn Hegar: Right.

Host: We are looking for opportunities. We are looking for growth. You talk about there’s people moving to Texas all the time. It’s rapidly growing. So, taking this data that we’ve talked about today, all the different parts of how JSC is influencing the Texas economy and then taking that snapshot of the Texas economy together. Moving forward, what do you see in terms of human spaceflight’s effect on Texas’s economy, and what Texas may look like in the future?

Glenn Hegar: Well, Texas, you know, we are roughly 28 million-plus people in the state of Texas. And more than likely, all the demographics look and show that Texas is probably going to move closer to 45 to 48 million people here in the state of Texas over the course of the next several decades. By roughly 2045, 2050. So, if you think traffic congestion is bad now, just wait. [Laughter] But with that being said, just– I had a lunch meeting and I was teasing two guys that are business partners that were at this large lunch meeting I was at, and I said which one of you drove? And they said yeah, we don’t ride together. And one of them said I just hitched a ride in my drone. Well his point was just kind of joking obviously, he can’t do that today. But the point is you know, traffic, and so as I say, wait for traffic, but you never know what exciting things are going to happen in the course of the next five, ten, and 15 years that will hopefully alleviate some of that traffic. And you know, all in getting at is I think we talk about what we think is going to happen, but the amazing thing is wow, you can’t– and I highlighted this while I was there. You know, could President Kennedy really have envisioned what JSC became when he announced it that day at Rice University? There’s no way.

Host: Yeah.

Glenn Hegar: There’s no way. And the same point is we could begin– and it’s exciting and fun to try to guess what 50 years from now is going to be, but you know, we can’t even begin to imagine that far out. And it’s exciting because if people got to see kind of some of the behind-the-scenes that I get to see, or as you talk about in the podcast, through you know different series that you are putting out, it’s really exciting because it’s almost just unimaginable of what that may become.

Host: Yeah. Especially now. I think even now more so than especially in years recent, I mean this is a very exciting time. We just– we are recording this on November 4. Boeing just had a pad abort test very recently.

Glenn Hegar: Yeah.

Host: They are entering this space. We are talking about commercial space.

Glenn Hegar: Right.

Host: Getting businesses involved. You know, looking forward to Texas’s involvement, we talked a lot about Texas, but I think what’s really exciting particularly for Texas is that the space industry itself is predicted to be at– and I’ve seen this from multiple sources– about $1 trillion business. A trillion. So it’s huge. So being a part of that, what does that mean for the state of Texas? Being specifically in the space industry?

Glenn Hegar: Well, it’s really important because you know, as I mentioned, I think more than anything else, when you look at the employees there at JSC whether it’s the public or the private sector, you know, 96 percent have bachelor’s degrees, 43 percent have Masters or higher degrees. Which is a way higher rate than what is in the region of the state of Texas. And so when you talk about the industry moving to become $1 trillion industry, that means you have a significant number of people with Bachelor’s, with Masters, with PhD’s, that are very high skilled in their area. Also, in the different [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math] STEM fields, and the capability to have ripple effects throughout the state economy, and that trillion dollars you know, that is directly within the industry. But it has a ripple effect throughout multiple other industry sectors that can have a huge impact not just in Texas but across the nation.

Host: That is significant. Glenn, do you feel good, I guess thinking about Texas and JSC just everything that we talked about today? In the future of especially the Texas economy?

Glenn Hegar: No, I think it’s really– you know it’s really bright. I think the biggest issue for policymakers is that we’ve got to be able to make sure that we are making the right decisions whether it’s in public education, higher education making sure that higher education is more affordable. Unfortunately, it’s become a lot less affordable here over the course of the last decade. And so that’s a big concern. Especially as demographics– you know, it’s amazing as I said, 1100 people a day, half of those people are moving to Texas, and roughly 20 percent of the people that are moving here to the state of Texas are from somewhere internationally. All across the world are moving to the state of Texas for an economic opportunity. And part coming back to, we need to make sure that we are having an education system that is able to educate the workforce for tomorrow. Whether it is in your industry, other industries, because you know, people are moving to Texas to create businesses or corporate relocations because we are more useful demographic roughly one in ten children in the entire United States calls Texas home. That’s a really amazing number. One in ten across the entire United States. And so, what my point is, we as policymakers need to make sure that we are making the right decisions not just for today, but for literally future generations for public education, higher education. Whether it’s also our road systems or unfortunately, as we saw in the Houston region just a couple years ago with hurricane Harvey, how are we dealing with impacts for flood control purposes which you know, we are trying to deal with that and grapple with that. And many people are still recovering. And so how do we deal with some of these bigger issues to also make sure that again, we can allow the industry to continue to thrive in the future.

Host: That’s right. And Glenn, we are going to put our trust in you to make that happen for all of us citizens of Texas. Because really we are going to need a lot of people. We a lot coming up especially in human spaceflight.

Glenn Hegar: That’s right.

Host: Where, you know, we are returning to the Moon as part of NASA’s Artemis program. It’s going to be a sustainable program, a long-term endeavor and like we mentioned many times, we have a lot of commercial opportunities as well. It’s just the landscape itself is going to grow exponentially and we are really putting our faith in you to make this all happen. So–

Glenn Hegar: It is. And one of the things that I was really excited to hear more about while I was there, is the number of teachers that comes through the different partnerships as well as with partnerships for say for example, the Texas Aerospace scholars. You know, the ability of kids to go through the interactive online courses to be able to come down to JSC for the different visits for summer experiences for high school students, because I think we’ve got to do– and I think JSC is doing their part, but I think the rest of the state you know, and I’m talking about the state government in particular, we need to do better jobs of trying to highlight the benefits of the different career paths that people who are needed to work in Johnson Space Center and NASA because as we talked about earlier, it is a very, very multiple disciplinary field that takes to make all of this happen. And, you know, when I got back I had a 14-year-old who was not very happy with me when my kids sometimes ask every Sunday night, what’s the week ahead? They want to know what days are you gone, where you going? I purposely left off my visit to Johnson Space Center, because I knew I was going to have a 14-year-old who loves meteorology who loves airplanes, who loves– she loves Marine biology, and so, you know, it’s interesting how a lot of those things are part of NASA. And she was not happy with me when I– I said don’t worry we are going back. I’m going to take you. It’s all good. We are going to learn more about it. And my point in part just for me to not really appreciate the different programs that are there for high school students and for teachers to be able to engage their students to get people excited because as you mentioned, as the industry space moves to $1 trillion industry, it’s going to have to have a lot of very high skilled people for employment in the future. And we need to make sure we are doing a better job to get those students excited and realize what the opportunities may be for them.

Host: That’s right. And you mentioned many of those education opportunities to get involved. I hope people check those out. And really a lot of the jobs and the industry itself is going to grow. And there’s a lot of opportunity in Texas. Comptroller Glenn Hegar, thank you so much for coming on Houston, We Have a Podcast and talking about all these different elements of how Johnson Space Center is influencing the Texas economy. The Texas economy as a whole very exciting future we have. I really appreciate your time.

Glenn Hegar: Great to be with you today. Thank you for what all you do.

[ Music ]

Host: Hey. Thanks for sticking around. Really hope you enjoyed this conversation with Comptroller Glenn Hegar about the economics of the state of Texas and how NASA really fits into that picture. It’s the NASA Johnson Space Center that’s here in Houston, Texas. You can find us at nasa.gov/johnson. If you love podcasts, we’ve got a great website for that, nasa.gov/podcasts. And if you want to really go into the nitty-gritty of the report that we just highlighted today, that’s at comptroller.texas.gov. You might have to do a little bit of navigation when you get there, but if you click on economy and then scroll down to statewide economic data, you will find NASA’s report among a list of other reports from the state. You can follow us on social media. We are the NASA Johnson Space Center. On Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Use the hashtag #askNASA on your favorite platform to submit an idea for the show. Just make sure to mention it’s for Houston, We Have a Podcast. This episode was recorded on November 4, 2019. Thanks to Alex Perryman, Pat Ryan, Norah Moran, Belinda Pulido, Beth Weissinger, and to Cory Chandler from the Texas Comptroller’s office for helping to bring us all together. And thanks again to Comptroller Glenn Hegar for taking the time to come on the show. We will be back next week.