“Houston, We Have a Podcast” is the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, the home of human spaceflight, stationed in Houston, Texas. We bring space right to you! On this podcast, you’ll learn from some of the brightest minds of America’s space agency as they discuss topics in engineering, science, technology and more. You’ll hear firsthand from astronauts what it’s like to launch atop a rocket, live in space and re-enter the Earth’s atmosphere. And you’ll listen in to the more human side of space as our guests tell stories of behind-the-scenes moments never heard before.
Episode 12 features Ellen Ochoa, Director of the NASA Johnson Space Center, who talks about human space exploration: what we’re doing here in Texas to make it a possibility, how we’re working with commercial and international partners, and what the future has in store for a human presence in space. This episode was recorded on September 7, 2017.
Transcript
Gary Jordan (Host):Houston, We Have a Podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, Episode 12: “Leading Human Space Exploration.” I’m Gary Jordan and I’ll be your host today. So on this podcast we bring in the brightest minds at NASA– scientists, engineers, astronauts– all to let you know the coolest parts about what’s going on today at America’s space agency. So today, we’re talking with Ellen Ochoa. She’s the director of the NASA Johnson Space Center. Yes, the whole center, here in Houston, Texas, and also a former astronaut. She was the first Hispanic woman in space, with over 41 days in space over 4 missions. We had a great discussion about human space exploration, what we’re doing here in Texas to make it a possibility, how we’re working with commercial and international partners, and what the future has in store for a human presence in space. So with no further delay, let’s go light speed and jump right ahead to our talk with Dr. Ellen Ochoa. Enjoy.
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Host: Well, Ellen, thanks for– so much for coming on the show today. I know you’re really busy, especially because this is just– this is the week after we’re reopening after Harvey, so there’s just a lot going on right now and you’re kind of smack dab in the middle of it. How’s that been?
Ellen Ochoa: Well, we have a great team, which is fortunate.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: Because we got a lot of work done in our facilities once the storm subsided enough that we could get our facility managers in. And we worked over 700 work orders of things that needed to be fixed for people to come back to work on Tuesday, right after labor day.
Host:Now way.
Ellen Ochoa: But, it all got done. There was only a couple of areas where people couldn’t come back to their normal workspace, and it didn’t affect very many people, and we were easily able to find other places for them. So, the main impact, just like in organizations all over Houston, is that we have employees, people who work in our community here, who were of course greatly impacted– homes flooded, lost their possessions, lost vehicles.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And that’s really the long term impact that we’re seeing from this storm. But our folks really pitched in to help out those folks as much as possible early on, and then we just want to make sure that as the weeks and months go by we’re still there to help them out.
Host:Absolutely. I know it’s still going on right now. I know a lot of my friends– we started like a little support group to see who’s okay, who’s not, who needs stuff. I know the [ indistinct ] was open for a little bit, taking donations and that kind of thing. So, it’s just– it’s cool to see all the community coming together and doing all of this. It’s been quite a– quite a cool thing to see, really.
Ellen Ochoa: Yes.
Host:But, you kind of have a perspective like no other, right? Because you’re the director here at the johnson space center so you see a little bit of everything. Is that kind of a fair way to say what your role it? Like, you see everything.
Ellen Ochoa: I think that’s one of the great things about the job is you do see everything that has to come together to make all the missions happen, and then, of course, it’s in just a really wide variety of areas.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Ellen Ochoa: And i have much better appreciation of everything it takes than i did when i was in the astronaut office. I saw just maybe a small portion of it, really.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Ellen Ochoa: And now, i do have the opportunity to see a much broader view, as well as of course we work with other centers, we work with international partners, we work with companies, so it goes even well beyond JSC.
Host:That’s perfect. That’s exactly what i was hoping to get into today, just kind of the– because that’s really– really, we’ve been talking to different segments of JSC throughout this– the past couple episodes of this podcast, but really haven’t seen the full scope of everything that’s going on– but, just in the johnson space center in general. I mean, we haven’t really even talked too much about that here on the podcast, so i mean, where is the johnson space center? We say Houston, Texas, but where is it? What’s the history behind it?
Ellen Ochoa: Well, it’s in the southeast portion of Houston.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: When it was first– the land was first designated for it, it was really way outside the city. And of course, the city has sort of grown to encompass.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: It was back in 1961 when Houston was announced as this is going to be the location of the new manned spacecraft center. And then, about a year later is when the first employees came. Some of them transferred mainly from Langley research center in Virginia.
Host:Hmm.
Ellen Ochoa: And then, there were some new hires, but they were in a building that is essentially inside the loop. And so, while this land had been determined nothing was built yet so they had to build it. And so, it was in 1963 when we actually opened for business on this site where we are today.
Host:Huh. Wow. So it was just a– did they just lease a building and just kind of start up operations here and just kind of get the ball rolling for the first two years, i guess?
Ellen Ochoa: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Host:All right. Wow.
Ellen Ochoa: It’s the parks and– there’s a park– it’s parks and recreation building now.
Host:Oh, fantastic.
Ellen Ochoa: And they still– they have some pictures of the early NASA days in the building today.
Host:I was flipping through a book one time that actually showed some pictures of that.
Ellen Ochoa: Yeah.
Host:This is where everything sort of started.
Ellen Ochoa: Right.
Host:And I’ve been meaning to stop by, but i actually i never got it. I just knew– i knew there was something else, some other part that used to be– not necessarily the johnson space center, because even before it was the johnson space center it wasn’t called that for a while, right?
Ellen Ochoa: It was the manned spacecraft center.
Host:Manned spacecraft center, yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: Up until 1973.
Host:Exactly. But, it was– they purchased the– it was farmland originally, right?
Ellen Ochoa: Yes, yeah. It was– it was way out a way from the city, yeah.
Host:Yeah, there was really nothing around there, right?
Ellen Ochoa: Mm-hmm.
Host:But, except for the lake and everything. But now, it’s grown so much, right? So now, we’re one of many centers– ten, right? We’re one of ten centers.
Ellen Ochoa: Yeah, mm-hmm.
Host:So i mean, there’s just a lot of different sections that make up the whole agency of NASA. So what’s Johnson’s role, then? What’s in that grand scheme of things?
Ellen Ochoa: Well, we were called the manned spacecraft center when we started and that really is our role to lead human space exploration for the agency, really for the country.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Ellen Ochoa: And that is– continues to be our role. It has been our role throughout our history and continues to do that. So we both develop human spacecraft and then we fly missions using those spacecraft.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: So at different points in our history we focused more on development, and other times more on ops, and i would say right now there’s just a whole lot of both.
Host:Wow.
Ellen Ochoa: We’re doing both– obviously we’re operating the international space station.
Host:Right.
Ellen Ochoa: And so, we’ve been doing that continuously with people on board for almost 17 years.
Host:That’s right.
Ellen Ochoa: And so, we’re operating every minute of every day with people in space, but we also have more development going on than at any time then maybe in the very first few years of our history.
Host:Wow.
Ellen Ochoa: With the Orion spacecraft here–
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: –with the commercial crew program, where we work with both Boeing and SpaceX.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Ellen Ochoa: And there’s a lot of other smaller developments, but those are the big ones. And so, it’s really quite an exciting time. So, we need to understand what it takes to build spacecraft, and what it takes to keep humans healthy inside spacecraft, and performing well.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Ellen Ochoa: We select and protect the astronauts, we plan, train, and fly for missions.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Ellen Ochoa: We have expertise that is very unique to humans in space, like all the space walking expertise across the agency.
Host:Oh, wow.
Ellen Ochoa: So, here at johnson space center, we’re really responsible for all of that.
Host:Wow. So, okay, let’s kind of break that down. So we have operations, we have development, we have the astronaut corps. Let’s start at operations. Really, i would say the epicenter of that is probably mission control, right? That’s the whole idea of operations, right?
Ellen Ochoa: Yes.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: Everything it takes– i would say mission control is the third leg, right?
Host:Oh, okay.
Ellen Ochoa: It’s planning for missions, training for missions, and then actually flying for missions.
Host:There you go, okay. Cool.
Ellen Ochoa: Yes. And by training, it’s training the astronauts and training the flight control system, flight controllers and that.
Host:Oh, yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: So the whole system with mcc, ground and flight.
Host:Okay, so that’s called the flight operations, right?
Ellen Ochoa: Yes. Right, right.
Host:That’s really what that is, and it’s just making sure that everything is just going smoothly. We are operating, we’re flying, we’re doing right now, right?
Ellen Ochoa: Exactly.
Host:So, in terms of development, i know– you mentioned the Orion. So, we’re developing the Orion. Are we doing that just at the johnson space center? Or is that kind of a wider effort?
Ellen Ochoa: Well, we are– we’re the host center for that.
Host:Okay.
Ellen Ochoa: So, we have the program office here. We work very closely with Lockheed, which is our prime contractor.
Host:Hmm.
Ellen Ochoa: And then, there are of course other centers involved, other NASA centers, that the primary one would be Glenn research center because they have a role in working with the European space agency. They sort of play that integration role.
Host:Oh.
Ellen Ochoa: The European space agency is providing a service module portion of Orion.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And Glenn’s the primary interface between Europeans space agency and the Orion program.
Host:Wow. So how much– how much are you as director involved in all of these relationships– relationships between centers, relationships between international partners– how are you involved in that?
Ellen Ochoa: Well, the Orion program manager reports to me.
Host:There you go.
Ellen Ochoa: So i feel absolutely responsible for the success of the program.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: Now, day to day, they work that within the Orion program.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Ellen Ochoa: So, day to day, they’re working all of those relationships.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: But Janet Kavandi, who is the director at Glenn, and of course came from johnson space center. She was an astronaut here as well.
Host:Oh, cool.
Ellen Ochoa: We are in meetings together on Orion, reviews and status reports, and all of that kind of thing.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And I’m actually going to Germany later this month–
Host:Oh, wow.
Ellen Ochoa: –Bremen, Germany, which is where the European service module is being assembled and tested. So it’s actually my first opportunity to see their manufacturing and assembly operations over there.
Host:Oh, okay. So you have to travel to go see how everything is going, because you said, you know, Orion– you said that’s where– we’re centered here, right? We’re centered at the johnson space center.
Ellen Ochoa: Right.
Host:That’s kind of where we’re going out of, but we have to work with all of these different pieces to make it come together. And so going out to see the facilities and i know there’s different testing going on at different centers, specifically at NASA, right?
Ellen Ochoa: Sure.
Host:So you got certain testing going on at Kennedy, certain testing going on at Glenn. And so, johnson oversees all of that, is that true?
Ellen Ochoa: Yes.
Host:Wow. Amazing.
Ellen Ochoa: On the Orion program, mm-hmm.
Host:So what about commercial crew? That’s kind of a joint effort as well, right?
Ellen Ochoa: Yes. So, in terms of the actual program office, it’s a combination of Kennedy space center and johnson space center.
Host:Oh, okay.
Ellen Ochoa: It’s about half and half if you look at the people. The program manager is a Kennedy space center employee, although she came from johnson, and so it’s really quite a close collaboration between our two centers to run that program.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And then, Marshall space flight center plays a role as well, because of their expertise in main propulsion systems. And then, of course, they have contracts with the two companies that we are using to develop these services.
Host:Right.
Ellen Ochoa: Boeing and SpaceX.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: So they work daily with those companies.
Host:And where are Boeing and SpaceX kind of centered? Do they work on one of– some of the centers? Or do they have their own facilities?
Ellen Ochoa: Boeing is primarily using a facility at Kennedy space center.
Host:Okay.
Ellen Ochoa: It used to be one of the space shuttle facilities.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: So we used to call it the orbiter processing facility, but now it’s being used by Boeing.
Host:Cool.
Ellen Ochoa: And then, SpaceX has their facility out in Hawthorne, California.
Host:All right. Okay, so everywhere. We’re really all over the place to make this come together. And commercial crew– i mean, the whole idea behind that program is to, i guess, to launch America, right? We’re talking about bringing in private companies, SpaceX and Boeing, to send our astronauts up to the international space station, right?
Ellen Ochoa: Exactly.
Host:Yeah, and right now we have a relationship with them and we’re trying to get this going in house. I mean, from your viewpoint, how is– what’s kind of the landscape as it is right now for commercial crew?
Ellen Ochoa: Oh, they’re making progress every week.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: Some of it you see in the news. A lot of it are technical reviews that you’re not actually going to read about.
Host:Sure.
Ellen Ochoa: But, when they do more visible tests or they have some sort of milestone– Boeing sort of unveiled the suit that they’re going to wear on launch and landing and there’s been one picture of the SpaceX one as well.
Host:Yeah, that’s right, we’re getting hints.
Ellen Ochoa: That was sent out. And one of the interesting things about Boeing is, of course, both companies were able to propose how they plan to do operations.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Ellen Ochoa: What Boeing chose to do initially was really sort of have johnson space center personnel kind of subcontract to them. So we are are actually doing their operations initially so that they can focus on the development and testing of the actual spacecraft and the integration with the rocket.
Host:Oh, wow.
Ellen Ochoa: So, here at johnson space center now, we have a Boeing mission simulator, we have another Boeing Starliner mockup in our space vehicle mockup facility that we can use for testing, and form, and fit, and things like that.
Host:Wow.
Ellen Ochoa: So, we have more of the Boeing equipment here and we’re much more involved in the operations just because of how they chose to do it in their model.
Host:Wow. All right. Yeah, making great progress, doing some amazing things. So that’s kind of like you’re– we kind of went through operations, we’re talking about development, there’s also some kind of support elements , too, right? We’re doing a lot of science here as well, right? So, we have– we’re looking at the astronauts and we have a whole program– the human research program, right– that’s kind of looking at what happens to the human body in space.
Ellen Ochoa: Yeah, we really have sort of two areas of science that we work on here at johnson space center.
Host:Okay.
Ellen Ochoa: And one is, as i mentioned earlier, we’re the lead for human health and performance in space.
Host:Okay.
Ellen Ochoa: So, we need to understand how does space change humans, and what are the risks to humans health, and then how do we mitigate those risks?
Host:Right.
Ellen Ochoa: And so, we do host the human research program for the agency, which is the one that is really looking at how do we learn more about these risks doing research, and of course, a lot of the subjects are astronauts who are in space.
Host:Definitely.
Ellen Ochoa: And then, trying to understand how to mitigate those. We also, of course, just have day to day operations in terms of keeping our folks healthy within orbit.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Ellen Ochoa: Then, we have another science group that is really focused on planetary science.
Host:Okay.
Ellen Ochoa: And particularly sample science, and that’s really grown out of the initial role back in the ’60s where when we brought the moon rocks, they came back to johnson space center.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Ellen Ochoa: And we have scientists here who actually are experts in understanding how you look at extraterrestrial samples and learn from them.
Host:Wow.
Ellen Ochoa: They’re, of course, scientists all around the world that do that, but we have some physically here with some very unique instruments here at johnson space center.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Ellen Ochoa: And then, we curate. We keep and curate really all of the extraterrestrial samples that have been collected by all missions in the united states.
Host:Whoa.
Ellen Ochoa: So, we really have a unique collection here. I always really think of it as probably the most precious, unique repository anywhere in the country, if not the world, right here at johnson space center.
Host:Yeah. That’s true. I mean, I’ve talked to some ARES scientists, right, that’s the astromaterials folks. And they– some of them said that– this is where all of the moon rocks are, right?
Ellen Ochoa: Yes.
Host:All the moon rocks that were collected during the Apollo program, all of them are coming through here. And you know, sure, we give samples out to different organizations, and universities, and whatever, but this is where it’s centralized. This is where everything comes from. And there’s some that have never been exposed to earth’s atmosphere, right?
Ellen Ochoa: Oh, yeah.
Host:They’re still in the packaging.
Ellen Ochoa: Yeah, they keep them in a special atmosphere.
Host:Very controlled facility, right? That’s where everything goes through. Amazing. I mean, there’s a lot of other parts though, you know? I mean, there’s– johnson space center is huge. I know there’s a whole engineering and robotics section, right? There’s whole– especially for human missions, thinking about that.
Ellen Ochoa: Well, our engineering directorate is the largest organization that we have here at johnson space center.
Host:Wow.
Ellen Ochoa: Because they support everything that we do, right?
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: In particular– of course, they grew up in the Apollo program so they– their job then was to design, develop, test all human spacecraft, and that’s still what they do.
Host:Wow.
Ellen Ochoa: And so, we have expertise in a variety of areas.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And we do have a portion of it that there’s a division that looks at automation and software and that includes robotics as well.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Ellen Ochoa: So part of that has been looking at how might you use, for example, humanoid robotics as astronaut assistants.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: There are other projects in there that are looking at how you use virtual reality there for astronaut training or for other types of things that help us carry out our human spaceflight missions.
Host:Wow. So, i mean, so much engineering going on. There’s– i mean, you have the expertise of folks that have been here for a while and understand all the systems that have been built throughout the years, have the history. I guess, what’s the profile of the workers here at the johnson space center? You have engineers, obviously, that are in the engineering building, but kind of how is it all scattered throughout the center?
Ellen Ochoa: Well, about three quarters of our civil servant workforce is science and engineering.
Host:Wow.
Ellen Ochoa: And then, the other quarter is all of the other tasks that it takes to carry on a center, whether it’s human resources, or our financial analysts, and our procurement experts, our public relations experts, for example, like you.
Host:I’m biased, but i think it’s best, just saying.
Ellen Ochoa: So all of those others activities take up about a quarter.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And then, of course, we have many contractors who work on site, either on site or close to site, probably two times as many of those folks as civil servants.
Host:Wow.
Ellen Ochoa: And really, together, we form a big team that make it all happen.
Host:Yeah, exactly, make it all happens. That’s absolutely right. And it’s a big team here at the johnson space center, but there’s relationships as we were hinting to before, where we have to work with other centers, right? We have to– we’re working with Orion and taking other centers in there, and really it’s an agency-wide effort to make a lot of these things happen. So how is that kind of balancing relationships with other centers, just in the– if you were to take a bird’s eye view of how johnson space center interacts with everyone else, and headquarters, the whole landscape of NASA as an agency, what’s that kind of look like?
Ellen Ochoa: Well, we interact in some way with all the other centers.
Host:Wow.
Ellen Ochoa: Bu there are some that we interact much more closely with, the ones that have really been involved in human spaceflight since the beginning.
Host:Sure.
Ellen Ochoa: So Marshall spaceflight center in Alabama and Kennedy spaceflight center in Florida.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And then, also, Stennis in Mississippi, which is a smaller center, but they participate in the main propulsion engine testing.
Host:Oh.
Ellen Ochoa: So they work pretty closely with Marshall. So those are the ones that we have always had the most interaction with.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Ellen Ochoa: But, we’re really– we have a model where almost every center we have some interactions with, for example, we work with Langley on entry, descent, and landing. When we think about landing on mars, they have some specialists and we do too. We’re focused on it pretty much from human missions and they look at a broader range of missions, including science missions and how you do that.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: But, as you look at various different specialties, there’s different centers that have expertise that we work with or that we pull on.
Host:Yeah, absolutely. That’s what it sounds like. I mean, there’s different expertise just around the country, but then, as you were hinting to, there’s different facilities and capabilities around, right?
Ellen Ochoa: Right.
Host:So Stennis has certain testing capabilities, so if we need to test something this is the place to do it. I know for James Webb, right, that’s a great one. The James Webb is making its rounds on different parts of the agency because they have different capabilities, right? For example, right now, James Webb is here because we have a really large vacuum chamber. We can do vacuum chamber testing here, whereas in different other facilities they can do different testing. I know– was Glenn one of the other ones they had, right?
Ellen Ochoa: Yeah, Glenn does spacecraft thermal vacuum testing as well.
Host:Yeah, thermal vacuum testing. And they have the vibration table, too, right? Or is that somewhere else?
Ellen Ochoa: Yes.
Host:Yeah, amazing. Just all kinds of testing around.
Ellen Ochoa: Yeah, we’re very glad to have the James Webb here. It’s a little bit out of what we normally do.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: Since it’s not part of human spaceflight.
Host:Sure.
Ellen Ochoa: So it’s one of the highest– it’s probably the highest science mission priority at the agency right now.
Host:Oh, definitely.
Ellen Ochoa: And so, a decision was made several years ago that we had the right facility to be able to do this very specific test. We did have to do a number of modifications, because there really wasn’t any facility available that could meet all of the conditions they needed, you know, the cold. So it’s not just a vacuum chamber, it’s a thermal vacuum chamber.
Host:Thermal vacuum chamber, wow.
Ellen Ochoa: And to cool down to 20 degrees kelvin right now, which is minus 423 degrees Fahrenheit.
Host:Whoa. A little cold, yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And then, have to get to vacuum and also had to be isolated from vibrations, so really quite a lot of constraints that had to be met in order to do this test, which we’re right in the middle of.
Host:Yeah, how about that. Wow. Twenty kelvin, that is just amazing. I can’t even imagine, but we have– that’s what we have, we have facilities that can test things like no other, so they take James Webb around. I’m just very excited to see what they’re going to be– what that spacecraft is going to do. I am so excited. It’s really amazing what this is capable of. But, talking about relationships with other centers and NASA as an agency, thinking about partnerships beyond that, right? So we’re– for example, we are in operations for the international space station, and the first word “international” is extremely important. We have relationships all over the world. So kind of– how does that work, that international collaboration and partnership to make the international space station happen, to make it operational?
Ellen Ochoa: I think that’s one of the real strengths of johnson space center is that we are sort of known as an integrator. And when you put together human spaceflight missions it always involves many partner, but of course the ISS, international space station, really took that to a whole new level. So it’s a collaboration primarily among five space agencies that represent 15 countries.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: But, as it’s been built and as we’ve operated, we’ve actually had interactions with 95 different countries.
Host:Whoa.
Ellen Ochoa: Through principal investigators of experiments and educational activities, so that really does take international to a whole new level.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: We’ve flown crew members from 18 different countries.
Host:Wow.
Ellen Ochoa: And we’ve got to keep track of all of those– put together all those partnerships.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: Make sure they’re all working. So, it really is pretty amazing from just a partnership and a global leadership perspective, not even considering really the technical and operational complexity of the whole spacecraft.
Host:Yeah, i mean, well, getting into that, how does– it’s called an international space station, we’ve had– you said we’ve had multiple crews from multiple different countries, but what is everyone’s part in making this kind of international thing come to be? And how– especially in your position as the director, kind of making all that happen diplomatically?
Ellen Ochoa: Well, so most of the original space centers provided module or modules, right?
Host:Yeah, yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: So a lot of the modules came from the Russian space agency, many from NASA, and then there’s also laboratories from the Japanese space agency and from the European space agency.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And the Canadians provided the robotic arm that we use there.
Host:Wow.
Ellen Ochoa: So physically, hardware-wise, that’s what people have contributed to that.
Host:Yeah, actual parts of the international space station.
Ellen Ochoa: Yes. And so, as they’ve contributed to that they’ve then also had opportunities to fly their crew members and to help define the science that goes on. And as the years have gone by we’ve had more and more capability of performing science, and other types of research and development activities, and just a whole wide variety of areas. And it’s not just NASA and the U.S. that do that, but other countries are performing science as well.
Host:Wow. Just working with– in this landscape, right, it’s kind of unique just working with so many different countries. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is perspective, just everyone’s kind of got– everyone’s kind of got a goal and a different way of viewing things. What have you learned just in your position talking with all of these different countries about goals that may be similar or different, but just something you’ve learned from being in this landscape of international collaboration?
Ellen Ochoa: Well, you do have to have common goals for sure.
Host:Yeah, yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: Sometimes when you get a couple layers down of course they do vary a little bit, because different countries may have particular desires and certain technology or science areas that they really want to focus on, which might be different than another country’s, for example.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Ellen Ochoa: But, they all are very committed to the idea of the international space station and working collaboratively. And so, you have to work out well, who gets crew time?
Host:Sure.
Ellen Ochoa: If you have to change the attitude of the station for one experiment, how does that affect the others?
Host:Oh.
Ellen Ochoa: And really, again, it’s our ops folks who make that happen day to day.
Host:Right.
Ellen Ochoa: So mission control here works with mission control centers at other places around the world.
Host:Hmm.
Ellen Ochoa: But, we’re really sort of, again, the integrating, the coordinating function.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: Trying to make sure that all of the space agencies and all of the other users, all of the science users, are able– we’re able to meet their desires.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: There has to be compromise, because they don’t always work out. But working through that and coming up with a plan every single day of what we’re going to be doing and how we’re going to accomplish the mission.
Host:Wow. I mean, you just kind of summarized that in a few sentences, but really, i mean, you’re talking about folks weighing in on everything and just the fact that it’s happening is kind of amazing. The fact that we can actually have this international collaboration with so many perspectives, so many people weighing in, so many decisions that need to be made to make the– to accomplish this goal of running the international space station, experiments on board. It’s kind of quite amazing. But i mean, going forward, is there– what other sorts of international collaboration are we looking forward to? I know Orion is in the mix, right?
Ellen Ochoa: Right.
Host:You already hinted at that European space agency is building parts of it, but missions to space and how international collaboration plays a part.
Ellen Ochoa: Yeah, well, i think very definitely as we go out beyond low earth orbit and do missions in deep space, that they will be international as well, and we will build on the relationships, and the partnerships, and the agreements that we have built up through the international space station.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: So really, they are the key to us moving forward collaboratively with other nations.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And as we mentioned, there’s already a partnership between Orion– NASA and European space agency, ESA– on Orion, and we just expect to see more partnerships as time goes on.
Host:How about that. Yeah. Is there– i mean, what’s the– so the relationship between NASA and European space agency, ESA, the goal is the same, right? We want to go out further into space. So, what’s kind of the goal of Orion with those two parts when they combine? What’s that– what’s the goal there?
Ellen Ochoa: Well, Orion is the spacecraft that will allow people to get out beyond low earth orbit, of course, with the use of the space launch system, SLS, the heavy lift rocket.
Host:Right.
Ellen Ochoa: But, Orion also has to the capability to bring them back safely from beyond low earth orbit.
Host:Very important.
Ellen Ochoa: Which has very different requirements then coming back from low earth orbit.
Host:Oh, okay.
Ellen Ochoa: Much different heating environment. And you also have a very different environment, say, around the moon or somewhere else, then you do in low earth orbit.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: Different temperatures, different radiation environment, all of that. So, Orion is built to those much different requirements than our vehicles that are built only to go to and from low earth orbits.
Host:Mm-hmm.
Ellen Ochoa: So, it really is the key, you know, one of the cornerstones that you have to have in order to be moving out beyond low earth orbit.
Host:Yeah, investing a lot of time and making this as good as it can be and learning from it so we can keep going further and further out.
Ellen Ochoa: Right.
Host:It’s pretty cool landscape. But, internationally, kind of bringing it back home to here in the united states, we have– we talked about relationships within NASA with other centers, but– and then, we sort of hinted at relationships in the private sector, but we are trying to build a private industry in space, right? A commercial, a burgeoning whole industry, the space industry. So what’s that kind of look like from your perspective?
Ellen Ochoa: Again, really, ISS is the key to that, right?
Host:International space station.
Ellen Ochoa: Because if you think about it, it’s really the anchor customer.
Host:Okay. Oh, yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: It’s in low earth orbit, every minute of every day.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: It needs to be resupplied with just basic living supplies, equipment, with science experiments, and of course, with people– with astronauts coming to and from. So, we are really using that as the platform to help build up a commercial market for low earth orbit. But, without the international space station, it really doesn’t exist in terms of human spaceflight. Obviously, there’s communication satellites and other things like that that are in a different category. But when you think of human spaceflight, it really is the international space station that is the key to doing all of that.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: So several years ago, probably close to ten years ago now, we started up the commercial transportation services, where we were looking at having companies help develop services that would bring supplies to and from the international space station.
Host:Kind of, yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And so, we now have two companies that are doing that with SpaceX and Orbital ATK. And we have a third company on contract, Sierra Nevada corporation and we hope to see their vehicle, the dream chaser, flying in about 2019 or so.
Host:Looks like a bent shuttle. It looks cool.
Ellen Ochoa: That was really a pathfinder for us because we were using mechanisms other than sort of standard contracts for the first part of that development. And we were also requiring the companies to put in some of their own investment, otherwise, it really isn’t commercial at all, right? It’s just the same model we’ve always done, where we fund companies to do things.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: We’ve done that since the very beginning.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And so, unless companies are actually investing themselves and then looking for other customers besides NASA i wouldn’t really call it commercial.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And so i think we’re still building that up, but right now they’re working for NASA and looking to understand what other customers are going to be out there in the next few years that may also need logistics or need their supplies– either a new rocket, or a spacecraft, or what else to do that.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And then we’ve moved on to the second phase, which is looking at developing services to actually bring crew to and from, which, again, is a much different issue because of the reliability that’s required, and so you really have to look at all of the safety aspects in a different way than you do when you’re taking cargo.
Host:Definitely.
Ellen Ochoa: So in the midst of that development right now, but we hope to see those test flights going off in 2018.
Host:Wow, so that’s kind of– like you said, that’s kind of the first step, right? The first step is building this industry with the international space station. Because you said there’s a customer waiting in space right now that needs these services, but hopefully it’ll kind of build this entire industry around it. And you know, you’re right– there’s already a non-human element to it, but even human, that’s really exciting to think about. Because even like you hinted at before, we’ve been in space continuously for 17 years almost, right?
Ellen Ochoa: Should be, yeah– November 1st of this year.
Host:Exactly, so i mean, just– there’s been a human presence in space. People might not even know it, but it’s existing already. But to think that it’s going to grow into something even better, that’s pretty cool to think about.
Ellen Ochoa: And there’s a lot of other ways that the space station is contributing to more of this commercial market. A lot of it is what is it that we fly on space station? All the science and R&D. Half of the station resources in terms of things like crew time and power and volume is dedicated to ISS as a national laboratory.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And so that means they’re flying experiments not for NASA in that half, but for other organizations that want to make use of the space environment. So it could be companies that are trying to develop new products. It could be non-profit organizations. It could be schools– we fly things for schools. But really, trying to understand more about the benefits of doing things in a space environment– you know, if it’s developing new materials, or learning more about medicines, or growing proteins that will help us develop better medicines on earth, doing cancer research– i mean, there’s just this whole wide variety of things that we do that has grown over the years. And we hope in some cases that companies will then want to team up with a commercial company that might have a smaller space station, or some sort of space module–
Host:Hey, cool!
Ellen Ochoa: Where it would focus more on a particular activity that appeals to a particular industry.
Host:Wow.
Ellen Ochoa: And then right now on the international space station, we have an inflatable module that was provided by Bigelow Aerospace.
Host:Yeah!
Ellen Ochoa: And the goal of that company is to provide inflatable modules as space stations for customers in a commercial way.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: That technology, interestingly enough, was originally licensed from johnson space center. We had people that developed that inflatable technology here a number of years ago, and then we licensed it to Bigelow Aerospace. So it’s come a little bit full circle. But there are other opportunities like that to test technologies that can be used in space, that could be provided commercially, but using ISS as a test bed right now, because it is in space. And we do essentially– we provide all of the infrastructure and all of the services.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: For anybody that wants to use it.
Host:Well, that’s the whole thing with beam, right, is– i mean, Bigelow wants to make– you know, use it for habitats, i guess.
Ellen Ochoa: Yeah.
Host:But they want to test the structure. They want to test the engineering behind it. So you plug it into the international space station, space station gives you power, data, whatever, and there you go– now you have a place to test it so that whenever you do launch it, it’s going to work for you. So that’s an exciting landscape. So it’s just a lot of cool things going on. I mean, thinking about the future, just what is possible– you know, especially from your perspective as director, you’re working towards building something, right, you’re working towards going out, towards exploring blank, towards building blank. So how would you imagine the future of human spaceflight in the next– i guess in the short term, but also in the long term? What are your goals?
Ellen Ochoa: Well, the plans that we have, the concept that we have is to build some infrastructure in the 2020s in orbit around the moon. And it could be a variety of different kinds of orbits, depending on what you want to do. But really, to demonstrate– for NASA, the goal is to demonstrate all the capabilities that you need to eventually go on to mars, which we would like to do in the 2030s. But we really need to get out beyond low earth orbit and test it in a different environment that’s more similar to what we might see on a long duration mission. As i mentioned, we want to work with international partners, and they’re very interested in working with us. And you may have seen the document “the global exploration roadmap.” We’ve put out two or three different versions now over a few years where there’s actually 12 different space agencies around the world that have contributed to this document and talked about what they want to do beyond low earth orbit.
Host:Oh, wow.
Ellen Ochoa: Now, some of them may not have exactly the same goals we do, but having an infrastructure around the moon is really pretty much important to all of them.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: So we are working on saying, “we want to be able to support different activities, even if they’re not the ones that NASA is specifically doing, but in the lunar vicinity so that we can really do this as an international partnership.
Host:So when you’re talking about these missions, i mean, going around the moon, whatever that profile may be, we’re talking about humans, right?
Ellen Ochoa: Yes, yeah. Humans would be in Orion.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And we’d also have probably a small habitation module so that you can do missions that’ll be several weeks long and building up to longer missions as you get more capability. But it’s really, too, it’s different than the space station that we have in low earth orbit, because it’s really about demonstrating– building up and demonstrating the capabilities that you do need to actually go off on a mission to mars.
Host:Wow, that’s really cool. I mean, these steps, right, they’re really important to go out into the cosmos, i mean, to build some– a place to live, a habitat around the moon and then go to mars. I mean, is there– way beyond, right, so way long term, do you imagine some sort of a future, a future maybe hundreds of years where we are a space-faring culture, where we are a human species that have explored the solar system? Like, how do you imagine that landscape?
Ellen Ochoa: Oh, i think it’s absolutely inevitable.
Host:Inevitable, wow.
Ellen Ochoa: Well, you can see how much has happened just in the last ten years in terms of other companies and other countries joining us on this exploration adventure that we have. And i just see that continuing.
Host:Yeah. So i mean, obviously, you’ve been an astronaut. You are now the director of the johnson space center. It’s fair to say, i think, that you are passionate about space, right? You have–
Ellen Ochoa: I hope so, yes.
Host:You have a passion, right? You’ve invested time and your energy into reaching these goals and striving forward. But you’re a leader, too. You have to lead a workforce of thousands of people that also– you know, we’re kind of going towards the same goal. What do you do to motivate the workforce? What do you do to build an environment where we’re all striving towards these goals to make these things happen? You know, human presence around the moon, around mars, out into the solar system– you know, what do you have to do as a director?
Ellen Ochoa: Well, fortunately, i don’t really have to motivate the people here at johnson space center. They come here very motivated. They’re here for a reason: they’re here for our mission.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And so it’s not about me trying to sell them on the mission. They’re already sold.
Host:They’re sold.
Ellen Ochoa: So it’s really more a matter of focusing and prioritizing, right, and understanding– so obviously we work with the agency as a whole. The agency is part of the federal government, is part of the executive branch of the government. And then congress is the one that actually authorizes and appropriates money. So there’s this whole system in place that works together to define what are those longer term goals.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And then we have to translate that into, okay, what does that mean specifically for johnson space center, and where should we be prioritizing our time and efforts? And so i think that’s really the role, as opposed to really needing to motivate people in general. We want to be doing missions, and so that’s really the key, and we want to make those missions happen.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And you know, we want to– one of the other jobs that we have here is trying to look out beyond the near term, which i think in general is pretty well defined in saying, what are the skills we need in the workforce? What are the facilities? How is that different than what we have today? How do we shape it so that ten years down the road, we have the right workforce, we have the right facilities? Twenty years down the road, same thing. How’s that going to change? What do we need to be doing differently? I think those are the things that i focus on and that my senior staff and my senior leaders here focus on.
Host:Yeah, it takes a team of people, right? Absolutely. And you’re thinking years out into the future but operating now. But the things you’re doing now, you have a vision, you have a goal to make that all happen. So you know, motivating the workforce, obviously we do come in– we are passionate about space. That’s why I’m here for sure, and I’m sure that’s why many others inspired by one way or another. And i think that’s really important, right? There’s some form of inspiration that got us here, somewhere out– you know, whether it be a movie, or a book, or maybe we talked to a NASA engineer/astronaut and that person really convinced us. So how do you view engaging the public and engaging, you know, just people to either appreciate what we do or maybe even invest their lives and come work for us? What do you do to motivate the public?
Ellen Ochoa: Well, that’s an important part of what we do, and i think we’re sort of fortunate because we have such cool things that we can talk about.
Host:Yeah!
Ellen Ochoa: We have people in space, and we have the astronauts, and we have mission control.
Host:That’s true, we have a lot of cool things to show off.
Ellen Ochoa: That still brings just so much excitement to people all over the country. In fact, still all over the world, NASA’s just a huge, very positive brand. And within the country and within the government, it’s really looked at as the place where the government works, where it does things right, and it does it for the good of the country, and even for the good of the planet. And so as we talked about what is our mission, sometimes we end up getting focused on the details when really there’s a sort of bigger picture. We are a national space agency– the n in NASA is for national.
Host:Right.
Ellen Ochoa: So what is it in a big picture sense that the whole agency does, which of course is beyond just human spaceflight.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: There’s a lot else that goes on at NASA. And there’s a lot to that. It’s about expanding scientific knowledge. It is about global leadership and global diplomacy. It’s about benefits to society.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: You look at some of the work we do on station, you know, DNA sequencing, and cancer research, and earth resources work. That’s really directly benefiting people on earth. It’s about the economy. And we talked a little bit earlier about how we’re sort of a key to building this new space economy. And also, because of the work that we do all across NASA, we actually help fund an industrial base across the country. You look at Orion– they actually have hundreds of companies that supply components to Orion in– i think it’s 48 of the 50 states.
Host:Whoa!
Ellen Ochoa: And these companies are able to produce parts that are aerospace grade parts. And so not only can NASA use them, but there are other industries that can use those as well.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And so we are part of keeping the country manufacturing things, and really high quality parts, as well.
Host:Absolutely.
Ellen Ochoa: And then the other part is– you kind of talked about it, but– the inspiration part, which i think is huge.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: I think it’s intangible. You can’t ever measure it, but people have changed what they do with their lives because of what they do with NASA, and I’m not just talking about the ones who’ve come to work for NASA. It’s other people who have studied science and engineering. It’s other people who have just seen NASA do something that seemed so hard, nobody thought you could do it. Then they’ve decided to say, “well, i have this cool–” may not have anything to do with science and math, but, you know, “i just saw NASA do something, and i know now it’s possible.”
Host:Yeah, wow. To go out and just achieve, right, to aspire to do something greater, to say that you can actually do it. That’s amazing. So i mean, you go out and you do speaking engagements, right, and you talk to government leaders. And do you see a sort of tone change throughout– just whenever you’re talking about this messaging, is there a general consensus of like, “yes, this makes sense,” right? Is there– do people understand what we’re doing?
Ellen Ochoa: Yeah, i would say i feel really, really lucky to work at NASA. Everybody always wants to talk about, “what is NASA doing?” And almost everybody you run into has a story about, “hey, when i was in elementary school, i got to grow plants where the seeds came back from a shuttle mission,” or, “my grandfather worked on the Apollo program,” or, “i got to talk to an astronaut through amateur radio.” So you go and you hear about all these different stories. And whether it’s the general public, or whether it’s elected officials, we’re very lucky to have strong support. And i would say, importantly, it’s strong bipartisan support.
Host:Wow.
Ellen Ochoa: It’s not– you know, it’s really– people understand how NASA brings value, those things that i talked about– expanding scientific knowledge, and bringing benefits back to earth, and the inspiration. That really crosses all kinds of boundaries.
Host:Wow.
Ellen Ochoa: And people see that and they appreciate it.
Host:Yeah. I mean– so we only have a few minutes left, but i mean, you kind of brought up a thought for me. You know, we were all inspired. Do you have a story of inspiration that got you working for NASA?
Ellen Ochoa: Well, of course, i watched the Apollo program.
Host:Oh, okay.
Ellen Ochoa: So that was huge when i was growing up. People always ask, “is that when you decided you wanted to be an astronaut?” And i say, “you obviously don’t remember what it was like in the ’60s,” because nobody would’ve ever asked an 11-year-old girl, “do you want to grow up and be an astronaut?”
Host:Ah.
Ellen Ochoa: You know, no women were astronauts. Very few women, of course, worked for NASA.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: We’ve learned about some of them through “hidden figures,” but of course, at the time, i had no idea, really, about any women working for NASA. So it wasn’t until later– it was really the space shuttle program where, for a variety of reasons just throughout our country and because of the design of the spacecraft itself, they broadened who could really apply to be an astronaut. Really, anybody that had studied science and engineering, you know, a technical field– medicine.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And so they opened it up to men and women, and minority astronauts. And i was in my first year of graduate school when the shuttle flew for the first time.
Host:Wow.
Ellen Ochoa: And so that really was a game changer in terms of thinking about working at NASA and being an astronaut.
Host:Wow. So i mean, it was the Apollo program, and then still in your mind this love of NASA, but really it didn’t become real for you until later. But now, i mean, the landscape has totally changed, right? So even when you were in grad school, the landscape was changing. But now we just hired a new class of astronauts, and they’re all over the place, right? We’ve got a couple pilots, but we also have some scientists, we have engineers, we have– you know, it’s really diverse.
Ellen Ochoa: Yes, yeah. I would say that’s been true for a number of years now, but it’s probably even increasing in the last few classes.
Host:Definitely.
Ellen Ochoa: Just diverse in almost every way you can think of.
Host:Well, we need it, right? That’s the whole, i mean–
Ellen Ochoa: Well, it reflects people across our country.
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And it isn’t just one kind of group, or one kind of background, or where you grew up that determines whether you like science and math, and whether you’re passionate about space, and you’re a hard worker, and you like learning, and you’re a quick learner. Those are– and you’re a good team member, and you’re a good leader. Those are all the kinds of things that make good astronauts, and of course, that transcends all kinds of boundaries.
Host:I did have the pleasure of meeting them just for a couple minutes, and they were just a fantastic group of people. We even– i got like 20 minutes to play a game with them– two truths and a lie, because it was just to get to know them a little bit better– and that’s all i had. So instead of going through like a minute and some change per person, we played the game. And i thought, you know, “i don’t know how this is going to go, because this is kind of a different sort of game.” So i pitched the idea to them, and they went right into it. They were just– they were absolutely in love– and you could tell because i think that’s really important, is that idea of camaraderie, the idea that you can put these guys in a situation and they’re going to have a good time, they’re going to make it something real, and they’re going to run with it. And i think that’s important. Even across the board here at the johnson space center, right, even just talking about diversity– just diversity of thought, diversity of people and skill– that’s true here, right? You said we have all kinds of folks– engineers, we have public affairs officers, we have, you know, everyone. Just different–
Ellen Ochoa: Absolutely. I think one of the strengths of our team here is that it is diverse. We do value inclusiveness, and we believe that leads to innovation. And innovation is hugely important. If we want to be leading human spaceflight 10 or 20 years from now, we can’t do that without innovation. And it really takes people with all different backgrounds and ideas and thought processes. And it takes people respecting other people so that you will listen to what they have to say. And then people feel, “if i speak up, I’m going to be heard. Somebody’s going to pay attention. So i am going to speak up, and i do have good ideas.”
Host:Yeah.
Ellen Ochoa: And i think all of that is really important to our success today, and to our success in the future.
Host:Absolutely, it’s a great culture. And i think that’s a perfect place to end it, too, just that whole idea of diversity. And it’s cool to work for a place like this, right? It really is, because we’re all working with a lot of people– thousands, really– that are passionate about the goals that we’re going toward. So it’s been an absolute pleasure talking with you, and i do feel really fortunate to have you as a leader. So thank you very much.
Ellen Ochoa: Thank you very much. I enjoyed talking about johnson space center, as always.
Host:Yes, absolutely. And you’re always welcome on the show.
Ellen Ochoa: Thanks.
[ music ] [ indistinct radio chatter ]
>> Houston, welcome to space.
[ music ]
Host:Hey, thanks for sticking around. So today we talked with Dr. Ellen Ochoa, just about the whole landscape of the johnson space center. If you want to know what’s going on at the Johnson Space Center, just go to NASA.gov/johnson and that’s where you get all the updates on what’s going on around the center. On social media we’re very active, and you can go to the NASA Johnson Space Center Facebook, twitter, or Instagram pages. I believe it’s @NASAJSC or a version of that. Anyway, we’re verified on all of those accounts. If you want to follow specifically Ellen Ochoa, she’s also on twitter, and she’s updating on everything that she’s doing. She’s hinted in this podcast she’s travelling to Germany, so stay tuned for updates from her– @astro_ellen. You can find her on Twitter. So within the next few years, you’ll be seeing commercial crew and Orion missions controlled here from Houston, so make sure to check in on those pages, too, and on NASA.gov it’s /commercialcrew or /Orion. Really, they’re all pretty easy to find. And if you go on Facebook, twitter, Instagram– whichever is your favorite platform– use the hashtag #askNASA. Oh, and just make sure to use h-w-h-a-p, #hwhap, i think– yeah, Houston We Have A Podcast– just mention us, and if you have an idea for the show or a question, we’ll be addressing those soon. So this podcast was recorded on September 7, 2017. Thanks to Alex Perryman, John Stoll, Isidro Reyna, and Debbie Conder. And thanks again to Dr. Ellen Ochoa for coming on the show. We’ll be back next week.