“Houston We Have a Podcast” is the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, the home of human spaceflight, stationed in Houston, Texas. We bring space right to you! On this podcast, you’ll learn from some of the brightest minds of America’s space agency as they discuss topics in engineering, science, technology and more. You’ll hear firsthand from astronauts what it’s like to launch atop a rocket, live in space and re-enter the Earth’s atmosphere. And you’ll listen in to the more human side of space as our guests tell stories of behind-the-scenes moments never heard before.
Jon Olansen and Jenny Devolites, leads for the Orion Ascent Abort-2 (AA-2) crew module and AA-2 launch abort vehicle test mission, discuss the critical test of the abort system if a failure were to happen while the Space Launch System rocket was ascending. This episode was recorded on July 20th, 2018.
Transcript
Gary Jordan (Host): Houston, we have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, Episode 62, Escaping a Speeding Rocket. I’m Gary Jordan, and I’ll be your host today. So in this podcast, we bring in the experts, and that’s scientists, engineers, astronauts, all to let you know the coolest information about what’s going on here at NASA. So today, we’re talking with Jon Olansen and Jenny Devolites. We’re talking about a critical step on the path to build NASA’s deep space human-rated vehicle, Orion, with a test mission called Ascent Abort-2, AA-2 for short. So Jon is the manager of the Orion AA-2 crew module and the AA-2 launch abort vehicle test director. Jenny is the deputy manager and the test conductor. We’ve done a pad abort for Orion in the past, meaning a test to see what an abort would look like if the rocket had a failure before launch and was going zero miles an hour. This is a test to see what an abort would look like if a failure happened while the rocket was speeding up through the atmosphere. We’ve talked about Launch Abort Systems on the podcast before.
So if you want to, after this episode, you can listen to episode 25 called A Rocket on a Rocket. We talked with Wahab Alshahin, and we actually– I’m pretty proud of that title, by the way. So with no further delay, let’s go light speed and jump right ahead to our talk with Dr. Jon Olansen and Mrs. Jenny Devolites. Enjoy.
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Host:Okay, Jon and Jenny, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. Really interested to hear about this AA-2.
Dr. Jon Olansen:Thank you very much for inviting us.
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:Yeah, thanks for having us here.
Host:Okay, it stands for Ascent Abort-2, right?
Dr. Jon Olansen:That’s correct.
Host:Okay, so I kind of wanted to start by bringing it back a little bit, because I know this is a test, but it’s part of this larger thing that is the abort system. So let’s just kind of start there. What is a Launch Abort System?
Dr. Jon Olansen:So Launch Abort System is critical to the safety of the crew on any given mission. You’re really looking to, if there are any emergency situations during ascent, you want to be able to pull the crew away from that emergency, whether it’s with the space launch system, for example, you want to be able to pull them away and save the crew in the event of that emergency. So the Launch Abort System is there for that purpose. It has actually already been tested once before in a pad abort scenario. And this will be the second test that we’ll execute with a Launch Abort System.
Host:So pad abort. So if I were to think of it, the abort system is basically a way to take the crew, like you said, safely away from the vehicle. The pad abort is when the vehicle itself is going zero, right?
Dr. Jon Olansen:Correct, that’s when the vehicle is sitting on the ground.
Host:Yeah.
Dr. Jon Olansen:And you still want that same system to save the crew if there’s an issue while you’re on the ground.
Host:Uh-huh. So it has to sort of work in that scenario. It has to– if the rocket were to have a failure, it’s going to take it– going zero, safely away, but enough, high enough and far away enough that you’re going to be safe and be able to deploy parachutes and get the crew safely off.
Dr. Jon Olansen:That’s exactly correct.
Host:Now, ascent abort, what’s that one?
Dr. Jon Olansen:Right, so the difference there is instead of while you’re sitting on the ground, you’re actually in flight. And so we want to demonstrate that the system, the Launch Abort System, will work properly while it’s in flight. And for our test, we’re actually looking at executing that abort at about the highest dynamic pressure region, which means the forces on the vehicle are about at the maximum they’ll be as the rocket flies through the atmosphere. And so that’s where we want to execute that abort and demonstrate that the system works. That’s a piece of it, is the demonstration. Another piece of it is to collect data associated with how it works in that environment. So we actually have hundreds of sensors on the vehicle to collect data in that environment.
Host:That’s right. So it’s going to show you, yes, it worked, but, you know, you’re firing it off for this test, so maybe it just worked in that test. Is it going to work in every scenario? You want to get the data to make sure that that yes is a real yes.
Dr. Jon Olansen:That’s correct.
Host:Okay, so maximum dynamic pressure, max Q, is that– whenever you’re launching, is that like– I’m imagining it being the hardest place in the ascent, to actually pull off an abort. Is that right? Is it harder at that maximum dynamic pressure point?
Dr. Jon Olansen:So it is. That’s one of the– that’s actually just one of the criteria that we’re using. It’s the most direct for understanding the discussion. But it is one of the more difficult regions to be able to execute the abort. You have to overcome the forces that exist on the vehicle at that maximum dynamic pressure. You still have a rocket that’s accelerating behind you. So the Launch Abort System itself needs to operate sufficiently to pull the crew away so that they’re not in danger as they execute that abort.
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:So you mentioned how quickly we pull the crew away. And so the thrust is so fast, the thrust at just 1.1 seconds after abort is greater than 5 F-22 fighter jets on full afterburner. And so it’s extremely high thrust. Fifteen seconds after the abort, the crew module has gained more than two miles of altitude. So when we talk about pulling the crew away quickly, we take them to a great distance as fast as we can to escape any emergency situation.
Host:Wow. So I’m going to– okay, so the forces on the vehicle, especially during the maximum dynamic pressure, they’ve got to be pretty tough. Now, what about the forces on the crew? Are there pretty, you know, a lot of, a lot of Gs, I guess?
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:They do. So for our abort flight test, our vehicle, which doesn’t have any crew on it, will be in about the seven to eight G range.
Host:Okay.
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:But the actual Orion abort case is closer to 13 Gs in this same region. So it can be much higher, and that has to do with their trajectory is different than ours.
Dr. Jon Olansen:And now, part that as well is it’s a very short time frame. So that sounds like a high G load, and it is, but it’s a very short time frame that any crew member would actually see that, or the capsule would see that. The abort motor itself burns out in three and a half seconds or so.
Host:Oh, okay. So that spike, that spike for the test module to, you said seven or eight Gs, that would only be for a few seconds.
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:Yes, it’s very short. But it is one of the hardest things that our vehicle has to go through. So from an engineering perspective, how we design and test all of the systems, they have to be able to handle those extremely high loads. So all of our computers and our wiring, all of our sensors, everything in the vehicle has to be able to survive and operate through. Since we’re trying to get data the entire time, we can’t lose any of that data. That’s some of the most important data. So all of that has to be designed and tested to be able to work with those very high loads, even though it’s a short period of time.
Host:Huh. What are some of the engineering considerations to make sure it’s going to work with high loads? What do you have to– what kind of extra stuff do you have to put into it to make sure it’s going to withstand that?
Dr. Jon Olansen:As an example, vibration isolation systems. So you mount your avionics components, all the flight computer and all of the other components, power distribution units, you mount them all on palettes that have vibration isolators underneath them. So they are, they are sized specifically to try to damp the harshest environments so that the components can survive during that time frame.
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:It’s like a shock absorber, and it gives you that sort of shock absorber effect.
Host:While everything around it is kind of vibrating intensely, this is sort of, like you said, dampening.
Dr. Jon Olansen:Correct.
Host:Yeah, okay. How does– wow. I mean, even with the dampening, it still probably is going to undergo some serious forces.
Dr. Jon Olansen:Absolutely, all the components will still see significant vibration. So we go through a series of tests on the ground to make sure that not only the components that we’re flying, but duplicates of those, that we can really stress test those and make sure that our design and our workmanship are sufficient to actually support the flight test environment.
Host:So Jenny, you were saying that the Orion, I’m guessing the Orion-4 is at Exploration Mission-1?
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:Yes.
Host:That was the one you were referring to that may experience a little bit more depending on the trajectory?
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:Actually, yeah. Exploration Mission-2 is the first mission with crew. And on EM-1, they actually have an inert abort system because there’s no crew, and they’re not planning to ever exercise the Launch Abort System. They would have to jettison it in orbit, but they won’t actually exercise it from a launch abort perspective.
Host:I see.
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:So Exploration Mission-2 is the first one with crew where they might actually. So that’s the one that gets analyzed in terms of trajectories and what kinds of loads the crew might see.
Host:So you’re doing the testing now to prepare for EM-2, you know, what you learned from this test was going to give you some good data for that test. But EM-1, you’re not going to put an abort system on it.
Dr. Jon Olansen:The Launch Abort System itself will be there. But the abort motor will be inert. There won’t actually be a rocket motor there to execute.
Host:Oh, okay.
Dr. Jon Olansen:So you still have to have the design for the rocket. You still need the tower to actually fly through the atmosphere. That’s all part of the design of the Orion system. So that will be there. You just simply won’t execute an abort.
Host:Okay, so it’s there because it’s– I mean, the Launch Abort System is part of the rocket design.
Dr. Jon Olansen:That’s correct.
Host:Okay, all right.
Dr. Jon Olansen:So if we back up a little bit even, the Launch Abort System itself has three motors on it, three rocket motors that are included in that tower. There’s the abort motor that Jenny talked about that gets you up to the significant thrust on an abort. That’s what really generates the forces to pull the crew module away from the rocket if there is an issue during ascent. So there’s that abort motor. Up at the top of the tower, there’s an attitude control motor that fires at the same time. And it is a directional– it has directional valves actually, so you can control where the launch abort tower and the capsule go while you’re executing the abort. So you initiate that ascent, that pull away from the rocket, and then you want to reorient the capsule. So you’re using what’s called an attitude control motor to execute that function. And then the third is a jettison motor. And the jettison motor is what gets fired to actually separate the Launch Abort System from the crew capsule.
That jettison motor is needed, and is used, for every mission. Once you get out of the atmosphere on any Orion mission, you would jettison the Launch Abort System. You no longer need it.
Host:Hmm, okay, so there’s a get-away, get-away motor, right? That’s just get away really, really fast. And then, okay, which way are we going to go? There’s that motor. And then we’re done. The we’re done motor. And the we’re done motor is for, you know, in an abort scenario, detach it, so that way, I guess, the parachutes deploy?
Dr. Jon Olansen:That’s exactly right.
Host:Or if everything goes nominally, you, you know, fire the we’re done motor to actually get the Launch Abort System off.
Dr. Jon Olansen:Correct.
Host:All right, I like my version.
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:It’s very clear.
Host:If you want to consider renaming it the we’re done motor. So we’re obviously not testing an ascent abort on the space launch system, right? There’s a different vehicle that we’re going to be actually testing it on.
Dr. Jon Olansen:That’s correct.
Host:So what is it?
Dr. Jon Olansen:So we’re actually sitting on top of a decommissioned peacekeeper missile core that’s been used for other space flights as well. So that’s the booster that we’re using. It’s available at a lower cost to the agency. So that’s a prime option for us to use. It provides sufficient thrust, sufficient acceleration. As a matter of fact, because it’s so much smaller than the space launch system, right, the SLS sitting on the pad is very heavy, right? It can produce a lot of thrust. But it takes a while for it to accelerate and really get up to speed because it’s so heavy. Well, with this booster, it’s much lighter, much smaller, and so we actually have to add ballast to slow it down so we can get to the test conditions similar to what the SLS would see with an Orion onboard. As a matter of fact, we have to add over 120,000 pounds of ballast.
Host:Ballast is extra–
Dr. Jon Olansen:Extra weight.
Host:Extra weight. So even with that same amount of thrust, it’s not going to go as fast because you need to simulate test conditions.
Dr. Jon Olansen:Correct.
Host:Okay, so it’s still– even with a smaller vehicle, even with– it’s really the forces that you’re trying to understand is I guess this acceleration, you know, and the pressure, the dynamic pressure against the vehicle.
Dr. Jon Olansen:So we absolutely want to understand the aerodynamic pressures. We have a lot of microphones that are on the vehicle to understand sound pressure. When the abort motor goes off, the acoustic environment is largely what causes the vibration environment that Jenny was talking about earlier. And so we actually want to measure that both dynamically, as well as static pressures using regular pressure sensors. We have a lot of accelerometers, we have calorimeters so we understand thermal, we have regular temperature sensors, a lot of different type of sensors that are on the vehicle to help us understand all of those different environments that play a role in how the vehicle operates.
Host:So, okay, let’s kind of go back kind of go back to the initial planning for specifically this test, Ascent Abort-2. Now, it’s called Ascent Abort-2. We’ve done a pad abort, right? And I think that was Pad Abort-1.
Dr. Jon Olansen:That’s correct.
Host:So what about Ascent Abort-1, was that part of the journey?
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:So they laid out a manifest for a flight test, even just like they would lay out a manifest for shuttle flights, and then ended up picking this one as the condition. So each of the Ascent Abort tests that they defined had a certain condition under which they would abort. And when it came down to it, they decided that the conditions they had defined associated with two were the ones that they wanted to put the money on.
Host:Okay, so it has to do not with actual tests that have happened, but the planning for, you know, what do we want to test? Two looks good. Let’s go with two.
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:Yeah, that’s right.
Host:Okay, so when two was picked, now we start developing hardware. You know, what was happened up to this point to get to, now, Ascent Abort-2, the hardware is here, what has happened so far?
Dr. Jon Olansen:Great question. So early on, several years ago, when Pad Abort-1 was executed back in 2010, there was actually already progress on a crew module, on a capsule, for Ascent Abort-1 at that point in time before the decision was made that we didn’t need to do that one and wanted to move to just AA-2. That created a structure, a frame. That’s what we are using actually in this test. So we had to modify it because the Orion design modified from that point. But we are meeting the outer mold line, which means the shape of the Orion capsule, as well as its overall mass, its weight, and then its center of gravity, so where it rotates around. So those are the three parameters that we created that command module, crew module, excuse me, to meet. But that’s the structure side of it. That was the only piece that had anything started before the decision was made about three and a half years ago to execute this test. At that point in time, we started with the initial concept development, and then initial design of the entire avionics suite.
So we have the flight cuter design, the pyro control units, the power distribution units, the inertia measurement units, all the different avionics components, the data acquisition system. And then all of the wires that you use to connect all of those components. There’s over 11 miles of wiring in this capsule that we’ve instilled. So all of those had to go through design work to figure out how we were actually going to fly this test flight. The reason we did it that way started from scratch. Instead of using what Orion had already built, is we could focus on this flight test. It’s actually cheaper and less complex for us to be able to target this specific test. And so we’re building everything directly for this test. So it’s a unique design. It will never fly again for Orion, as far as the avionics system that we’re using.
Host:But the logic is cost-saving, right? So it gets you what you want, but ultimately this is the most efficient way to do it?
Dr. Jon Olansen:That’s exactly right.
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:And I think, you know, John’s talked about the crew module and what we’re doing for that. The Launch Abort System itself is actually being built by Lockheed Martin as a production article. And so they’re building the Launch Abort System for all of the future Orion vehicles. And so that’s the big thing under test. And so that’s why our crew module, our main objectives are to be able to help test that Launch Abort System. And so we don’t have to have all of the other things that the real Orion vehicle does. We have no crew systems. We aren’t going into space. So that changes what we need to have quite a bit. It doesn’t have to be able to hold pressure the same way. We’re only going up to our abort conditions at about 31,000 feet. And so we don’t have to have all of the same systems, which lets us choose what we put in it, and that’s where some of that cost savings comes in is how we go about selecting what we put in there.
Host:Right, yeah, I mean, because for a Launch Abort System, what you need to know in order to make sure that it’s going to work is what you have described, right, center of gravity, the mass, that sort of thing. So instead of just jamming all of this expensive equipment into a test article, you don’t really need it. You just need the weight where that, those systems would be, right?
Dr. Jon Olansen:So you need that. And then you also need the controllability of it. So the Launch Abort System itself operates on commands from the Orion vehicle. So the brains actually sit down in the Orion vehicle. So that’s why we had to create our own set of flight computers and the other components, because we still will send the Launch Abort System the appropriate commands so it flies in the right direction and orients the capsule the way it’s supposed to, just as though it were on an Orion vehicle.
Host:Oh, okay. So that’s an interesting point, actually, is the Launch Abort System, the thing that’s firing the motors, you know, that first motor, the get away, get away motor, is going to fire, but ultimately it’s the brains of the Orion that say where do we go next.
Dr. Jon Olansen:Correct.
Host:Interesting. Why is that?
Dr. Jon Olansen:It’s simply how the system was designed. You’re able to keep all of those, the control architecture, all of those boxes within the crew module itself. So from an accessibility perspective, from a test perspective, from an overall design perspective, you can embed what you need in flight computers that are already being built. You don’t have to build another flight computer, for example, that would sit up in the Launch Abort System, and would only work typically for jettison. It wouldn’t even be needed, right? And so you center that then instead in the Orion capsule.
Host:So let’s just take it to the, for example, if there were an abort scenario and crew were on board, because the brains are inside, would the crew be able to see kind of what’s going on? Would anything display for them, anything coming from those brains to display on the screens in front of them? Is that something that’s–
Dr. Jon Olansen:So the Orion capsule will have displays for the crew for all of the different functions, as they’re going through ascent. So they’ll be able to see data all the way through. The types of data will change depending on the phase that they’re in. So if they actually were in need of executing an abort, I would anticipate that there would be information on the screens. I do not work that area.
Host:Sure, sure, yeah.
Dr. Jon Olansen:So I can’t give you all that information. But I would anticipate they would have insight into that activity.
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:So the crew cockpit is set up to give them a maximum amount of information about everything that they can. When the abort is initiated automatically, which most of the conditions would be an automatic initiation, it accelerates the crew module away from the booster to about 490 miles per hour in 2.8 seconds. So by the time they register, they’ll already be in the middle of it, right? So they will certainly know what’s going on, because if the abort happens and the get away, get away motor fires, they’re going to know that that’s what occurred, and then they’ll be able to get the other information on the displays in terms of what, where they are, and what happened at that time.
Host:Okay, okay, yeah, especially, I mean, I’m imagining the amount of Gs that you’ve described too, it’s not like they’ll be able to really just kind of focus and maybe even push buttons. I think you’re pretty much locked in that chair, you know, just kind of going along for the ride at that point.
Dr. Jon Olansen:It is definitely an automated sequence that is executed. And that’s part of what we’re demonstrating. And so it’s important for us that we actually demonstrate it the same way it would happen with Orion.
Host:Right.
Dr. Jon Olansen:So the timing for all of our activities needs to match theirs to the millisecond to make sure that we are executing the same test.
Host:Yeah, that’s an important note to hit is there’s no big red abort button for the crew. This is, I mean, it would be something that the computers determine, right?
Dr. Jon Olansen:So there actually still will be a manual capability. But like Jenny said, typically, the human reaction will be too slow. And most issues, it would be an automated determination.
Host:There is a manual– is it a big red button?
Dr. Jon Olansen:I doubt that.
Host:All right, I’m going to keep it in my head that it is, but I know, I know for real that it’s not, though. Okay, that’s fine. All right, going back to the vehicle itself and some of the testing, you talked that Lockheed Martin is building the actual Launch Abort Systems. And then there’s this journey of the crew module too, right? So the hardware is here now. Where was everything built? Where did everything get tested? The journey there.
Dr. Jon Olansen:Okay, great. So as I was mentioning earlier, the structure had existed way back at the Pad Abort-1 time frame. But that was a small part of the entire journey. That was put together up at Langley Research Center in Virginia. And so they did the modifications, did the full build-out for the new Ascent Abort-2 flight test after we did all the analysis necessary to know what had to be done to change it, to make sure it could survive. So they did all the primary structure, we call it, all the basic out, outside of the capsule, all of the ribs, all of the pieces of the capsule that hold it together, that’s the primary structure. And then there’s the secondary structure. So I mentioned the palettes on the vibration isolation systems earlier, right?
Host:Yeah.
Dr. Jon Olansen:So they also built those types of components and put them in the vehicle. So that’s– so they built the primary and secondary structure up at Langley. At Armstrong Flight Research Center, they’re responsible for all of the instrumentation. So all of the sensors, all of the data acquisition system that’s being put together for the vehicle, and not just the crew module, so we have sensors, 450 or so up on the Launch Abort System, and we have 223 on the crew module, and then there’s some on the, what we call the separation ring, which I’ll mention in a minute, and then the booster itself. So over 850 sensors total. Armstrong is responsible for all of those, as well as the system that collects that data and sends the information down to the ground. So they have that responsibility. The other components, so the other systems, the avionics, the flight computers, like I mentioned, and the pyro control units, the power distribution units, the navigation units that we used to actually understand where we are and where we need to steer, those units are all designed and built here at JSC, and then delivered and integrated into the vehicle here.
There’s another system that we actually designed and built here with the invention aspect to it, which is what we call the ejectable data recorder. We mentioned how data is really an important part of this test. And we will be streaming the data down via telemetry, so we’ll get the data during the flight. But we needed a back-up means to make sure that we got the data in case there was a dropout for any reason. So we came up with what we call an ejectable data recorder system, we use a military flare chaff dispenser system that we’ve adapted, will mount on what we call the forward bay, the top of the crew module, and each one, we have two of those, each one has then six payloads. Those payloads will be ejected after the test is over as the vehicle is falling towards the ocean surface. So it will be ejected in 10-second increments, and they will have a thumb drive, a GPS receiver, a beacon, and they will tell us where they are after they hit the water on their own and float.
They will just send us a signal, and we’ll go out afterwards with a boat and scoop them up with a fishing net.
Host:Oh, cool. So it’s like, you’re going to get this real-time data, but, like you said, for whatever reason, if there is some sort of dropout, you’ve got these things firing off. You said, I think you said flare, are they going to look like flares during the test, or is it a different thing?
Dr. Jon Olansen:So they won’t actually be flares, but they are orange.
Host:Okay.
Dr. Jon Olansen:They’re about two inches by two inches by six inches long, roughly, and they sit in tubes, and they just get shot out each side as the crew module is falling. So there’s no, there’s no parachute on them, there’s no wings, there’s– it’s simply a foam that they’re encased in, and they survive falling from tens of thousands of feet into the– onto the ocean’s surface, and they just orient themselves upright and tell us where they are.
Host:That’s pretty cool. I’m imagining like a thunk sound whenever they’re drawing out. So it sounds like, you know, during the test, we can probably jump ahead, just because you’ve mentioned it before, the test itself is going to go into the ocean, right?
Dr. Jon Olansen:So that’s correct. Again, you go back to the cost aspects, the reason we were designing specific for this mission, this flight test, is to save cost. So we’re also not putting parachutes on the crew module. We are not– if we were to put parachutes, we would have to also put a reaction control system capability, the jets that actually stabilize the vehicle, that allow you to blow the forward bay cover off, the top of the vehicle off, that allows the parachutes to then be ejected or be released and used, then the software to control those, then you’re dealing with hazards, with putting fuel in those. So there’s a lot of reasons, a lot of things it would take to put parachutes onto the vehicle and use them. Tens of millions of dollars.
Host:Wow.
Dr. Jon Olansen:It would cost, to actually go through that. And we’re getting all of the qualification information. So we’re testing the parachutes and the reacting control system in other tests already. So there’s lots of information out about the CPAS system, the parachute testing that’s done out at Yuma, that’s been publicized widely. So all those tests are already done. We don’t need to have the parachutes on our test to demonstrate their performance. So, therefore, we’re not going to have them. And so the crew module will simply then fall to the ocean surface.
Host:Hard.
Dr. Jon Olansen:Hard.
Host:Is there any data that you’re collecting from that smack? Or, I guess, I don’t know.
Dr. Jon Olansen:So we’re not, actually. We’ll eject all of those data recorders before we hit the water.
Host:Oh, so even those things ejecting on the way down.
Dr. Jon Olansen:They’re ejecting on the way down.
Host:That means you’re not even collecting.
Dr. Jon Olansen:That’s right. Because that’s not– so our test is actually done 20 seconds after we jettison the Launch Abort System. The test is over.
Host:Oh, okay.
Dr. Jon Olansen:So from that point in time, we’re simply ejecting the data recorders, and then to go afterwards and pick them up. But the test has reached its conclusion, and we go from there.
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:Now, we keep collecting data all the way down, as long as we can, because engineers love data. And so we keep collecting everything we can until we hit the water and our communication is over.
Host:But the test itself, as soon as the data, little cards, what did you call them?
Dr. Jon Olansen:Ejectable data recorders.
Host:Ejectable data recorders are ejected, you’re done.
Dr. Jon Olansen:Yes, that’s exactly right.
Host:Okay, cool. Because really, what you want to test is the Launch Abort System, and making sure that that works.
Dr. Jon Olansen:That’s correct. The reentry piece, right, so the terminal entry, I should say, is not part of the test. So the vehicle will hit the water and it will sink.
Host:It will sink.
Dr. Jon Olansen:It will sink, and it will, it will become a reef. And we’ve worked environmentally with everyone out in Florida to make sure that there are no issues associated with that.
Host:Okay.
Dr. Jon Olansen:Absolutely.
Host:All right, well, I’m going to find it and go scuba diving.
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:You probably won’t be alone.
Host:Still pretty cool. So do we go through the whole journey of all the hardware yet? Did we talk about what we’re doing here yet? I don’t think so.
Dr. Jon Olansen:So we did not. So I talked about what Langley was doing and what Armstrong was doing, and that JSC was building these different components. We’ve had the crew module here since March 2nd. And we’ve been putting, doing what we call integration, assembly integration and test, where we’re putting all the components into the vehicle to get it ready for the flight. That really is something that we originally planned to take several months to get everything into the vehicle. Like I said, there’s 11 miles of wiring that we have to put into the vehicle. And you don’t just throw it in there. You’ve got to clamp it down to make sure it’s going to also survive all the vibration environments that we talked about. You’ve got to route it specifically, et cetera. So we’ve done all of that. And actually, we’re within about two weeks of closing up the vehicle at this point in time, being, whatever we’re at, July 20th today. All right, so we’re two weeks– I don’t know if you want that.
We’re two weeks away. So we close up the vehicle by August 3rd. And we’ll have completed all of the assembly and integration activities at that point in time. We’ll do what we call a weight and CG test, where we pick the vehicle up and we put it on other ground structures, and we actually measure its mass, measure its weight, and we measure its center of gravity in all three axes. And that means we have to also put it on a platform that has a cradle that rotates up on its side. So we actually turn the vehicle up on its side to measure its center of gravity. So we’ll do that activity. And then we go up to Plum Brook. Jenny, you can take it from here.
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:Okay, so yeah, we’ll come back and talk about Plum Brook. Back to part of the journey I wanted to mention in terms of our powered system testing. So Jon, when you were talking about the– our structure being built at Langley, I was picturing the frame of a car. The frame arrives, right, and so what do you put in it to make it go? We’re not doing propulsion. But from all the brains and all the computers associated with that, we’ve been working on those here at Johnson Space Center for years. And so we started off really early on with a very basic computer and the software to go in it, and it’s kept adding capability. And so we built up those brains, and that 11 miles of wiring, we’ve also had most of that in one of our laboratories. So in one of our labs, we have all the computers and all of the brains basically laid out on tables, right? So they’re all spread out.
Host:A lot of tables.
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:A lot of tables. And so that we can– we have a simulation we can run. And so we trick all those brains into thinking they’re really flying. And so we’ve been testing that here at Johnson Space Center for years to get it ready functionally to be able to put into that frame, into that vehicle when it arrives. And so that’s been one of the big efforts there. And one of the things that we do as we do that is start getting ready for the actual mission. So as we incrementally build up the capability of these computers and this software to fly the mission, we start building up our test team as well, our mission operations team, who will actually be going with the vehicle to Florida for running the mission operations. And so we start building up our displays and our control capability as we do that. And so really within the last couple of weeks, we’ve just taken all those brains and put them onto the frame of the vehicle, installed all of that hardware, and now we’re starting to run our actual mission simulations and do our mission operations training with the vehicle itself.
Dr. Jon Olansen:So we’ve taken all those brains who are the test team, and also installed them in our local control center to be able to execute those tests. And you’re spot on, Jenny. So Jenny is the test conductor, will be the test conductor for the actual flight test when we’re out in Florida. And so she’s serving in that role here as well. And then we train others as back-ups. So we run many different simulations. We built up the laboratory she was talking about, started running the flight-like components actually about a year and a half ago. And so we have over 800 runs, 800 simulation runs of the flight that we’re expecting to execute already.
Host:Wow. So there’s several journeys here. There’s the journey of the hardware itself going all over. But then there’s the journey just here at Johnson with the, you know, faking the test itself and tricking the computer so you can build up those systems and the reliability of them. And then the teams. So the teams are based here. And then it will be the teams here that go out to Florida, and you’ll be the one conducting the test?
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:That’s correct.
Dr. Jon Olansen:And so we will have parts of the team also that are from Armstrong for the instrumentation side, and from Langley, for the structure side. So we will have them as a part of the test. We’re all one team. So we will work that together. But a bulk of the positions that deal with the flight computers and the GNC, the guidance navigation control aspects, that’s all housed here at JSC.
Host:Okay, so representation from multiple centers.
Dr. Jon Olansen:Absolutely.
Host:But, yeah, housed here, a lot of them housed here. So you were about to mention Plum Brook. What’s happening in Plum Brook?
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:Yes, so NASA Plum Brook station up in Ohio, they have a phenomenal set of environmental test facilities of different kinds. And one of theirs is an acoustic test facility. Actually, when you walk in it, you see what look like giant speakers on the wall. It blasts you with a lot of sound. And they do that in order to replicate the acoustics associated with the get away, get away motor, the abort motor, that one.
Host:I love that you’re taking it on.
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:So they, so they want to reproduce that environment. It’s actually really all those sensors that Jon talked about that are all over the vehicle, especially the microphones and the accelerometers, are really there to measure that environment. And so they can– we can take the vehicle up there and subject it to that similar environment so that when we fly, they’ve got a baseline to compare it to. And so they’ll go up there and they’ll subject it to some of those and collect a lot of data that we can use for comparison.
Dr. Jon Olansen:And so once we’ve done that test, which is also critical data, as Jenny was mentioning, so we’ll bring the crew module back here to JSC. In the meantime, Langley is still working on building out what we call a separation ring. That ring serves as the interface between the crew module and the booster. So it’s– picture it. It is just a ring that the crew module sits inside of and attaches to. It mimics actually the front end of basically the top three and a half feet or so of the Orion surface module. It provides the same interface that an Orion crew module would see. So they’re building that right now. That will be shipped down here to JSC while the crew module is up at Plum Brook. We still have some outfitting of that to do. We have to install harnesses just like we did in the crew module. We have to put wires in there and do checkout of all the systems that are in the separation ring. When the crew module comes back here, we put the two pieces together. And that’s where we also use mechanisms. Jenny had mentioned the Launch Abort System is a production unit from Lockheed, the mechanisms that actually connect the pieces together, so connect the crew module to the separation ring, and then also connect the Launch Abort System to the crew module, those mechanisms are also production units built by Lockheed Martin. They have explosive bolts in them. Those are the things that we actually control timing of as well so we can separate the pieces at the right times when we need to, when the different rocket motors fire. So, so we’ll do that integration, that mating of the crew module to the separation ring here this fall, and then we’ll ship that short stack out to KSC by December. And then from then on, everything is out at KSC and Cape Canaveral, and we’ll be doing all our work in preparation for launch out there.
Host:Wow, okay, so it’s just going to Plum Brook for that acoustic testing, coming back here for assembly of some of the parts before it goes out to KSC for that final test.
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:That’s right.
Host:By the end of the year. All right, that’s a lot. That’s a lot of work to do. I’m surprised you guys are here. You should be working.
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:That’s what he keeps telling me.
Dr. Jon Olansen:So the nice thing is we also have a great team that is doing a lot of work. And so they actually are still back in the hanger working as we speak.
Host:Did we touch on where the Launch Abort System is being built? You said at Lockheed Martin, but where at Lockheed Martin?
Dr. Jon Olansen:So there are multiple places, actually.
Host:Multiply places.
Dr. Jon Olansen:Yeah, so the motors themselves are built by different companies. So the jettison motor, I believe, is Aerojet Rocketdyne.
Host:Okay.
Dr. Jon Olansen:And the attitude control motor and the abort motor are Northrop Grumman. They just took over orbital ATK, right? So that’s who’s providing those motors. A lot of the assembly is being done, or the build is being done at Michoud Assembly Facility.
Host:Oh, okay.
Dr. Jon Olansen:So there’s, there’s a lot of the buildup of the launch support system that goes on there. And then the components get shipped to KSC. And the actual integration of the Launch Abort System occurs at what’s called the LASF, the Launch Abort System Facility, on Kennedy Space Center property at KSC.
Host:Okay, so that’s important. Because all the crew stuff and the ring that’s going to be assembled here, and then the Launch Abort System and crew module will go to Kennedy Space Center, and then–
Dr. Jon Olansen:That’s where they get connected, that’s exactly right.
Host:Okay.
Dr. Jon Olansen:And then once they are mated together, you’ll actually roll that whole set, the separation ring, the crew module and the launch support system on top, you roll that all out to the launch pad, and the booster will actually be built up on the launch pad itself. So the last thing you do then is put the rest of it up on top of the booster and then bolt the separation ring to the booster, and then you’re ready to go.
Host:Then you’re ready to go. That’s got to be an exciting time for you guys. I’m sure you’re very much looking forward to it.
Dr. Jon Olansen:Absolutely.
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:Yeah, yeah, it’s very exciting. When we did our launch countdown test this week on Tuesday with the actual crew module, you know, it was– it started to get a little real there, doing the launch countdown.
Host:We’re going to be doing this for real very soon. That’s pretty cool. So what are we, what are we aiming for for the actual test day and the events of the leading to test day?
Dr. Jon Olansen:So we’re looking to launch April, late April.
Host:That’s what I meant. Sorry, launch. Like the actual launch day.
Dr. Jon Olansen:So we’re looking to launch late April.
Host:Late April, okay.
Dr. Jon Olansen:Time frame. Which is actually eight months early. So last summer, the agency asked us if we could fly early. And so we accelerated the mission. One of the main reasons is that from the crew module and separation ring perspective we could do that was what Jenny talked about, the fact that we were already doing testing with hardware and software in the lab from early on. It’s kind of a different approach that we were taking from a lean development perspective. And so we were out there ahead of the game with software development and hardware development. So that allowed us to accelerate the mission. Still required us in the integration activities here at JSC, we’ve had the time has been working dual shift six days a week for three months to try to get the vehicle put together.
Host:Wow.
Dr. Jon Olansen:So it’s a lot of effort to really make sure that we have everything done the way it needs to be done.
Host:Wow, that’s a lot of work. Six days a week. So rotating in, constantly doing testing. Where in Johnson is all of this happening, by the way?
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:So our building is Building 9 South where we have our vehicle located. And that’s where most of our work is happening right now. We’ve had participation from all over sites. So before all the hardware and software showed up in our building, there were other places, other organizations that were working on it.
Host:Okay, so that’s by this space vehicle backup facility, really close to that, right?
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:Yes.
Dr. Jon Olansen:It’s just on the other side of it.
Host:Exactly, yeah. Now, so, both of you are focusing a lot on this test, right? So your jobs are dedicated to this test, is that correct?
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:Right.
Dr. Jon Olansen:That is correct.
Host:I mean, with that kind of time dedication, I couldn’t imagine doing multiple things. But what other things have you done for NASA? How did you guys get to this point?
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:Well, I’ll start. So I have been here since I interned in college. I went to Texas A&M University. And since I graduated, I’ve been here at NASA. So pretty long career so far. But my background was in guidance navigation and control. So I was there for 15 years, and then started getting more into systems engineering. The project that we worked on, that we both worked on right before this was, was a lander, the Morpheus lander project. And so actually quite a bit of our team worked on Morpheus and moved onto the AA-2 project. And so one of the things I want to make sure I mention, Jon talked about lean development, one of the things that we’ve been fortunate to be able to do, both as part of Morpheus and as this project, is consider ways that we can do business differently. How can we be more efficient? What kind of areas can we look at that we can do with less process, overhead associated with it? And so that’s been a big benefit. And so we’ve carried that through from Morpheus onto this project as well.
Host:Yeah, doing things efficiently. That seems to be a lot of the theme of what you’re saying, is this test– you’re doing it efficiently, both in terms of cost and the research dedicated to it and everything.
Dr. Jon Olansen:Absolutely. That’s correct.
Host:So what about you, Jon?
Dr. Jon Olansen:So I’ve been here a little bit longer than Jenny has. I actually came down here after I had gotten my degree at Notre Dame. Back in ’89, I came down here. I worked as a flight controller for seven years for space shuttle. So I was fortunate enough to do that, supported 32 missions, which was a great opportunity, great learning experience over in the mission operations director. Did that, and then decided I wanted to go get a little more education. So I went back to Rice, and I got my Ph.D. in biomechanical engineering, and then used that in the astronaut office actually dealing with biomedical payloads going to the space station for a little while until I got back into mechanical, more mechanical type work. Still with space shuttle. But since then, I’ve kind of moved around quite a bit, you know? I tell people pretty much I can’t keep a job. But I’ve worked in Safety and Mission Assurance Directorate, flight operations directorate, I worked in the space shuttle program when we– the decision was made to actually retire the space shuttle. I was part of the team that actually started the transition retirement activities here at JSC, worked up at headquarters, and then worked contract management actually in the engineering directorate before working Morpheus. So there’s a whole wide, wide gamut.
Host:That is a broad resume. That is very broad. Now, kind of bouncing off of that, you know, understanding the scope of everything that we do here at NASA, going back to AA-2, this is a test mission. And I’m sure you guys are really laser focused on this mission. But the reason that we’re doing it is to build the capability to go further out into the Solar System. That’s really what it comes down to, is this is going to test the capability for the Orion capsule, and, you know, that’s going to sit on top of this gigantic rocket that’s going to bring us further out. So what are some of the thoughts there? You know, this is just a step on this grander mission. What are you guys looking forward to for exploring deeper into the Solar System?
Dr. Jon Olansen:So I actually think there’s a reason that I’m here, the reason that a lot of us are here is to do exactly what you said. It’s all about that exploration. Whether we’re working on the Morpheus lander, that activity was all because we had thoughts of what’s needed to go to Mars, right? What are things that will help when we get to Mars? So that whole activity. Helping or working this flight test, it’s all just, like you said, it’s about advancing Orion so that we can get crews back out into deep space exploration. And then moving forward, there’s so many different potential architectures out there. All of them require the capabilities that we’re demonstrating as a team that we’re able to do. Whether you’re doing it hands-on or working with others to execute them, having that experience base is what is needed to actually execute those missions. So regardless of which architecture moves forward and what the next mission actually is, we’re trying to make sure that we have a team that’s fully capability and competent to execute those missions.
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:And I would agree with that. I think, as you mentioned, we’re here, we all love space, and we want to see human space exploration and go out as far and as fast as we can. And so one of the unique opportunities, again, that we really get from this activity, is trying to find ways to help enable that in the future. So by talking about efficiency and processes and those types of things, we’re really trying to help set us up as an agency, as an organization, for how to do engineering better, how to collaborate better, how to make sure that we know what we’ve done and what we’ve got ahead of us, how we do that planning, how you bring all of those things together. And so that’s been a really critical aspect for us as well. And we’ve had the opportunity to try some unique and innovative approaches on how we go about that. And so setting that up, it’s not just for this project, it’s for the next thing, whatever it is in human space flight that we can take these lessons learned and apply them as we move forward.
Dr. Jon Olansen:And all of that activity is anchored in an understanding of risk. It’s all about how, how you adjudicate risk, how you understand it, and how you move forward with making decisions that are based in risk.
Host:That’s right. Because really, I mean, ultimately, it’s going to be a human inside of these vehicles. So what are you going to put your thumbs up on really is what it comes down to. What are you comfortable with? And to do that, to have that as a giant consideration on top of this new style, or a different style of engineering, of looking at a lean way to do things, which is, I mean, I’m sure all businesses would very much appreciate that sort of thing, especially because we are on top of this, on top of this exploration effort, trying to build a capability for commercializing low Earth orbit and to build up this space industry, which we have a lot of players, all of whom we’ve mentioned today, right? We mentioned Northrop Grumman. We mentioned Lockheed Martin. Like all of these are players in the space industry. And even, you know, companies, Aerojet Rocketdyne, you know, all of these, all of these folks. I’m getting excited for this, as you can tell. Do you guys see a lot of the same interests? Because you guys are experts in this, obviously in this test. But when people ask you about it, do you see a lot of interest into what you’re doing and how we’re pushing forward?
Dr. Jon Olansen:I see very much, you’re right. There is a lot of interest. We get a lot of requests for people to come out and look at what we’re doing, understand what we’re doing. We do a number of interviews, a number of tours. In addition to just pursuing exploration, having a full spacecraft that you’re building on site here at JSC is not necessarily a common occurrence. And so the interest is very high for us to be doing this work. And that extends to the work that JSC and NASA is doing and looking to do beyond where we are today. So yes, there is definitely interest in people coming to us. But there’s also– we reach out. We spend a lot of time reaching out as most NASA employees do, talking to schools, talking to other places, right, to talk about what it is that we do. There’s always interest in the fact that we’re putting together a fully integrated complex spacecraft that we’re going to fly. And we’re not handing it off to someone else. We get to do all of the different parts of it. And there’s a lot of intrigue that goes along with that when we talk in the general public.
Host:I’m definitely interested. And that’s why I have you guys here. And I’m glad you can take the time out to talk with me today. If you’re listening, come out. Jon and Jenny, you can bother them. They’re going to be very busy, but you can bother them, and, you know, see some of the great stuff that we’re doing here. Otherwise, you know, we’re looking forward to that test next year. So this is great. Thank you guys both for coming on today, Jon and Jenny, and explaining about this test. Really looking forward to seeing the real deal out in Florida. But obviously a lot of work to do for the rest of the year. Let’s get to it.
Dr. Jon Olansen:Absolutely. Thank you very much for having us.
Mrs. Jenny Devolites:Yeah, thanks. This was a lot of fun.
[ Music ]
Host:Hey, thanks for sticking around. So today, we talked with Jon Olansen and Jenny Devolites about this mission we have coming up, Ascent Abort-2. Very excited for that mission coming up in April of next year, at least at the time of this recording. If you’d like to listen to more stuff going around NASA, you can listen to our friends over at the Kenney Space Center. They have a podcast called Rocket Ranch. They’ll be the ones actually doing the test over there in the Kenney Space Center, obviously with teams from all around NASA. But listen to Rocket Ranch to see what’s going on over there. Otherwise, you can listen to Gravity Assist at NASA in Silicon Valley. Also, great sources of all things NASA. We talked with Jon and Jenny about coming to visit and C see AA-2 for the next couple of months, I guess while it’s here before at the end of the year it gets shipped off to the Kenney Space Center. Our visitor center at Space Center of Houston has tours available where you can come and see that. So if you want to hear more interviews here on Houston, we have a podcast about Orion. You can check out a few of our episodes. Episode 35, A Ride in Orion, where we talk with Jeff Fox, the chief engineer of the Rapid Prototype Lab.
We actually go inside the Orion capsule during the Exploration Flight Test 1, and actually hear audio from that capsule. So you can actually take a ride in Orion. Episode 17, we talk with Nujoud Merancy about just sort of overall Orion. We talk about a lot of the mission planning and what to expect for the first couple of those flights. And basically the vehicle as a whole, a nice overview. And then once again, as mentioned in the intro, Episode 25, A Rocket on a Rocket, just a wonderful title. Talked with Wahab Alshahin about just Launch Abort Systems in general. He gave a great overview of just the logic behind that, and goes into a little bit more detail into what some of the systems that go into this particular test, and what we can expect there and how that’s going to look. On social media, you can visit our pages for the NASA Orion spacecraft. On Facebook, it’s NASA Orion. Twitter, it’s @nasa_orion. And on Instagram, it’s @explorenasa. Use the hashtag ask NASA. On any one of your favorite platforms, use the Houston, we have a podcast in your comment, and we’ll make sure to bring it on the show later.
So this episode was recorded on July 20th, 2018. Thanks to Alex Perryman, Pat Ryan, Bill Stafford, Rachel Kraft, Kelly Humphries, and Natalie Gogins. Thanks again to Jon Olansen and Jenny Devolites for coming on the show. We’ll be back next week.