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Art and Spaceflight

Season 1Episode 129Jan 31, 2020

Retired astronaut Nicole Stott, an artist who uses painting to express the feelings and emotions she experienced on station, talks about her spaceflight experience and the importance of art as a form of expression and inspiration. HWHAP Episode 129.

Art and Spaceflight

Art and Spaceflight

If you’re fascinated by the idea of humans traveling through space and curious about how that all works, you’ve come to the right place.

“Houston We Have a Podcast” is the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center from Houston, Texas, home for NASA’s astronauts and Mission Control Center. Listen to the brightest minds of America’s space agency – astronauts, engineers, scientists and program leaders – discuss exciting topics in engineering, science and technology, sharing their personal stories and expertise on every aspect of human spaceflight. Learn more about how the work being done will help send humans forward to the Moon and on to Mars in the Artemis program.

On Episode 129 retired astronaut Nicole Stott, an artist who uses painting to express the feelings and emotions she experienced on station, talks about her spaceflight experience and the importance of art as a form of expression and inspiration. This episode was recorded on December 9th, 2019.

Houston, we have a podcast

Transcript

Gary Jordan (Host): Houston, we have a podcast. Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, Episode 129, “Art and Spaceflight.” I’m Gary Jordan, I’ll be your host today. On this podcast we bring in the experts, scientists, engineers, astronauts, all to let you know what’s going on in the world of human spaceflight. We’re lucky enough to talk to a number of astronauts on this podcast. Some of them are experienced astronauts, with one or more flights under their belt. Others about to embark on the journey for the first time. Nicole Stott is one of those experienced astronauts. She retired back in 2015 after completing a long duration stay on the station for Expedition 20 and 21 in 2009, along with a spacewalk. And a space shuttle mission STS-133 in 2011. And this comes after an extensive career at NASA, working across multiple centers, in multiple disciplines. After retiring, Stott turned her attention to paintings and art as a way to communicate the feelings and emotions she experienced on orbit and as a way for kids to engage in human spaceflight. So, here we go. A fascinating conversation with Nicole Stott about her spaceflight experience and the importance of art as a form of expression and as a form of inspiration. Enjoy.

[ Music ]

Host: Nicole, thanks so much for coming on the podcast today.

Nicole Stott: Nice to be here, thanks.

Host: Really appreciate your time. You’re here to record one of our video series called “Down to Earth,” right?

Nicole Stott: I am and for my flight medical. [laughter]

Host: Oh, of course.

Nicole Stott: Every year.

Host: So, flight medical that means — you know after retiring as an astronaut you still have to come back every once in a while, for medical reasons?

Nicole Stott: Yeah, they try to keep track of us so.

Host: OK.

Nicole Stott: They’ll get us back here once a year and they do pretty much the same test they would do on you if you were still here as an active astronaut.

Host: So, I guess biological, just making sure you’re healthy, almost like a physical or is it deeper than that?

Nicole Stott: It’s a lot like a physical, it’s like a really good physical. And then like this time for instance I’ll be doing a [Dual energy X-ray absorptiometry] DEXA scan to look at my bone density, and some ultra sounds, and you know things like that where they’re doing, they have this thing called a longitudinal study, I can never say it. Where they want to look over time at how, you know how your body is changing since flying in space. And if they can do that with as many as astronauts as possible, they might actually be able to figure something out. Yeah.

Host: Data is good.

Nicole Stott: It is good, yeah.

Host: Talking to a lot of, lot of scientists so. Having that sort of long-term data even after spaceflight. Because you’ve had a long duration spaceflight and you’ve had a short duration spaceflight so.

Nicole Stott: Yep.

Host: So, having that data will be nice. Well, today since you’re here I really wanted to go through your story if that’s OK.

Nicole Stott: OK.

Host: From, from your childhood all the way through what you’re doing now.

Nicole Stott: I’m old, I’ll have to remember it all. Yeah. [Laughter]

Host: Well it says you were born in New York, but I guess Clearwater, Florida is more like home.

Nicole Stott: Yeah, my parents, I was born in Albany, New York, but they moved to Florida when, I don’t even think I was a year old, so. I don’t think I can respectfully claim Albany as a hometown, you know? And yeah, I grew up in Clearwater and now we’re back just down the road in St. Petersburg after 20 years in Houston, yeah.

Host: Alright, so you like Florida then?

Nicole Stott: I love Florida, yes.

Host: Yeah, yeah, I have family there too, so we visit, we’re actually going up for Christmas.

Nicole Stott: Ooh very good.

Host: Should be nice, not your white Christmas, but I don’t know, a beach Christmas is not too bad.

Nicole Stott: It isn’t.

Host: Alright so, so what’s interesting is you, from childhood it seems like going, I guess I’m going to skip ahead to your college education. Because you are, went for aeronautical engineering at Embry-Riddle, Florida.

Nicole Stott: Uh-hum.

Host: So, did you always know that you wanted to go into engineering, did you have some sort of maybe spark of inspiration that led you in that direction?

Nicole Stott: Well, I grew up, I mean my parents very thankfully we tried to do this with our son too, just shared what they loved with us. And my mom a very creative person, you know if I was going to get to ballet lesson it was because my mom was going to get me there. And my dad built and flew small airplanes. And so, as a family we hung out at the local airport pretty much every weekend. And that’s where I think I developed a love for flying. I knew I wanted to do something that had to do with flying at the time. I knew I wanted a pilot’s license, but I didn’t think I wanted to be a pilot for a job, you know. And so, I really got to the point where I was like, wow I’d like to know how things fly. And that’s what took me down the engineering path, but I’ll tell you when I was getting ready to graduate from high school. I didn’t even, I didn’t know what engineering was.

Host: Oh really?

Nicole Stott: I really didn’t. I honestly didn’t even really know if I for sure was going to go to college. And I saw most of the people that I was, that I was hanging at, that were my best friends in school, they were going off to college and so I decided to do the same thing. Sadly, my dad had been killed in a small airplane crash when I was 16. So, you know having kind of this, you know like path of, OK you’re going to graduate from high school, you’re going to go to college. I don’t know I wasn’t really thinking about it that way. But, figured out, want to know how things fly, talked to somebody who told me about aeronautical engineering, thankfully they didn’t tell me how difficult aeronautical engineering was, because I don’t know at that point, you know, if I was even trying to think about going to college would I have chosen that. And it was the best thing, I mean it ended up being the best thing because I think, you know if you want to know how airplanes fly, why in the world would you not want to know how rocket ships fly. And Embry-Riddle was right down the road, I mean right down the street from, or up the street from Kennedy Space Center.

Host: Did you have some time in planes even through middle school, maybe high school, just flying maybe small aircraft or really, I mean you were just interested in it?

Nicole Stott: No, no, no like, you know with my dad, like I said we were out at the airport and if he was building an airplane, he built two small, you know that you actually fly in, like aerobatic airplanes, he built two biplanes. One was a Starduster Too and one was a Skybolt. And so, as a kid I was strapped into the front cockpit of those things and going out and flying with him all the time. And there were other people at the airpark that I would go flying with. And so, it was just part of this normal thing that I did as a kid. And when I graduated from high school, I didn’t go straight to Embry-Riddle, I stayed local and I went to the local community college or at the time it was St. Petersburg Junior College. And that’s now St. Pete College and they had this really great program called Aviation Administration. Which was kind of a, I know it was kind of an aviation business program, but you could earn your private pilot’s license as part of the program out at St. Pete Clearwater Airport. So, I’m like, oh this is awesome, you know I’ll go there.

Host: That was the draw.

Nicole Stott: Yeah, I can work on my pilot’s license, get that while I’m at this school, it was local, I didn’t have to move away at the time and I could do all the, you know the little, the basic courses that you have to do regardless of what degree program you’re going for. You know I could do that while I was there and then transfer over to Embry-Riddle.

Host: Did you, it seems like you were definitely into planes, but I heard a little bit about rockets too, you said how rockets fly, was there interest early on or maybe that sparked a little bit later?

Nicole Stott: There absolutely was, I mean I know you’re looking at me across this table thinking there’s no way she could possibly be old enough to have watched that first Moon landing, yeah, but laugh. [Laughter]

Host: We’re getting it all out.

Nicole Stott: No, silly thought. And laughing is good. It’s real and so I watched that with my family, I mean I have vivid memory of sitting in front of the black and white TV with a grilled cheese sandwich for some reason and watching people on the Moon. I mean it was incredible and then we would go outside and look at the Moon and talk about it and stuff. But, I’ll tell you it was a real long time before I thought that this idea of astronaut could be real or pursuing anything really to do with rockets could be real. And because it seemed like, especially with the astronaut job, that oh that’s something other special people get to do. You know, why should I think that that’s anything they would pick me to do. And, yeah thankful ultimately the mentors that encouraged me.

Host: Yeah, cause you eventually, I mean you didn’t go to NASA first to be an astronaut. You ended up at NASA through some other, some other avenues. I think you were in the private industry for a little bit.

Nicole Stott: Yeah.

Host: Before going to NASA.

Nicole Stott: Yeah and I was in the private, it ended up being a great job for about a year and a half worked right out of college at Pratt and Whitney down in West Palm Beach. And they were doing really cool designs on advanced engines and, you know I mean it was really super top secret, you’re off in this like bunker office that has three level, I mean you don’t know if it’s day or night when you leave and stuff. And it was really interesting to see that side of engineering. Because for me what it made me realize is, I didn’t want to do that side of engineering, it was interesting, I mean that was what you would consider very, like hardcore engineering was being done. And I always knew I was a hands-on person. And I discovered it more while I was there, I’m very thankful for the people that like that kind of work. And want to design really cool things that way. But I got that job, I had applied to NASA at Kennedy Space Center for one of their shuttle operations jobs. And at the time they weren’t hiring. And so, I took the job at Pratt and Whitney, really, I mean I enjoyed the time there and learned a lot. And while I was there I got a call from the folks at Kennedy Space Center. And they were — putting together a whole new kind of pool of young engineers, we were, it was just after return to flight, after Challenger. And it was awesome, it was like this group of young engineers coming in from all over the country and they were plopping us into the orbiter processing facility and the launch control center, and all of the active operational places where you would have like physically be able to go touch the space shuttle.

Host:Oh wow.

Nicole Stott: And to me there was, I mean there was like nothing better than that.

Host: Yeah. Now, well what surprised me is you, you said you applied but they weren’t hiring at the time, that means I guess during your time in college, even before you got to Pratt and Whitney, deal outside of college. You were interested in working for Kennedy even?

Nicole Stott: Oh yeah.

Host: Yeah.

Nicole Stott: Yeah, because while, I mean while I was at school and you know I was studying about how airplanes fly and then, you know we had this jet and rocket class and I, I took that and then of course you know the space center is right there. You know, I mean you can’t miss it and things are going on there and while I was at school, I mean that’s when, you know sadly is when Challenger happened. And but then there was always the buildup, I mean you always knew that NASA was getting things back together, getting, you know ready to start flying again. And that was exciting to me. And I just really wanted to work there. And so thankful that, you know they tracked me down at Pratt and what’s cool is, like you know a lot of the work that was going on at Pratt and Whitney was directly associated with the Space Shuttle Program too. You know, I got to do a little bit of work with the guys that did the turbo pumps. And all of the, you know really fast spinning teeny tiny mechanisms that work inside the shuttle to make it fly. And so, maintained a relationship with all of those folks out there while I was working at Kennedy Space Center too. And they were excited to see me, I don’t know if they were excited to see me go, we won’t say that, but they were excited that I was going to get to go off and do, you know the job that I would really want to do.

Host: Yeah, yeah you already got interest in it.

Nicole Stott: Yeah.

Host: So, what were you doing, I guess when you first started, you said it was in operations.

Nicole Stott: Yeah, I started, there were two main groups in the shuttle program at Kennedy. There was the shuttle operations and shuttle engineering. And I started in shuttle operations and I was an engineer in the orbiter processing facility. Which is kind of, it’s like a big garage, it’s like a hangar where the orbiter part of the space shuttle would be worked on to get it ready for flight. And had all these big like scaffolding all around it and I mean if you walked into that facility and you didn’t know where to look for the space shuttle, or for the orbiter, you wouldn’t see it. Somebody would have to point it, OK it’s above your head or it’s behind that, you know that piece of structure that’s wrapped around it.

Host: Wow.

Nicole Stott: I mean it’s a really really great facility. And that’s where I started, right on that hangar floor and it was, it was a lot like a, I call it more of a project management job really. Because we were responsible for just tracking through and making sure that all the work was done to get the orbiter out of that facility and moved over to the vehicle assembly building, so it could be hooked up with the external tank and the solid rocket boosters, and rolled out to the pad, and you know launch from there. Yeah, it was great. I mean it was great.

Host: Yeah. What, well what was particularly interesting about the orbiter, I mean it captured the hearts and minds of so many people for 30 years that it was flying. It was a beautiful vehicle, but what really struck you about this particular vehicle?

Nicole Stott: Well I think, and it still does now when people ask me, like to reflect on the, kind of the legacy of it, or the significance of it. I look at it like, you know a lot of things, especially from an engineering side, you know a lot of things that are designed where they want it to do five different things and they want to do all five things well. It usually doesn’t happen. Usually three, two or three of those things are sacrificed a little and the other things are done OK. But, you know kind of the design by a committee thing. Doesn’t usually work that well. The space shuttle I think is just such a beautiful example of how that worked really well. I mean it launches people to space, it took a significant amount of cargo to space, it could be used as a laboratory itself, you could live there, you know in space for quite a while and then we had these tanks you could strap on the back, you know in the payload bay and make it stay up there longer. Could dock to space stations, I mean all of these things that you could do with this vehicle that, you know I think it’s going to be a long time before we see a spacecraft like that again. Now there might be reasons why you would separate those things, so you do your people one way, do your cargo one way, all of that. But, you know in hindsight when you look at the space shuttle and you see how just wonderfully it performed all of those things, or supported crews to perform all of those things, I mean it’s amazing. And then you’ve landed on a runway. [Laughter]

Host: Yeah.

Nicole Stott: I mean it was really, you know human, there should be that little wheel stop chirp you know and then the nose wheel down kind of thing. I think that’s, yeah, that’s a good thing.

Host: So, when did you start switching your thought process to this is interesting, I want to understand how these things fly, I want to work on the orbiter too, I want to fly in the orbiter.

Nicole Stott: Yeah, I’m actually a little slow I guess, because I worked at Kennedy for almost ten years. And it was probably eight years into that when I started thinking, hey you know what about this astronaut thing. And that happened I think primarily because I had, working there I had the chance to work in so many different places that were part of getting the space shuttle ready to fly. And I think about some of my friends who had engineering jobs where, like every three or four years they would move to a whole new company, so they could get experience doing something else. And I had that right at Kennedy Space Center. So, I moved out of doing the job on the orbiter processing facility, to being a project engineer on one of the vehicles for a while, to being in the launch control center, to doing the convoy commander job on the runway with all the vehicles, you know getting the crew out and the vehicle back to the hangar again. So, I got to see this, just almost end to end of the process. And involved with that seeing the astronauts come through and learning more about what they do and the kind of people they are, and their backgrounds. And I realized you know it’s like, 99.9 percent of an astronaut’s job is not flying in space. Sadly, you know.

Host: Yeah.

Nicole Stott: And at least 80 percent of it, and that’s probably low was a lot like what I was doing already as a NASA engineer. And so that just got me thinking, oh, you know so maybe the background, the experience I have would, you know meet the requirements. And I still don’t think I would’ve ever picked up the pen, because you had to do that back then, it wasn’t electronic and to pick up a pen. And fill out the application without the encouragement of a couple people that I consider to be mentors at work. And, and all those people did, I mean all they said to me was, you know they didn’t say oh Nicole you’ll make the greatest astronaut there ever was, you know kind of thing, they might not think that now. But, they, what they said to me was, pick up the pen and fill out the application. And just hearing somebody else say it encouraged me to do it. And I am so thankful to those people, when I see them I thank them. And I try to encourage others I’m like, you know because we try to think about, you know in a lot of cases we don’t have control over a lot of things. There’s not a lot of things we can do to make something happen. But, we have absolute total control over filling out the application. And it’s amazing how we can just self-sabotage so many times. And young girls especially I think second guess themselves a lot. And I think just that kind of, OK just pick up the pen, it doesn’t, you know, doesn’t cost you anything, it doesn’t hurt you, you know.

Host: Yeah.

Nicole Stott: You have total control over doing that.

Host: So that push was definitely very helpful, what was your pitch when during the interview process? What did you say, this is why I should be an astronaut?

Nicole Stott: I don’t know.

Host: Oh really.

Nicole Stott: I don’t know, you know I don’t, they never really ask you that question directly.

Host: Huh.

Nicole Stott: You know they ask you questions about why you, at least I remember from my interview they ask questions about, you know why you would want to be an astronaut, you know what excites you about it, what, you know inspired you to do it? Maybe, maybe that why do you think you would be good comes through the questions of, you know what your experience is all about and that kind of thing. I think the time I had at Kennedy Space Center was, I mean it was just key to being ready to do this. And you know I didn’t get selected, I was really fortunate to get an interview the first time I applied. And I didn’t get selected and I remember being, I was still at Kennedy working. And they were having one of the, like a flight readiness review or something for a space shuttle launch and David Leestma was there. He’s an astronaut and he was the head of the astronaut office at the time. And I knew him through interactions with the program at Kennedy. And so, when the day came where they were going to be making all the phone calls that you normally get the phone call get told, you know, yes. Cause if you don’t get a phone call you’re usually getting, you know you get like a little email or something.

Host: Oh.

Nicole Stott: And tell you no. But I was fortunate to be at Kennedy Space Center and Dave was there and he tracked me down and he told me, you know sorry Nicole we’re not, you know we’re not bringing you on this time. And you know here’s me having, like not cry in front of him kind of thing, cause it’s a little bit, it’s emotional you know. Even if you go into that thinking, OK there’s no chance, you know just enjoy the interview process, enjoy meeting all these people. And just know, you know thinking that it’s not going to happen. It’s kind of like going out for cheerleading, you might think you don’t care if you don’t get it, but you kind of do. And so, he’s telling me, he’s like well you know but we would really love it if you could come work for us at Johnson Space Center out at Ellington Field and fly as a flight engineer on the shuttle training aircraft. And I’m like, and he said something like, we’d really like you to get some operations experience. And I remember thinking then, like OK don’t say it out loud, but you’ve been working for ten years in shuttle operations, what does he mean you know? And so, yeah so I ended up taking this job here at Johnson Space Center and out, I mean imagine this, you know you’re a person who was inspired by wanting to know how things fly, wanting to fly yourself, and now after having this, you know working hands on, up close and personal with the vehicles themselves, now I’m going to get have an office that’s at an airport. And I’m going to get to fly in T-38 jets and I’m going to get to fly in the shuttle training aircraft and we’ll maybe get a flight every now and then on the Zero-g airplane, I mean it didn’t seem like it could get any better.

Host: Yeah, but that was, I mean you could’ve stayed there and probably been very happy right, even there it seemed like that was like the dream.

Nicole Stott: Absolutely, I mean I think about it now, I’m like actually every single one of the jobs I had along the way, I would’ve been happy with for a long time. And I like thinking back now that I didn’t really have, I don’t know maybe I should admit it, there wasn’t like a method to the madness, you know it wasn’t like I was working as, you know an engineer in the orbiter processing facility and I was stalking other jobs. And you know around, oh I got to get my GS-14, you know I was never doing that, it was just oh look there’s a job over in project engineering doing this thing now, it’ll get me exposure to this other aspect of what goes in with getting spacecraft ready to fly, oh let’s try for that.

Host: Yeah.

Nicole Stott: And this, I mean it was, I think about it like, it’s kind of like being in the astronaut office, or if you’re training out at the Neutral Buoyancy Lab. There’s people in places where you work, where it’s just such a wonderful mix of like professional and personality. You know and when I do my presentations I show this picture of our crew of the Expedition 21 crew. And it’s when we had an overlap with crew change over, like three crew members coming up before three went back, so we had nine onboard. And it’s when Guy Laliberte was up on station, he was, it’s like the owner, founder of Cirque de Soleil and he was a spaceflight participant. And he considers himself a clown, so he brought us all these red clown noses, so we did these goofy crew pictures, you know with the clown noses on. But I show it because, I mean like who were the people you want to work with. I mean you want to work with the people that are going to have your back when it hits the fan, that you know they trust that you’ll have theirs. And then you want to work with people that you know you’re going to have a good time with too. And that’s what I felt every step of the way. And then throw in at Ellington, getting to fly on these really super cool airplanes, modified in ways that you would never want your normal airplane to be modified. And training astronauts to land a space shuttle, I mean I really, I really didn’t think it could get any, you know any better than that.

Host: Honestly, yeah, I mean you say maybe there was no method to your madness, but what it sounds like is the method was an opportunity presents itself and you seized it, you went for it. It sounds like that, you know I want to try this, I want to try this. Maybe it was just, it wasn’t maybe preplanned, but maybe you had that kind of thought to, I should go do something else, I mean I need to round this out. It’s that drive.

Nicole Stott: Yeah, and maybe that was underlying.

Host: Maybe, maybe.

Nicole Stott: Maybe that was underlying it a little bit, because I think honestly what I tried to pay attention to was what I was enjoying, and you know that started with flying I guess. You know I enjoyed flying, I enjoyed learning about flying, I think that introduced me to people and opportunities that maybe wouldn’t have otherwise.

Host: Uh-hum.

Nicole Stott: Same thing, you know working at Kennedy where, you know I’m working in the orbiter processing facility, but you’re seeing, you’re meeting the people that are coming, you know that you’re tying into to, OK it’s the vehicles moving from this place to the next place. And you’re just having that interaction and those opportunities present themselves.

Host: Yeah. Do you remember the call when you finally got it?

Nicole Stott: I do remember the call. I — that was the same day and so I was living here in Houston now. That was the same day that I was getting ready to go, it was right before I headed out to go do my check ride for my instrument rating for my pilot’s license, my instrument rating out here. And it was Bill Parsons who called me. And I knew Bill from working at Kennedy too. And so, we had a long conversation, and at the end Bill says, oh and you can’t tell anybody yet. [Laughter] Can’t tell anybody now and I’m like what do you mean Bill, you can’t tell anyone? And, yeah, we need to keep it hush-hush because we’re going to, you know make the announcement more around like an Apollo anniversary or something. And I’m like OK, can I tell my family at least, yes you can tell your family. And so here I am now having to get in the car and go out to do a check ride with this flight instructor and I’ve got this grin like from ear to ear on my face and he’s, he’s like most people come out here and they’re a little, you know hesitant, they’re a little worried about doing a flight like this and nervous. And I’m like yeah, I’m all those things, but I’m also very excited about something too and I’ll tell you like in a couple days or whatever and so. Yeah that was awesome.

Host: Wow, yeah you had to hold it in.

Nicole Stott: Yeah.

Host: Oh my gosh. So, tell me about the training process, you know this is another exposure to more things you said you already had a nice round experience from your working at Kennedy and that was invaluable. But what was it training leading up to that first flight?

Nicole Stott: Well there’s a lot of it, I mean it starts out of course being a lot like going back to school. Where, you know they want you to learn all about the systems on the spacecraft you’re going to fly. And for me at the time that was going to be shuttle and you know potentially station. And then you know in parallel learning a little bit about the Soyuz rocket because we were, we were partnering with our Russian partners to get, to station and the possibility of flying and if I was going to station that would be a rescue vehicle, so learning all about that. Russian language training, which I will tell you that was the most difficult part of astronaut training for me, was to learn another language.

Host: Hear that a lot.

Nicole Stott: I’ll tell you, you know some, I blame my mom cause somehow, I made it all the way through university without ever, not even the first Spanish class.

Host: Wow.

Nicole Stott: Nothing, I don’t think that’s possible these days, but nothing. And so, when you’re 40ish trying to learn your first language, that was, your brain, your brain does not support it. But, it worked out, we have great instructors here. And then, you know things like how to do a spacewalk, and how to fly the robotic arm, and you know how to work in a spaceship, and emergency training. I mean it was all of these things, which, you know the people that train us, the people that you’re working with in mission control, or on some of the other programs, I mean you’re getting exposure to every aspect of what you know life will be like in space, but also what it takes to make it happen. Which I think is really really important for astronauts to do. To not just be kind of in a bubble of astronauty kind of training.

Host: Yeah.

Nicole Stott: Where that’s just what you’re doing, but really to be out and be part of the workforce that’s making it happen.

Host: Yeah. And you were already a part of it too, that kind of probably helped a little bit because you were coming from a different part of NASA. Yeah.

Nicole Stott: I’ll tell you, I felt like, it was kind of like every step of the way with the jobs I had with NASA, I felt like, oh wow how could this be better than what the job I was just doing. Everyone seemed like it had something about it that was just, you know it was growing on the last thing that I had done. And that’s the way I kind of looked at the astronaut job too, because in reality there’s no guarantee you’ll ever fly. I mean things could happen, whatever, there’s not really a guarantee when you get selected as an astronaut that you’ll fly. So, you know for me I loved the job for that 10 percent of it that’s, or that 99 percent whatever that’s not flying in space too. And I think that might have been a lot to do with having the NASA engineering job already.

Host: Uh-hum.

Nicole Stott: And then, I don’t know, you know I just, you know I just feel so thankful to even have been considered. Because, you know that job for sure out at Ellington, you know at the time I’m thinking, what do you mean operations, I just worked for ten years in shuttle operation, I mean the day I got there I go OK this is what they mean. How do you work as a crew in a complex environment, like a real complex environment, like an airplane that’s being used to train astronauts to land space shuttles? And in a T-38 jet and things like that. And so, you know when I got that job that was 1998 and Steve Swanson got selected to be in the, that astronaut class. And he had that job, so I took his seat. And then when I got selected, a young man named Shane Kimbrough came in and took that seat. And so, I try to tell people, you know what, if you interview and you don’t get selected and they offer you a job, you take it. Cause they have something they want to see.

Host: Yeah.

Nicole Stott: And they know the place to put you to see it.

Host: Yeah.

Nicole Stott: And so, so you do it.

Host: Yeah. Well let’s get to the fun part, [Laughter], you said a lot of the job is not flying in space, let’s talk about flying in space. What was it like, that first flight, this was 2009 and your first flight I believe was a long duration mission?

Nicole Stott: It was. My first flight was Expedition 20 was the, and 21, so I overlapped two of the station Expedition missions. I flew to and from that flight on a space shuttle, so up on the space shuttle Discovery with the STS-128 crew. And home with STS-129, which is Atlantis. And I, that was so cool to do that, to be part of, you know really to be like part of these different crews.

Host: Yeah.

Nicole Stott: All for one mission. It’s funny when you look at the patches lined up it looks like four different missions and I guess in a way it kind of is, but I’m like no it’s like I got there this way, I got home this way and these were all the people I got to work with in between. And the shuttle flight getting there, that’s where I got to do the spacewalk that I did, that was with Danny Olivas who was part of the 128 crew. And it was just really cool how that all kind of worked and blended together.

Host: Yeah. I mean you worked so much with the orbiter in Kennedy, now you were there riding it and you got two, right you said went up in Discovery, you went down in Atlantis.

Nicole Stott: Yeah.

Host: You got this wide range of crews, we’re talking shuttle expedition, expedition, shuttle, right?

Nicole Stott: Uh-hum.

Host: So, it’s just this, it’s this gigantic experience and you get it to do it for a long time.

Nicole Stott: Yeah.

Host: So, I mean, what were the expectations going in and then how, what was the reality like?

Nicole Stott: Well I’ll just tell you, the expectations were high to begin with.

Host: Yeah.

Nicole Stott: But in, you know in, when I think about it now, I know we’re on radio, but you know imagine my hand as like in front of my face here, that was the expectation. And then I can’t reach my arm high enough for what it really it was, I mean every aspect of it.

Host: Yeah.

Nicole Stott: It didn’t matter and it’s kind of like the fortune cookie thing. You know you could just throw in space on the end of it, you know I’m cleaning the toilet in space, [Laughter], you know that’s an awesome thing to be able to do. And it was, I mean the overall experience it was just like this, I think about it now, it’s like just one big moment wrapped up, you know together.

Host: Yeah.

Nicole Stott: Because people ask, well what was your favorite thing about it? And I, you know certainly you can talk about, you know what it feels like to fly. You know, to float just effortlessly like that, that’s amazing. And you know the work we’re doing up there, which is all about improving life on Earth. And, I don’t know the view out the window you cannot beat that. It leaves an impression on you for the rest of your life. And I think about it now, it’s like all these complex things we do, you know we, it takes, it’s really technically challenging to get a spacecraft with people on it safely to space. And then to live and work on a space station and get safely home. And all the science that’s going on in between. And I came home and maybe I’m just simple, but I came home with really three simple lessons which were like, you know we live on a planet. And then you look out the window and there is no denying, it’s like oh my gosh we live on a planet in space together as earthlings, you know we’re all earthlings, that’s another one. And then that the only boarder that matters is that thin blue line of atmosphere that blankets us all. And it’s this reality check that just gets in you, and sticks with you, and just, you know like the who and where we are in space together. And, yeah, wish everybody could do it.

Host: We were, not too long ago we had a podcast episode with Frank White.

Nicole Stott: Uh-hum.

Host: About the overview effect.

Nicole Stott: Yes.

Host: And we got, we got to talking about that.

Nicole Stott: Yeah.

Host: He brought up your name specifically as someone who he believes based on the interview that you had with him, that you were profoundly changed. Based on, even what you’re saying right now, you’re profoundly changed, your perspective going up in space gave you a different perspective.

Nicole Stott: Absolutely and I think, I can’t imagine there’s any astronaut who doesn’t feel that in some way. Maybe isn’t like actively expressing it the same, but, yeah, I believe it happens to everyone. There is, and there’s this desire really to share it afterwards. I mean I think we all want to share our spaceflight experience, right? You want, I mean I want the people who don’t know there’s a space station to know there’s a space station. And then that, you know for as long as my 17-year-old sons been alive, there’s been people from 15 different countries working together peacefully successfully in space. Doing amazing things to improve life here on Earth. And I think we all find our way to communicate that. And that expression of what the perspective is, was, how it changes you, what influence it has. I think that’s part of sharing that experience. And it’s something for me that’s really, I think profoundly important because I want people in their day to day lives to be reflecting like I do now on the fact that, oh my gosh I live on a planet. I’m an earthling. You know, all this border stuff we’re talking about, here’s the one that matters. You know that we share, that we need to be, you know managing. [Laughter]

Host: It is, it does go deep, you know the phrase is simple, we live on a planet, but I can absolutely imagine, it is, it’s, we were talking about as something so finite, whether you’re talking about something more unified than maybe we are making it out to be culturally. So, it’s just, that maybe the view gave you some perspective, maybe you talked about what we’re doing is important to you. You think that space exploration is important maybe for that reason, maybe for others there’s a bunch of other things we can talk about.

Nicole Stott: Yeah.

Host: We talk about them a lot on this podcast for sure, but, yeah wanting to share that, I can see why that would be a drive for you.

Nicole Stott: Yeah, it really is. And, you know I wouldn’t extract myself onto seven million pounds of exploding, you know rocket fuel below me. You know with a seven-year-old son at home if I didn’t think, if I didn’t honestly believe that what we’re doing there is important.

Host: Uh-hum.

Nicole Stott: And we need to, we need to figure out more and more creative ways, which is what I love why you guys are doing this. You know, to share that experience. And, you know those three things about planet, earthling, thin blue line, I mean those are facts that we all know. We all learn, I know kindergarten maybe that we learn about planets first and that we happen to be on one. And, but I think we don’t tend to think about it in our day to day lives all that much. And I think if we did, it’s one of those things that can bring this whole perspective shift back to Earth too. Where you don’t have to go to space to know these things. You can look up at the stars at night and feel the same way about kind of our place in the universe and be humbled by it. And in awe and wonder and all of those things.

Host: Yeah. Did, you know this thought process that you’re explaining now is, did that happen on your first spaceflight, maybe your second, maybe it, maybe you have the two spaceflights, came home, sat on it for a little bit and then it hit you. Do you remember when?

Nicole Stott: I think, absolutely during the first one.

Host: OK.

Nicole Stott: And then I think it’s one of those things that’s a little bit overwhelming and, so there’s a struggle to really kind of communicate it and I probably still don’t even communicate it very effectively, but to find ways to make it relatable. And that’s why I think coming back to facts we all know is a nice way to do that. You know to kind of say, hey we live on a planet, yeah and well no duh, you know yeah, we live on a planet, OK hey we live on a planet in space together. You know there’s nothing better to think about what’s, you know hey your local is global. You know your neighborhood is a planet.

Host: Yeah.

Nicole Stott: And if, just the inter-connectivity of it, the you know nothing that happens on this side of the planet doesn’t affect the people on the other side, or other life on it that we share it with. I mean that’s a huge thing to bring in to like your reality.

Host: Right.

Nicole Stott: And be thinking about regularly.

Host: So, not to jump ahead from some of other things you’ve accomplished, but this is I think the nice transition. You’re talking about wanting to express that, how do I, how do I tell this message and even now you’re saying, maybe I don’t have the right words.

Nicole Stott: Yeah.

Host: But I know you’re very into art. I know this is a way for you to express this maybe exactly what you’re feeling. You have to find an outlet somehow. Maybe it’s not speeches, maybe it’s not hour-long podcasts, maybe it’s something visual. So, what do you try to put, what kind of art do you do and what do you try to put into it to say some sort of message?

Nicole Stott: Well I, most of my art that I do personally is, at this point it’s based on images that I took from space.

Host: Oh.

Nicole Stott: And Earth observations, some space crafty things too, but, and that all started really with, I had the chance to paint while I was in space, so I did a watercolor painting on my first flight. Just brought up this watercolor kit, because I thought it would be fun and be something to do that I like doing down on Earth. And when I was thinking about retiring from NASA, which in, from the astronaut it was very difficult decision to consider.

Host: Uh-hum.

Nicole Stott: And in that once I came with the warm fuzzy of, you know yes there are other things I want to do too. I kept coming back to that painting in space. And thinking, OK how do I uniquely share this experience? And that painting was the, kind of the key to me, I knew I was going to paint myself afterwards, but if I could paint and then engage with audiences that don’t maybe think about what we’re doing in space. You know and at that point really with the motivation of getting people to know what we’re doing together in space. And about how it’s all about improving life on Earth. And there is this space station, you know that art would be a way to do that, to reach audiences that might not know. But then I can tell you, they’re the ones that are then, they got the apps spot station, ISS tracker on their phone. And whether they liked my art or not, you know they want to know.

Host: Yeah.

Nicole Stott: That they’ll be able to see this thing now, coming over their head and watch it and know there’s six people onboard there.

Host: Uh-hum.

Nicole Stott: So, I think that’s a really powerful thing. I think it’s why stuff like this, podcasts and other kind of creative outlets are really important for us sharing what’s going on up there.

Host: Uh-hum.

Nicole Stott: But then it became something that I now like really consider my mission in life, like I discovered, rediscovered the next mission, which fortunately allows me to tie my love for space exploration and art together. And, you know and that’s been with what we started out calling the space suit art project. Which started here in Houston in one hospital and has grown to working with kids in over 45 countries now. And painting, just little paintings that these kids do and then our spacesuit company ILC Dover has volunteered and they sow these suits together into art space suits. And thankful to the ISS program office too for allowing some of their discretionary cargo to be used for a couple of them that have made it to the station and back.

Host: Wow.

Nicole Stott: And had exchanges with the kids that worked on them and, you know, and these are children that are in, you know pediatric cancer centers, refugee centers. You know really in places where you hope and pray it’s the worst thing they’ll ever go through in their entire lives. And you come in with the inspiration of spaceflight and then you throw a little art in the mix. And, you know these kids are sitting up straighter, they’re talking to you about their futures, it’s like they’re transcending that experience, it’s not like they’re being distracted, I mean they really in a very healthful way are kind of getting lifted up out of there for a little while.

Host: Yeah.

Nicole Stott: And, you know and then to see their art become part of something that’s bigger, that’s part of something that other kids who might be going through a similar challenge as they are. It’s really powerful. And to see anything in space is really too you know.

Host: Yeah. We talk about if you’re trying to engage kids, even we have programs here at NASA, a lot of them are more technical focused.

Nicole Stott: Uh-hum.

Host: You’re doing these education challenges, you’re building rovers and solving these puzzles. And there is a need for that definitely.

Nicole Stott: Absolutely.

Host: But, where do you think, what kinds of gaps do you think art fills, you know we have all these different avenues to have these [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math] STEM outreach thing, we talk about [Science, Technology, Engineering, Art, and Math] STEAM sometimes and adding in that art element, what do you think that adds to the perspective and maybe loops in people that otherwise wouldn’t be looped in?

Nicole Stott: Well, I think what it, I do think it becomes a little bit more of an inclusive kind of activity, but I think it allows whoever is participating to use their whole brain. You know, and I mean I think about it with my son in school and I’ve watched it. Especially with the stem movement, which I’m a total supporter of, but not at the expense of like arts and humanities and things.

Host: Sure.

Nicole Stott: But you’ll see kids get kind of funneled one way, because oh this boys good at math, or this girl is good at science and then they just, they want to funnel them as one way, when it’s like, hey we need our kids to be problem solvers. And this creative element is really part of problem solving. And so even in these robotic competitions what I like, even if they’re just labeling it as a stem activity, for the most part I’ve seen they have to come up with their mission patch. Or they have to kind of creatively describe what their robot is going to do, or they maybe paint on it or draw, you know something. And so, I think there is, this element that way. But I think art is just this way to communicate complex things that we might not be able to otherwise. We do it, it’s embedded in science everywhere, I mean look at those beautiful Hubble images that come back. I mean, I’m guessing if you flew out and looked at that nebula, it doesn’t necessarily look like that to our naked eye. But, the scientists need to learn and see something about it, so they color that image for what UV is there. Or, and then it’s presented in this beautiful way that their brains understand too.

Host: Yeah.

Nicole Stott: You know the ones and zeroes can only go so far with us, I mean you have to have it presented in a way that makes sense to us and, the artistic creative seems to do that a little bit better.

Host: That’s right, yeah. I like that idea of engaging a brain, maybe you were talking about besides the rover competition, besides this adding this artistic element, maybe it’s visual, maybe it’s otherwise. It seemed like there were elements of self-expression in there. Being able to put yourself into some mission, it seems like there was elements of unification there. Where the team is coming up with something together. Creating, you know, you put your idea down on this patch, but someone else puts their idea and now you’re, now you’re a team. There’s this, there’s certain elements there that maybe the rover challenge by itself will fill in the gaps using your whole brain, you’re putting in the other elements, that’s very important.

Nicole Stott: Yeah, I think that’s true, I mean we do it here, we do it with our mission crews here.

Host: Yeah.

Nicole Stott: You know we design patches, we lay out, you know how we’re going to run, like personally within our mission run it. Pretty much everything we’re doing is about teamwork, so you know that’s important. And I think, you know you talk about the self-expression, the fact that, you know on the one hand you’re like, oh I’m sorry you have to do that. But on the other hand, it’s like so good for them. You know the kids when they’re doing these projects and they always have to present it. You know they always have to present it. And to be able to present something technical like a robot, a rover, a science experiment, whatever it is. To an audience that might be your parents, or teachers from other schools, or the local community. They have to think creatively about how they’re going to do that too, they just can’t put up the drawing of their rover and say, here’s what it does. They have to, you know creatively communicate it, which is really fun to see too how they do that.

Host: Yeah. It seems like, creativity is the word that I’m hearing a lot when it comes to, you know if we’re thinking about artistic expression maybe filling in that creativity.

Nicole Stott: Yeah.

Host: But, I mean I know creativity is part of, you said problem solving. And I think that’s a big one, you know we even see it even today, I think one of my, one of the stories I like to tell is. I, so I do commentary in mission control.

Nicole Stott: OK, yep.

Host: I did one for, for a spacewalk where during the spacewalk they inadvertently lost a blanket.

Nicole Stott: Uh-hum.

Host: But they needed to cover something up. So, everybody came together, they had another blanket that they took off of the same spacewalk and they create, like a team on the ground came together and said, how can this blanket fit in this space, that it wasn’t supposed to?

Nicole Stott: Right.

Host: And so, they had to open up their entire brain and think, how can we do this, because it wasn’t meant to do that, and they had to come up with all the procedures on the fly. And I just think that is, that’s one of the most brilliant things that I think has happened, definitely in my career for seeing what NASA engineers are capable of.

Nicole Stott: Yeah. It’s, I mean it’s all around us here there’s no doubt. And then, you know on the space station, just going to that other end of like art, and music, and creativity. I mean for the very first days of spaceflight, art has been there. You know like say Alexei Leonov with his colored pencils doing orbital sunrises and, you know and every single astronaut whether they were photographer or not, before they flew they become one.

Host: Yeah.

Nicole Stott: And musical instruments, you know I think on station now what there’s a keyboard, there’s at least one guitar, there’s a flute, you know Kjell Lindgren brought up what he brought up as bagpipes with him. You know you got to love your crew mate if they’re going to let them play bagpipes on the station. And, you know Karen Nyberg, oh my gosh Karen, the most talented artist I’ve ever met in my life and that’s everything. You know drawing, painting, musical instruments, her dad is a really wonderful artist too. And her mom taught her to sew when she was really young and she did quilt squares on station. And sewed a little stuffed dinosaur for her son out of scrap, you know trash material that was up there. I mean I think it’s really about, you know we are –talking about human spaceflight. And these are human things to be doing. I mean it’s part of who we are and if we’re going to be living there, you’re not just going to be doing the technical work, you’re, you have to have an outlet yourself for, you know the way you’re going to remember the experience and how you’re going to share it with others.

Host: So, what do you think is the right balance then? There’s a lot of technical work, there’s a lot of studying, a lot of different things that you as an astronaut have to memorize and know and be aware of. And there’s a certain way of thinking, so how do you balance this technical, this logical way of thinking with the creative? And that form of self-expression, where’s the balance there?

Nicole Stott: Well you know I don’t know if this is answer you’re looking for, but I mean had the opportunity to sit on the other side of table when it comes to selecting astronauts before retiring. And I think, you know I think when a person gets to that point where they’re coming for an interview. You already know that they satisfied the educational requirements to be there, their jobs, you know did what they needed to do for them to be qualified to be there. But what you’re looking for is, OK who is this person? What, you know what do they enjoy doing? How do they apply what they’ve learned in school and how they work to real life? I mean what is there, who are they as a whole person too? And so, you want to know about their rock climbing, or their art that they do, or the volunteer work they do at Habitat for Humanity, I mean whatever it is there’s some aspect of that human being that is outside of the technical school they did and the technical job that they had. Because at this point we’re just not, we don’t have enough flights, we don’t have enough spacecraft to, you know open up the pool of who we interview. I mean that’s going to happen. I think we’ve already, we just, we keep expanding that. And you know at this point we’ve got to find those things in the people that we’re hiring to be astronauts. And I think they’re out there, I mean I don’t doubt that every astronaut in some way is, has this creative, they might not say it that way, but they’re doing something that is not what you would normally think of as technical.

Host: Huh. Well at the time of that we’re going to release this recording, some of the astronaut candidates will have graduated to be astronauts.

Nicole Stott: Yes.

Host: And they’re going to start looking ahead towards flying here soon. What advice do you have for them as they start getting ready for some of their first flights?

Nicole Stott: Well it certainly have to keep up with whatever training they have you going through. And take advantage of it. You know they’ll be opportunities where an extra sim comes up and you could get in it. And see, oh what’s the day in a life of, like on whatever spacecraft they might be flying on, it’s going to be like, and the opportunity to work with different people. I mean really take advantage of the opportunity to work with different people. Get to know your ground team. I mean absolutely know the people that are going to be mission control for you, know and remember the people that trained you, I mean really that helps prepare you to get to the point of being assignable. And you know pay attention to, I think about this like from a family standpoint. One of the things that my husband and I tried to do, cause our son was so young when I flew the first time, is we wanted him to feel like he was part of the crew. So, whenever I can get him out to a training event, or to meet the people I was flying with, or any of that I would do that. And that gives them a connection to the experience you’re going to have when you’re, when you’re away in space. And, so to not forget that those kinds of things are important as well. And those, I think all of those things really are kind of the human side of it is, and that makes me think back to that paint kit that I took to space. I mean I was so focused on my first flight to making sure my checklists were together. And that I knew what my tasks were going to be, and I had all the information to do that. I mean I am so thankful to Mary Jane Anderson who was my flight crew equipment support person. Who said, hey Nicole you know, you’re going to be living up there. You know think about what you’ll do in that spare time, which won’t be a lot. You know you’re busy, but there will be spare time, you’re living there, is there stuff that you might be able to take with you that you could use up there? And I would tell people to consider that, you know consider that you’ll be living there too, and you want to appreciate that time as well.

Host: Wonderful. Nicole this was a fascinating conversation, I really appreciate your time for coming on the podcast.

Nicole Stott: For me too, thank you so much.

[ Music ]

Host: Hey thanks for sticking around, hope you enjoyed this great conversation we had today here with Nicole Stott. Check out some of our other Episodes of Houston We Have a Podcast at NASA.gov/podcasts. Along with some of the other podcasts we have across NASA and other areas such as planetary science and some of the stuff they’re doing at Jet Propulsion Laboratory and Kennedy Space Center, we’ve got a bunch of them now, so check them out there, NASA.gov/podcasts. You can go to social media and talk to us on the NASA Johnson Space Center pages of Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Use the hashtag #askNASA on your favorite platform to submit an idea for the show. Just make sure to mention it’s for Houston We Have a Podcast. This episode was recorded on December 9th, 2019. Thanks to Alex Perryman, Pat Ryan, Norah Moran, Belinda Pulido, Greg Wiseman and Gordon Andrews. Thanks again to Nicole Stott for taking the time to come on the show. Hope you enjoyed it, give us a rating and some feedback on whatever platform you’re listening to, to tell us how we did. We’ll be back next week.