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Throwback Thursday Featuring Veteran Astronaut Steve Smith

Season 1Jan 4, 2018

The rebroadcast of a conversation with veteran astronaut Steven Smith, former Associate Director for International Space Station Science Directorate at NASA’s Ames Research Center in Silicon Valley.

Steve Smith

The rebroadcast of a conversation with veteran astronaut Steven Smith, former associate director for International Space Station Science Directorate at NASA’s Ames Research Center in Silicon Valley. For more information on the ISS, visit www.nasa.gov/station or tweet @Space_Station. You can also find more info on NASA spinoff technologies at http://spinoff.nasa.gov/. Steven Smith’s bio is at http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/smith-s.pdf

Transcript

Steve Smith

Matthew C. Buffington (Host): You’re listening to NASA in Silicon Valley, a conversational podcast series from NASA’s Ames Research Center to chat with the various scientists, researchers, engineers, and all-around cool people at NASA. Kicking off the New Year, we are trying out something different and a bit of a throwback. We have been doing this podcast for just about a year and a half. Back when we first started off, I honestly was a bit concerned about how long we could keep this up. We have had 74 episodes talking to a wide range of guests. But for the folks that have just started listening to the podcast, you might have missed some of our earlier episodes. So as a special treat for this week, we are doing a throwback Thursday to August 3, 2016, which was only our second episode of the podcast.

This conversation is with local hero and veteran NASA astronaut Steve Smith. At the time, he was still here at Ames as the Associate Director for International Space Station Science. Steve has since retired, but still comes back every once in a while for special events. Once you leave NASA, you never really leave NASA. We talk all about how he joined NASA and those early days working on the Shuttle program.

Before jumping into the episode, I do want to tease another special treat that we will have on the podcast for next week. On Friday, January 12, we will launch off a series of special podcast episodes on the Twitch live streaming platform. You will be able to watch the podcast live on Twitch.TV/NASA and even participate in the live chat.

But for today, let’s listen to our 75th episode and rebroadcast of our conversation with veteran NASA astronaut, Steve Smith.

[Music]

Host: Originally what brought you to the area, what brought you to Silicon Valley, but also just NASA in general? Did you always want to work for NASA, always wanted to be an astronaut?

Steve Smith: I grew up in a technology family. My dad worked for IBM for 50 years. He was an electrical engineer. So, he brought his work home, every once in a while brought pieces of computers home, and took us into the IBM lab sometimes to test some of the equipment — for example, the rapid transit system in the Bay Area, we would go test the ticket machines before they were installed. So, I grew up in a technology family, so it was pretty natural.

Host: And here, in this area, right?

Steve Smith: Correct, yes. He worked at IBM San Jose.

Host: Wow. So, you went to high school out here, but then you continued onto Stanford.

Steve Smith: Correct.

Host: Wow, so did you always — was that the goal, always trying to head to NASA, or did you want to follow your dad into IBM? What was your thought process?

Steve Smith: Since I was born in 1958, that was the first growth in commercial airline travel, and so we lived not too far from San Jose Airport. So, my parents would take me out to watch the airplanes take off and land, because that was the cool thing to do, as parents did then. They were always looking for something interesting like that.

And when I’d see those airplanes taking off and landing from right near the runway, which you could do in those days, it made me want to be a pilot. And then, when I was about 10 or 11 years old, we started the Apollo Program. And so, I was watching the moon landings on the black-and-white television at home. And I said hey, flying airplanes, cool outdoor adventurism in cool places like outer space, combine those two jobs — why don’t I be an astronaut?

Host: Oh, wow, so it was like from a young age?

Steve Smith: Oh, yes.

Host: It was a singular vision; I’m going to be in space one day?

Steve Smith: Yes, we probably have 25 drawings I did between third and maybe sixth grade of astronauts and rocket ships, astronauts doing space walks in crayon and pencil. That was kind of what I was drawing then. It was my dream, and my parents saved all those drawings, and we still have them. They’re great to take for example to schools and show kids that dreams come true.

Host: So, when you started off in Stanford, in terms of choosing your major, and even when you went to graduate school and everything, that was all singularly focused, how do I get into space?

Steve Smith: Correct. Along the lines, though, I knew the odds were hard, and I thought I better also become a really good engineer so I can work in the space program or the electronics industry as an engineer. But in parallel, always dreaming of flight.

So, I started taking flight lessons at Stanford, trying to get the aviation part stronger. I thought about going into the military and flying there, but in the end decided to keep going on the engineering path and in parallel developed this adventurism path with flying airplanes, learning to scuba dive, learning to do advanced scuba diving and advanced aerobatics in airplanes, things like. So, building the whole skill set.

Host: Both physically and intellectually, getting both sides.

Steve Smith: Correct.

Host: Wow. So, how old were you when you first started taking flight lessons?

Steve Smith: I didn’t take flight lessons until I was in college, but I do remember a really good friend whose father worked for General Motors. They had an airplane, and so they took me out to San Jose Airport on two flights to fly a small airplane around the San Jose area. I’ll never forget that as a problem 15-16 year old flying an approach into San Jose Airport in a small airplane, and actually being able to control the airplane and watch all the instruments respond to the various instrument landing systems.

Host: And knowing what they mean.

Steve Smith: And learning what they meant from Mr. Dickman, a great man, great influence.

Host: And so, when you finished school, before joining NASA, did you have a job in between then, or was it like you applied to be an astronaut?

Steve Smith: No, probably predictably, I joined Big Blue, IBM, because my dad had been there. It was one of the model technology companies at the time, still is. It was a great place to learn how to be an engineering manager and how to learn basic engineering principles. It was an incredibly famous and solid company, so it was the natural place to go.

But even right after I started working at IBM, I was already sending in the application to NASA Astronaut Program about every two years. And I was getting rejected.

Host: Really? How many times did you put in?

Steve Smith: Four times. Four times, don’t remind me. It wasn’t until the fifth time. But eventually, well, eventually though I decided the only way I was going to become an astronaut was if I joined NASA. And my parents had also instilled in me a sense of community contributions and supporting your community and your country. And I saw the ability to do that by working for NASA, where we make people’s lives better every day. It was a good combination, and it worked. I worked for NASA for two years, and they said, why don’t you become one of the astronauts?

Host: Really, so you didn’t ask — I mean, you didn’t actually apply to be an astronaut, you applied to be an engineer and work. Was that when you moved to Houston, or were you working here?

Steve Smith: Correct. Between the fourth and — between the third and fourth reactions, I decided I’d better think about going to work for NASA to learn more about the space shuttle and how they operate space vehicles and things like that.

So, after the fourth rejection, I moved to Houston to join the mission operations directorate as what’s called a flight controller. It’s the people who prepare and operate the shuttle during the flights.

Host: Wow, so talk about that time. What was going through your head when you’re driving down to Houston — or even more so, not necessarily when you’re going to Houston to start the job, but from that moment they tell you, all right, we’re going to put you in this program?

Steve Smith: Right. You know, leaving the Silicon Valley and leaving IBM for government service in Houston, Texas, was a huge change.

Host: I was going to say, the temperature change too.

Steve Smith: Temperature change, and just the geography of the area. And, going to a government job, I took a pretty good pay cut to go work for the government at the time. But, the dream was there, and I always knew I could come back, but I knew I would also regret not giving it a shot. So, I went to NASA in Houston for a couple years, got to know what the process was like, got to know some of the astronauts, and it just bolstered my application that fifth time.

Host: When you start the training as an astronaut, and you go through the rigorous, is it a cohort, a group of people that go through training together and it dwindles off after a time, or how does that work?

Steve Smith: No, when they name an astronaut class, you go in as a group. We were 19 Americans that went in together in 1992. And you train together for a year or two, and you really become close to each other. It’s just like a sports team or in a business department, working together to achieve a common goal. So, you really bonded to each other.

They hopefully have rooted out some of the people before they select the astronauts, people who for example might have a physical ailment they’re not aware of, or claustrophobia, or might not be good working with other people, or might always want to be the leader and not a follower. So, they try and root out some of the folks before they select us. And the 19 of us got along great, it was great training.

Host: And how long after the training is complete, how long until you’re — it’s like okay, you’re in this shuttle mission, or you’re — how long until?

Steve Smith: Historically, it’s varied widely. Some astronauts have flown just a couple years after they became astronauts; some have waited 17 years, for example. I believe Deke Slayton waited 17 years. So, a lot of the factors that influence that duration have nothing to do about the astronaut themselves. It has to do with the status of the program. For example, the ladies and gentlemen that have been picked in the last couple classes, their timing wasn’t that good in respect to the shuttles stopped flying, where we flying six or seven people four, five, six, seven, eight times a year — now we’re flying on the Soyuz until our next vehicle is ready, and it’s a smaller number of people per year.

So, it’s not a reflection on the person, it’s a reflection on timing and luck. I tell people that a lot of being selected as an astronaut, and the experiences as an astronaut, and as an employee at NASA, often depend on luck and timing.

Host: So, when was the first — how many missions did you do?

Steve Smith: I went on four, and the first one, I was selected in 1992, and then I flew in the fall of 1994, and it was just an incredible experience. Almost too much to absorb, really, in that first two weeks.

Host: I just kind of imagine, you know, we talked about — and we’ll get to the International Space Station, some of the science we put in. Imagine that moment of you sitting on top of, or in the shuttle, or on top of a rocket for that matter, and it takes off, and the G-force change and everything. Especially for your first time, I can’t even imagine what’s going through your head at that point.

Steve Smith: My first flight was a pad abort, believe it or not, the last pad abort the shuttle program had. It was in August of 1994. So, the engine started, and usually they run for six seconds, and then the solid rocket boosters light, and you take off. At five seconds, the computers decided one of the engines wasn’t ready and shut it down. So, the whole shuttle all of the sudden goes silent, and it’s swaying back and forth, and there’s alarms going off.

So, it was pretty exciting, especially for the families watching from three miles away. But one point I would like to make is that people would be surprised to hear that most of the astronauts, it’s almost overwhelming to be in the cockpit right before launch, and you thinking about a lot of things, but one of the things you’re generally not thinking about is fear, I think most astronauts would say.

Host: It becomes clinical at that point?

Steve Smith: Well, it’s like another simulation. There’s a natural defense mechanism to think, nothing’s going to happen to me. You have a job to do. But the families are the real heroes. They’re three miles away, they’re going to suffer greatly if the thing doesn’t go right, and they’re the ones that don’t get all the glory and attention the astronauts get. So, it’s pretty common to state the mommies and daddies and the siblings and the spouses are really the ones that are the heroes of the astronaut part of NASA.

Host: Wow. And so, when you get up there, I remember a conversation we had at one point in time where you were talking about some of the science that gets up on the space station. You were like, as an astronaut, this is great, we get to go in the air and do these cool science experiments. What was that like when you’re in the space station, or when you’re up there actually doing science, you feel that zero gravity? What’s going through your head?

Steve Smith: Well,I tell people, being in space is like a magic show, because everything’s floating around, you’re going 17,500 miles an hour, you’re seeing the sun rise 16 times per day and set 16 times per day. And you get to do this world-class science in this world-class laboratory that very few people have the opportunity to visit. So, it’s really almost like a magic show. You can’t hardly believe it.

And in fact, even now, 10 years after my last flight, it’s almost hard to imagine that I was there when I see it overfly at night. About once a month or so, you can see the space station fly over your community at night. In fact, I saw it recently at a large gathering I was hosting, and people said, do you remember being up there? What was it like? And I said, it’s almost hard to associate being there.

Host: Does it feel like it was a dream, almost?

Steve Smith: Exactly, it really is. And I think people would say that about a lot of the significant events in their life. A lot of times, you’re in the moment, fighting, making it work, and working really hard, like parenting for example. And all of the sudden, it’s past — or the wedding or the high school graduation or buying your first car.

Host: And it becomes a blur of memory.

Steve Smith: It’s almost shocking to people to hear us describe it like that, but for example, traveling eight times the speed of the bullet. I can sit here today and say, I just can’t really fathom that. You can imagine if for example the space station flew by on 101 out here, later today, you and I went out there to watch it fly by. And it weighs 100 tons, it’s the size of a football field.

If it flew by at 17,500 miles an hour, Mach 25, five miles per second, we wouldn’t even see it. It would go by, and we’d say, when is it going to pass by? And I’d say Matt, it just did. It’s not physically possible, because of all the heating and stuff, but theoretically, it’s the numbers you can’t imagine.

Host: Wow. And then, so when you’re up there, what’s the science that sticks out to your head that was really memorable?

Steve Smith: One of the feelings the astronauts have, it’s a real privilege to work on these amazing experiments that really smart people on earth have devised. And we’re privileged to work on them in these amazing conditions of zero gravity, for example. And it’s very exciting to be part of it. It’s also nerve-wracking, because you don’t want to make a mistake, but you’re really the hands and the eyes of these incredible people, many of which come for example from the Bay Area. And you’re working on the experiments for them.

So, it’s a real privilege, it’s a little nerve-wracking. But in the end, we know that each experiment we’re doing is making people’s lives better, and that is a huge, huge boost to what we’re doing and the feeling of gratitude, like we’re contributing to the betterment of our society.

Host: When you came back, before coming up here to Ames, leaving Houston and coming over here, you did a stint overseas.

Steve Smith: Correct.

Host: Can you talk about that a little bit?

Steve Smith: Correct, I was privileged to be in Houston for 14 years — actually, let’s cut that. I was privileged to be a Johnson Space Center employee for 14 years in Houston, Texas, as a space shuttle astronaut and flight controller. Then I served for us in Europe as our diplomat to the European Space Agency.

As you may know, the space program is really all about international diplomacy, too. Working together at the space station involves more than 20 countries, for example. So, as an engineer and experienced operator of space vehicles, I was sent to Europe and was there for 12 years to be our diplomat, because they’re doing the same thing. It was exciting, really exciting.

Host: And so did you always have — I mean, after you finished overseas, did you always have the goal of wanting to come back to Silicon Valley, come back to your roots?

Steve Smith: Absolutely.

Host: That was always the goal?

Steve Smith: When I left in 1989, I thought someday I hope to come back to the Ames Research Center in California, because that’s where my roots were, family were. I enjoy all the things you can do in the Bay Area and nearby. So, I always wanted to come back here. Ames is quite different than the Johnson Space Center in terms of their focus, so I was a little nervous I wouldn’t be able to fit in, but it’s been fantastic.

Host: So, as you’ve come back to Ames, talk a little more about your role, the things you’re working on here with the space station, and how that fits in.

Steve Smith: Sure. Well, Ames is really well-located in the center of Silicon Valley, and I can talk about that a little bit later. But in terms of what we do here at Ames, we do many things. It’s really a wide variety of projects that are worked on here.

I’m involved with our space station efforts to take experiments that have to do largely with biology to the space station and make them successful. And that involves using some of my operational experience, it also uses some of my diplomatic skills to try and make sure we get funding, and that we use it correctly, and that the incredible scientists and engineers here understand what the constraints are in terms of schedule and politics and funding to make it successful.

So, it’s not only going to make the current experiments we do in space successful from Ames, but also to try and find new experiments to do in space. For example, there are people here at Ames working on how we do laundry in space to use less water.

Host: Okay, how do you do laundry in space?

Steve Smith: Right now, we throw everything out.

Host: Really?

Steve Smith: Correct, yeah. The clothes don’t get quite as dirty, because they’re not pressing against your body, so you can actually wear them a little bit longer, but in general when we’re done with them, we put them into a vehicle that burns up on reentry. But we can’t do that on the way to Mars. So, right now, we can send things to the space station quite often during the year, so we can send new clothes for example.

But on the way to Mars, which is a multi-month mission both ways — for example, using current propulsion techniques, it’s about nine months each way. So, you really can’t resupply as much, so we’re going to have to learn how to clean laundry to get to Mars. Correct. That’s one of our smaller problems in terms of getting to Mars, by the way.

Host: Among a slew of many problems that people are working on.

Steve Smith: And there are benefits to that technology. If we can figure out how to use less water to do laundry, there’s an obvious spinoff to help people on earth, where we can use less energy and resources like water to do laundry on earth.

Host: It’s like the quintessential example of efficiency.

Steve Smith: Exactly, absolutely.

Host: All the resources we take for granted here, at the space station, you’ve got to make it work.

Steve Smith: Exactly, and going to Mars, it’s going to be even harder.

Host: Wow. So, if I understand it correctly, coming out of Ames is like 50 different projects we’re working on for ISS?

Steve Smith: Correct. Somewhere between 40 and 50. They span a wide variety of interest areas, but we are doing a lot for the United States, to get our names on these experiments.

Host: I always say, that was one of my favorite meetings when I first came in, was you sat there and you went through PowerPoint slides of all 50 you kind of went through — and you’d think that’d get boring after a while, but you’re sitting there like, we’re doing that? That’s cool. That’s fascinating.

Steve Smith: It’s pretty amazing. One of the first things we’re trying to do is get a list of everything we’re doing at Ames to upper management here, so they can understand and be proud of the wide variety of things we do here.

Host: Wow. So, what are some of the major programs right now going — some of the major science that Ames is doing and working up through the space station that the average person wouldn’t really be familiar with them?

Steve Smith: A large number of them are related to space biology, and what that means is how organisms like human bodies operate in zero gravity. Thad’s one of the real expertises here at Ames Research Center. A lot of them are deep medical scientific-type experiments to understand how organisms react. And if we can figure out how they react, we might be able to better life on earth, because it helps us solve a problem on earth, but we can also help send people beyond earth’s orbit, for example to Mars.

We also launch a lot of miniature satellites from the space station that try different techniques, technologies. And so, Ames has a real expertise in small satellites.

But we also have several basic technology experiments people are working on like the laundry in space, that we will work on, on the space station. Another good example is how you compact trash efficiently and possibly reuse it for things like building things. There’s one technology demonstrator here at the Ames Research Center that’s trying to figure out, what do you do with trash? Is there something we can do better with it than just throw it away?

Host: Yeah, instead of sending it to go burn up in the atmosphere, is there something else we can do?

Steve Smith: Correct. We have to think like that, because Mars is a long way away. And so, if we’re going to be gone for two years, for example, we have to think about how we can do better with trash and potentially reuse it. We have to be better with our use of water, we have to be able to do laundry in space. We have to be able to offset the negative effects of radiation, things like that. It’s a huge number of challenges.

Host: Wow. Even just thinking the space biology part, just thinking of, so much of gravity you just take for granted, the way your blood flows, your eyeball for that matter. I even heard that when people go into space, they even have almost a bit of motion sickness.

Steve Smith: Correct.

Host: How was that?

Steve Smith: It’s not very pleasant.

Host: Is it like a car sickness? Like, you feel not too different, I’m guessing.

Steve Smith: I can speak first-hand, that’s exactly what it’s like. I think I’ve read about 60-70 percent of astronauts suffer from motion sickness when they’re in space the first few days. The large percentage of those people eventually get better. It’s just like having sea legs, you just get used to it. It’s like being on a boat, you feel bad for an hour or a day, but eventually you get better. There are some people who never get better.

Host: I can’t imagine spending an entire mission every day being sick.

Steve Smith: Yeah. Luckily, it’s a small percentage of people who continue that, but some other physiology changes. Your eyes actually change shape a bit because of the lack of gravity, so we have people who have different vision on orbit than they do on earth. So, we’ve had to come up with special glasses, for example, that had to be adapted.

One of the real negative effects of being in space is the loss of bone density and muscle mass because you’re not exercising to move around in zero gravity. You just fly all over the place, so your body just atrophies. So, we have to exercise intently. I believe the average space station astronaut works out about an hour and a half per day for their entire mission, just to try and keep it going.

Host: Just to keep it going.

Steve Smith: And so, when we go to Mars, that’s probably not practical to take a large exercise machine with you for that large journey.

Host: Especially in a small capsule, depending on — let alone the space constraints, you need enough space to exercise and keep yourself . . .

Steve Smith: Exactly. So, is there some other way that we can fight muscle and bone atrophy, hopefully maybe through medications for example? And just in the last month there’s been an experiment on orbit with a large pharmaceutical company looking at that, to see if we can use some kind of medication to fight that.

And the spinoff benefits for people on earth is really obvious. There are people who suffer on earth from bone atrophy, for muscle atrophy. So, if these medications can work for the astronauts, we can help people on earth. And so, that’s what we call spinoff, and there’s been thousands of them since NASA started in the late ’50s.

Host: Cool. So, if somebody’s looking for more information on the space station and the stuff you’re working on, probably where is the best place to go? The website, NASA.gov?

Steve Smith: I would start at NASA.gov, and there’s a tab for the International Space Station. You can spend hours on that website looking at the different technologies and things we’re doing. There’s also a specific spinoff website. I believe it’s Spinoff.NASA.gov.

Host: Really? So, it just talks about the different technologies?

Steve Smith: Correct. I think it has the top 20 or 30 spinoffs from the entire space program. And it’s not Velcro and Tang, neither of which came from the space program.

Host: That was one of the first things I learned. Those are myths, right?

Steve Smith: Yeah, there’s lots of technologies that influence people’s lives right now that they don’t recognize coming from the space program. In fact, one of the major ones has to do with microelectronics. Some people say and conclude that our drive to go to the moon in the late ’60s and early ’70s drove the miniaturization of electronics, because computers in those days were gigantic, so the electronics had to be miniaturized. Look where we are now with miniaturized electronics.

So, if it wasn’t the major driving force, it was clearly one of the key ones that drove us to where we are today with this incredible . . .

Host: To force that technology. It goes into being efficient, small space, small limitations, and crazy innovations come from that.

Steve Smith: Correct.

Host: That’s excellent. Thanks for coming on over. I’m sure you’re going to be our Jeopardy champion in no time. We keep bringing you back, because we could sit here and talk for hours about this. This is fascinating.

Steve Smith: Well, I really enjoy talking about it. It’s been a great career, and NASA really is making people’s lives better. And to have us all working together in that atmosphere makes it a really rewarding place to be.

Host: Excellent, thanks a lot, Steve.

Steve Smith: My pleasure.